Talk:Arain/Archive 1

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FOR THE ATTENTION OF SATBIR SINGH

Satbir, I have already informed you that it is in your best interests not to resort to personal insults, particularly accusations of racism – I abhor racism in all its forms, have experienced it’s negative effects, and if you hurl this accusation in my direction again, I will waste no time in reporting you for making this highly offensive slur against me – you’ve already been warned by Charlesdrakew to remain cool, and thus you’d be well advised to follow his advice.

Judging by your conduct, that you have the nerve to label me a “fanatic” beggars belief.

Just because I have not created an ID for myself, does not mean that your speculations about me wishing to conceal my identity, my origins and the degree of my knowledge about the history, culture etc of Punjab and the Punjabi people are correct (and for you to simplistically and mistakenly claim that all Punjabi tribes are descended from Aryans or Scythians, and then question my knowledge, is just ironic) – in fact, you are woefully mistaken on all counts. It is highly arrogant of you to assume that the sources you have provided in support of your contentions are the sole, true authorities on the subject matter you are clearly so passionate about. In actual fact, the source material I provided is not only of a more contemporary nature than that furnished by you (and free of many of the errors that feature in the material you’ve provided, errors which I, and others, have already pointed out), but two of the authors I named (Tan Tai Yong and Alison Shaw) are well-respected academics, and more than sufficiently knowledgeable about the subject matter they have compiled scholarly works on. That both of these authors are non-Punjabis, and thus effectively neutral and having no vested interests in presenting a particular perspective, means your assertion that I am interested in advancing a “lop-sided” viewpoint, does not hold true; moreover, I have not, as you claim, simply resorted to using “selective” references, I have actually quoted from specific sources in reference to specific issues.

I have taken a look at your user page, and the extent to which you believe that your view of history, your belief that the source material you provide is highly reliable (and I’m afraid, as much as you may believe this to be true, this is not entirely accurate), and the dogmatic manner you often adopt when discussing these issues, leaves a lot to be desired. Just because your edits – in your view – may be more exhaustive or broad (a moot point), does not necessarily mean that they are entirely valid.

And to touch upon a point I made earlier, for you to talk about me not having a user ID, being an indication that I lack “guts” and precludes me being dealt with properly, just smacks of immaturity on your part. Furthermore, when the majority of Wikipedians employ pseudonyms, of what relevance is your mini-rant against me in this regard? How is having an ID that in all probability, will not even reflect an individual’s real identity (as holds true for the majority of Wikipedia users), proof that one possesses “guts,” especially when it is still not possible to determine that particular individual’s identity without him/her revealing this? And even then, it is difficult to ascertain the veracity of any such claim. As such, when it comes to this matter, your attack on me is nothing more than rank stupidity, and reflects very poorly on you.

What next? Are you going to challenge me to “step outside” and prove my courage? For someone who is trying to present the image of a learned individual, you do yourself no favours (not that I doubt you are learned – as am I, in fact, more knowledgeable about Punjab and its people than you think).

Moving on, I have already stressed out that I do not agree with the caste system, and believe that an individual should be judged on the basis of the content of his/her character – but this does not mean that I do not accept the reality of the fact that Punjabi society has divided itself on the basis of a social hierarchy; again, I do not believe this is morally correct, but if you choose to deny this (and it does comes across as if you have a chip on your shoulder about something, an observation that others have also made about you), you are being nothing but dishonest. A non-Punjabi academic such as Alison Shaw, whom I hope you will agree has no personal agendas (at least I assume that you will concede that common sense dictates this) has even commented at length upon the issue of caste amongst Pakistani Punjabis – the reason I underline this, is because the majority of Pakistani Punjabis, as you no doubt realise, are adherents of Islam, a faith to which caste divisions are anathema - yet so persuasive are these social divisions, that as Shaw examines in her work, ‘Kinship and Continuity’ their effects can be found to have a profound impact even upon a community of Pakistani origin that does not even reside in Pakistan, but in contemporary Britain (specifically, in Oxford); in other words, even amongst an immigrant community, living in a modern day, western society, caste and its attendant social divisions, based on patrilineal descent or traditional functional occupations (in spite of some present day members of the latter group no longer following a particular vocation associated with their ancestors), even if not adhered to, or as relevant as in times gone by, still have a deep and profound impact on the way Pakistani Punjabi society is ordered, and its interactions (and one just has to look to observances in relation to marriage, for an example of just how true this remains, both on a rural and urban level). The table compiled by Alison Shaw when examining this topic, serves as a useful reminder - see:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KVQ5Lxd8rNMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=alison+shaw#PPA116,M1)

So to answer a question you posed to me once before, I am not the one who decided which particular Punjabi clans of functional groups, should be ranked on the basis of a hierarchical system – Punjabi society took this upon itself, centuries ago, though I do hope that a time will come when Sayyeds, Janjuas, Gakkhars etc are not looked upon as being superior in terms of social ranking than the groups such as those, for example, generally referred to as ‘Kammis’ and the like. But to attempt to deny that certain groups in the Punjab are ranked and recognised (however unfortunate this may be) by their peers as belonging to “higher” or “lower” castes (for want of a better word), and that this does have a bearing upon how Punjabi society functions, is dishonest (academic or otherwise).

If, after reading through it, you can dismiss the source I have provided a link to (i.e. Shaw’s exhaustive work) then you don’t deserve to be taken seriously.

In case you want confirmation of Shaw’s credentials, please see:

http://www.ethox.org.uk/people/alison-shaw

As you can see, the source that I have quoted from (i.e. ‘Kinship and Continuity’) is considered to be:

“A classic, landmark ethnography of Pakistani migration and settlement.”

But perhaps you still consider yourself to be a greater authority than the Oxbridge educated scholar.

As for Tan Tai Yong, he has regularly contributed to the ‘International Journal of Punjab Studies’.

Now I am going to make a partial revelation as far as my ethnic origins are concerned. Despite what you say, I do respect the sensitivities of Arains and groups affiliated to them, which is why, upon reflection, I have not chosen to re-insert the point Alison Shaw made, vis-a-vis how the present day Jat and Rajput communities of Jhelum, look upon Arains (even though she makes a completely valid and factual point) – you see, through marriage, I do have Arain relatives, and although they take no issue with the edit that I reverted the article to, the one point that I just mentioned, did rankle with them, and I respect this. However, on my mother’s side, I am descended from one of the groups that I am going to go on to make reference to, in the next paragraph (although I don’t see why there is any reason why I should reveal the name of this group, nor my father’s tribe, which is not Arain, Awan or Rajput etc – if you don’t like this, tough. I am not obliged to, nor owe anyone an explanation in this regard, and retain the right to keep my racial origins private on this website; that’s my prerogative). Suffice to say, my father is Punjabi.

In keeping with what I have said above, if you are to talk about the sensitivities of Arains and the like, what about the sensitivities of groups such as Janjuas and Awans? Rightly or wrongly, these groups take pride in their lineage, just as rightly or wrongly, groups that are ranked above or below these tribes do. So when not even all true blood (and don’t attempt to put a negative spin on my words, as no racial connotations are intended – you know exactly what I mean, and the context in which I use this expression) Awans can claim Qutub Shahi status (Qutub Shahi status being looked upon as the most prestigious by the Awan community), what makes you think a section of the Maliar community doing so, makes its claim valid? The same holds true for Maliars calling themselves Janjuas - all the more ludicrous, given this Rajput tribe’s aversion to agriculture (See Tan Tai Yong’s widely acclaimed and respected work, ‘The Garrison State’: http://books.google.com/books?id=d5ZiMV7rqWUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=garriso+state), even to the extent that at times, it was to the detriment of this tribe; as is the case with Awans, this is a distinct tribe (not a mere - nor genuine - clan of the Maliar community) to which one belongs on the basis of PATRILINEAL descent; thus a functional caste such as the Maliar claiming these groups as clans of its own, is a ridiculous fraud, and the insincere nature of their baseless, whimsical claim has been commented upon by J.M. Wikeley in his text, ‘Punjabi Musalmans’ :

“Maliars are fond of calling themselves by the name of some tribe higher in the social, as Awan or Janjua.”

See: http://www.archive.org/stream/punjabimusalmans00wikeuoft/punjabimusalmans00wikeuoft_djvu.txt

Again, I have not twisted source material, nor presented a slanted take on the issue – I have only stated the facts as they stand, quoted from another widely-respected source to consolidate and verify my position on this matter, and anyone with even a basic knowledge of how Punjabi society is structured, and the history of tribes such as the Awan and Janjua, would realise that common sense supports my comments (as well of those of Wikeley – and tell me, did Wikeley, neither a Janjua, nor an Awan have a vested interest, or racist agenda, that led him to make the remarks that I have quoted?). It is not racism or snobbery that leads to Awans or Janjuas etc objecting to the claims made by the Maliar community in relation to their tribes (and as I said, I have seen firsthand the displeasure that these false claims cause amongst these groups), but simply that Maliars are fraudulently associating itself with the two aforementioned groups – when the Maliars have no right to do so, no basis for doing so (a basis which is rooted in patrilineal descent, to which the Maliars cannot lay claim), why on earth should Awans and Janjuas accept this fraud and allow it to persist? Why should it not ne exposed, as illustrated by Wikeley? If I am not a member of the Royal House of Windsor, though no-one can stop me from claiming this is the case, should it be taken seriously? If the Maliars have chosen to attempt to establish mythical clan connections, then this does not mean that it deserves to be taken seriously by academics. On the one hand, you quote Ibbetson when mentioning Maliars and the groups that I have just mentioned (Awans, Janjuas etc), yet conveniently, on the other hand, you dismiss his comments regarding the association between Sainis and Arains. Well, Ibbetson should have more forcefully pointed out what Wikeley did – period. The Maliar’s claims are rooted in lies and a lie that does not deserve to be entertained. When you yourself state that:

“Malis and Arains are occupational communities, while Sainis are a distinct ethnic community.”

Then the above can also be paraphrased to:

“Maliar is an occupational community, while Awans and Janjuas are distinct ethnic communities.”

And for the record, it makes no difference if the tribe or functional group is high-ranking or low-ranking, Awans, Janjuas, etc would simply take umbrage to any associations made between them and other groups that are based on falsehoods.

Above all, far from having a personal agenda (because I know you’re going to twist the statements I have made above), it is in the interests of historical accuracy that I object to the above association being made (the same reason I’m tired of pointing out Bhuttos are not Arains, the Bhutto tribe being one that I have no links to, thus there is no need for you to cook up another of your conspiracy theories).

I, along with others, have already underlined the fallacies included within the piece on Arain social rankings that was previously included in the article, as well as the short comings of the blood group study (again, previously included, and often removed as a result). However, for someone who prides himself on academic honesty and maintaining Wikipedia standards, why, when reverting the article to your previous edit, did you include the section on ‘Famous Arains’, and a list of names that not only does not conform to Wiki standards, but includes names that I, and other users, have already underlined, of individuals who are not Arains? Just today, I made the following note on this discussion page – did you not see it, or did you just choose to ignore it?

“Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Benazir Bhutto were RAJPUTS. Shoaib Akhtar is a GUJJAR. Wasim Akram is a JAT. Fazal Mahmood was of PATHAN descent. Ijaz Ahmed is of KASHMIRI descent.”

If you read through the Wiki article on Shoaib Akhtar, and scroll to the bottom, there is even a link provided to an Urdu language interview he gave to a national Pakistani daily, where he confirms his Gujjar origins:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoaib_Akhtar

Maybe you think that Shoaib has an agenda by declaring himself to be a Gujjar, or that words from his own mouth constitute a twisted and unreliable source?

Proof of the other names listed above (as well as names in addition to this), as being of non-Arain origin has been provided before. Although I have not amended the bulk of your article (save for removing the unnecessary reference to Awans, Janjuas, Bhuttos etc), I have altered the list of famous Arain personalities to one that the majority of Wikipedians who have discussed this topic, agree upon as being accurate.

Did you also miss the short paragraph on this discussion page, entitled, ‘The Bhutto Debacle?’ To say that because ‘Bhutto’, linguistically, sounds similar to the name of the Arain clan ‘Bhutta’, and thus conclude that there is a link between the two is a highly simplistic and mistaken line of thought (e.g. there is a Gujjar clan called ‘Awana’ – should one therefore conclude that the Awan tribe can also be included in the Gujjar fold?). How on earth can you seriously claim that there is a “probability” that on the basis of this, the two tribes are linked, and more importantly, pass off what you view as nothing more than a “probability” as fact?! Even if you can prove that there is a linguistic link, how then can you make the leap to classify a recognised Rajput tribe, as Arain? Only in your world do these distinctions mean nothing. The discussion page relating to this article, even carries a link to an article highlighting that Bhuttos are Rajputs:

“Two main Rajput tribes of Sind are: the Samma, a branch of the Yadav Rajputs who inhabit the eastern and lower Sind and Bahawalpur; and the Sumra who, according to the 1907 edition of the Gazetteer are a branch of the Parwar Rajputs. Among others are the Bhuttos, Bhattis, Lakha, Sahetas, Lohanas, Mohano, Dahars, Indhar, Chachar, Dhareja, Rathors, Dakhan, Langah etc.”

See: http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/Sindh.html

The Wikipedia article on Sindhi Rajputs, mentions that the Bhuttos are:

Perhaps the most famous of the Sindh Rajputs, they are a clan of the Bhatti Rajputs, and as such are Chandravanshi. They are found in Larkana District, in a cluster of villages such as Mirpur Bhutto and Salar Bhutto north of Larkana city.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_Rajput

There’s even a nice pic of Z.A. Bhutto on that page...

And even Benazir Bhutto’s biographer and close friend, Shyam Bhatia, remarked upon Benazir (whom she refers to by her nickname, “Pinky”) taking great pride in her Rajput ancestry:

"But Pinky always took pride in her Rajput ancestry and said it was only during war that India and Pakistan hated each other. But in peace, they liked each other."

See: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/rssarticleshow/msid-3061556,prtpage-1.cms

I’ve also mentioned that Benazir mentioned her Rajput ancestry in her autobiography, ‘Daughter of the East’, but you know, perhaps you also consider this to be a twisted and slanted take on things, even though it came straight from the horse’s mouth (so to speak) – after all this was one of the sources you said claimed was not convincing, though if Benazir herself said it, God only knows what will convince you. Who knows, perhaps you also think that Shyam Bhatia has an agenda, though if you do, I’d love to know what you think it could be?

Why is it that amongst all the numerous texts that I, and others, have quoted from (and there are plenty more that still haven’t been referred to), that mention the relationship between Z.A. Bhutto and Zia-ul-Haq, and emphasise that the latter belonged to the Arain community, not a single author sees fit to reveal that both men belonged to the same community? How could such a glaring coincidence be glossed over? Because their respective tribes were not one and the same, that’s why. If anything, the plethora of sources that have been cited, indicate that Bhutto looked down upon the community that Zia belonged to (which also proved to be the former’s undoing, a result of him underestimating the man who came to be his greatest foe, based on suppositions he made about his Arain origins). Read Emma Duncan’s acclaimed, ‘Breaking the Curfew’ and you will get an insight into how Zia ensured that the Arain community’s interests were advanced during his tenure in power, and just how preposterous a notion it is that he would have taken the life of Bhutto in such a dramatic fashion, had the latter actually been a kinsman.

The impression I am left with, is that you, in your erroneous belief that all Punjabi tribes (extending this to Sindh) are descended from Aryans or Scythians, are all inter-related, and thus are clutching at straws to prove that they are all one and the same – well, the reality is, it just doesn’t work like that (pay a visit to Punjab and try positing your theories amongst a group of typically diverse Punjabis, scholars and non-scholars alike, and see how far you get) and the situation is far more complex, but continue to ignore the facts of history, which has left its impact upon Punjabi society in all its myriad forms (which of course includes matters relating to the fabric of Punjabi society, how it has evolved, its composition and social order).

Claim as much as you like that Arains are the “kinsmen” of Jats and Rajputs. Alison Shaw’s statement from ‘Kinship and Continuity’ highlights just what I’ve pointed out in the paragraph above:

“Jats and Rajputs from Jhelum consider that the Arain are a service caste, ranked ‘lower’ than the zamindars and refer to the Arain by the term Maliar, which is apparently used in Jhelum to refer to people who traditionally grow vegetables around wells.”

So much for your fanciful statements – the above paragraph illustrates just how much respect your views would hold in reality amongst sections of Punjabi society (not that I agree in any way with one tribe looking down upon another – for you will twist my words – and fortunately, this mode of thought is not prevalent amongst all Punjabis, nevertheless, I am stressing the reality of the situation). Whatever you may claim to be the origins of the various Punjabi tribes, how they may overlap in terms of clan affiliations, how they are one people etc., cannot detract from the fact that these tribes have come to form, and look upon themselves, as distinct entities, even if they do share some common bonds. So try as much as you may, you cannot alter this historical and sociological fact, and disingenuously dismiss those who point this out to you, as “fanatics” (an extremely foolish assertion on your part). You sound as ridiculous as many of those belonging to tribes such as the Sayyeds, Awans, etc., who to this day actually refer to themselves as Arabs, based on a claim to Arab descent that stretches back centuries.

Then again, idiocy seems to rule the various edits of the article. I can still recall the shameless fallacy that some were attempting to pass off here about the Arains being considered a martial race, both pre and post-partition, which only came to an end when a heap of references were provided that categorically proved this to be the exact opposite of the truth when it comes to this topic.

Anyway, I’m done discussing this topic, and as remains the case, have provided plenty of material prior to this, which is perfectly valid, scholarly , balanced and respected in the world of academia. I’ve left you to do with the article as you please, despite the fact you have still littered it with complete and utter lies and nonsense (your bias and arrogance of which you have the nerve to accuse me of, prevents you from acknowledging this), and turned it into a joke. Your “exhaustive” and “complete” article is nothing more than a muddled mess, and I no longer care if it is, but if you re-add the material I have removed, and given more than enough reason in the course of this discussion for doing so, rest assured, I will remove it again – and should you do so, look closer to home before hurling accusations of vandalism in my direction.

The fact is, you maintain your edit is justified, and I maintain that my edit is justified. You assert your sources are correct and that my source material is flawed, and I maintain that my source material is up to date (something that is of the utmost importance), accurate and counters the references you have cited. And ultimately you accuse me of vandalism, and I hold that this accusation should be aimed at you. But quite frankly, when it comes down to it, I have better things to do than go round in circles with you.

I do not claim to be a great sage, far from it, but believe me, you’re not half as clever as you think you are; looking through your discussion page, more than proves this.

---

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.180.25 (talk) 19:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, fine, fine for your lengthy lecture.

Firstly I want to clarify your misunderstanding that I am not the one with IP 72.211.215.92 who inserted/ or re-inserted "Sainis differentiated from Arains or Raiens" section in the article. Also, I care the least about "Famous Arain" section and did not insert/or reinsert it in the article. Do not point fingers at me for nothing. Perhaps the guy with IP 72.211.215.92 who edited/or added these two sections would come up and admit this on this page so that your/other readers misgiving is cleared. And I leave it between you and him to deal with "Sainis differentiated from Arains or Raiens" section. I am not in it and don't care about it.

Also, whatever your so-called contemporary references, I care the least. In my discussion section, I only used clan names criteria (which the British ethnographers also used extensively) to show that Arains are a "mixed body of several castes" (as Steedman has observed), which included marginal cultivators from all land owning classes of north-west of the past few centuries. This is evident from the Arain clan names many of which evidently overlap with the Jatts, Rajputs, Kamboj, Sainis and other minor tribes of the Punjab. No one can deny or refute this reality. It is another matter if someone wants to invent a theory that Arains and Maliars have falsely stolen Rajput, Janjua or Awan clan names. Why on earth one would choose to call somebody else's ancestor as one's own? If that argument is accepted, then cant one similarly argue that the Arains have also falsely stolen clan names from the Jatts, Kamboj and Sainis too? This is a rank absurdity.

THe important issue here is that one's "Caste" may change (Kamboj may become Arain, Chheemba, Zubaire, Korosh; or a Rajput may become Jat, Arain, Julaha, Chheemba, Nai, Qureishi, Qutab-shahi or whatever as Ibbetson states in "The Punjab Castes"); ones "tribe" (collection of clan names) may change by admixture with other tribes/castes; BUT one's clan name is fundamental entity and it never changes. It stays put. Hence if one finds Manhas, Punwar, Chauhan, Gill, Thind, Bhutta, Kamboh etc clan names in several communities co-existing in time and space propinquity, then it is certain that there has been either a degradation or an upgradation (or branching-off) in the life of the clans and change in the social hierarchy due to adoption of different occupations which may have been necessitated mostly by the economical/political conditions faced by the clans. This fact can not be belied easily even if one wants to. Since Arain being a caste, if it shares its clan names with other nearby agricultural communities of Punjab including Jatts, Rajputs, Kamboj, Sainis, Awans etc, then this certainly demonstrates the inevitable historical reality that the caste Arain is is product from all of these land-owning communities and hence a "mixed body of castes". This is the point I wanted to convey in the article and it can t be refuted by simple denial notwithstanding quoting from J.M. Wikeley, Alison Shaw or anybody similar.

BTW, it is height of irony that on the one hand somebody brands Ibbestson and Rose as outdated authors and yet on the other hand uses their quotes in the articles!.

Satbir Singh (talk) 02:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, I've just made some important additions to the comments I originally included above (at least I consider them to be important). If after reading them you still want to dismiss what I have to say in relation to the references I have cited (especially when it comes to Alison Shaw), then so be it. Secondly, please don't make an issue of me supposedly giving you a lengthy lecture, when you have littered this discussion page with your views. Thirdly, in actual fact, you did nothing to remove the section concerning famous Arains. See for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arain&diff=284556031&oldid=284545061

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arain&diff=284559377&oldid=284556031

Fourthly, are you serious when you state, "Why on earth one would choose to call somebody else's ancestor as one's own?" Must I present you with the findings of field studies conducted in Pakistan which categorically state that in areas where, for example, Awans are the dominant caste, kammi groups, particularly those who have recently acquired a fair degree of wealth, will suddenly claim Awan status? The same holds true for other dominant groups dotted around the Punjab, and those sadly that are still forced into a life of servitude.

This reminds me of the saying, "Last year I was a Juhala, the next year a Sheikh and this year if the prices should rise, I shall be a Sayyed."

If I have chosen to retain Ibbetson and Rose's quotes in the articles, it is not because I originally inserted them (which I didn't), but because I simply can no longer be bothered to delete the rubbish that is included in the main article (except in the instances I have mentioned earlier).

Finally, as for the remainder of what you have to say, we will just have to agree to disagree. The only point I am willing to concede is that I went back on the statement I previously made, and am once again wasting my time discussing this topic with you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.180.25 (talk) 03:25, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, relax now and enjoy life. It is too short, tension is not good for heart, ok.

Satbir Singh (talk) 13:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Benazir Bhutto were RAJPUTS. Shoaib Akhtar is a GUJJAR. Wasim Akram is a JAT. Fazal Mahmood was of PATHAN descent. Ijaz Ahmed is of KASHMIRI descent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.93.174 (talk) 02:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Criticism

Much too long. 98% should be deleted. Filled with bias, propaganda and weasel words. Obviously someone writing this article doesn't really understand or believe in the standards of Wikipedia. Certain people simply lack academic decency. Shame... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.61.172.19 (talk) 11:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION IS THAT SATBIR SINGH, AS HAS BEEN AMPLY DEMONSTRATED, IS ACTUALLY GUILTY OF VANDALISING THIS ARTICLE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.191.124 (talk) 03:20, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

FEW ILLUSTRATIVE EXAMPLES

• The Tarkhans, Lohars and Nais of Sirsa are known to have been Rajputs or Jats who within quite recent times have taken to the hereditary occupations of these castes and thus got degraded to a lower status (See: Punjab Castes, 1974 edition, p 8, D enzil Ibbetson).

• Some of the Chauhasns of Karnal whose forefathers were Rajputs have taken to weaving and become Julahas Sheikhs (See: Punjab Castes, 1974 edition, p 8, D enzil Ibbetson).

• In recent times, Sahansara who were admitted a Rajput tribe till only a few generations ago when the took to growing vegetable lost their Rajput status and fell to Arain status and ranked with Arains (See: Punjab Castes, 1974 edition, p 8, D enzil Ibbetson).

• The Basket makes of Ferozepur, Multan and Jallundhur who were Punwar (Pawar Rajputs a century ago) when taken to occupation of rope-makers and basket-makesrs got degraded to lower Sudra status.

There are Kumhars who are Bhattis, Chandels, Chauhans, Gore/Gauri, Janjuas,Sattis; There are Julahas who are Bhattis, Khokhars, Janjuas, Awans, Chauhans; there are some Malis/Maliars who are Chohans, Janjuas, Awans, Khokhars, BHattis, Surajbansi; there are Nais who are Bhutta, Sidhu, Bhatti, Goyal, Chandel, Gore/Gori, Lakhi; there are Jheewars who are Bhatti, Minhas, Khokhars; there are Rathod Rajputs given to Shorgarhia occupations; there are Chamars who are Bhattis, Chauhans, Bains, Sindhu, Chandors; there are Chauhan vanjaras Rajputs who roam village to village and deal in scraps; there are Chheembas (who are given to tailoring) who are Khokhars, Bhattis, Kambohs….and …all of these real-life examples speaks of the former Rajput/Ksatriya status of these clans/tribal groups but then a degradation occurred to lower status on account of their adoption of an occupation incompatible with their former status. This all occurred imperceptibly and over the time. Janjuas are now found among the Telis, Lohars, Tarkhans, Maiars, and even the Musallis (Muhanadan Chuharas): and the Ghumman, Ganjial, Bhakrial, Nathial, Bath and Basoya and others Jats are of Janjua descent (Glossary , Rose, Vol II, p 354).

These are some instances of clans falling to lower castes.. there are also instances that a land owning class can upgrade itself. A branch of Wattus Rajputs of Satluj after peculiar affecting sanctity became Bodlas and now they deny their Rajput status and claim them as Qureishi. Some Kharrals of Bahawalpur who began to affect peculiar holiness now deny their connections with other Kharrals and soon, they woukld start claiming Arab descent. A section of Kambohs of Uttar Pradesh who were were the ruling elites during Lodhi/Pathan/Mughal rules now deny their Kamboj Ksatriya roots and claim Arab descent from Zubair and hence call them Zubaires.

So the traffic is open both ways..which is too hard to be understood by the fanatic and stolidsminds.

The caste position in north-west Indian subcontinent esp. Punjab is based primarily on occupation and given that the occupation is that most respectable of all occupations — the owning and cultivation of land upon political position (Punjab Castes, 1974, p 10, D Ibbetson).

A tribe which acquires political independence in one part of the country and becomes owner of the land where it enjoyed a high social position in the ranks of caste, which is denied to it in tracts where it occupies a subordinate or inferior position or owns lesser land. This may be indigestible but is true.

ON ARAIN ISSUE

I gave just one real-life instance where one former Rajput clan became Arain after it started resorting to vegetable growing occupation in Hoshiarpur during the bad days of its existences. This instance also amply illustrates that the sections of the Arains, as they themselves claim in their own traditions, do have former status as Rajputs. There are many clan names found among the Arains like Bhatti, Janjua, Bhutta, Chandor, Khokhar, Joiya, Tarar, (Solar Rajput), Nain, Bhaddu (Rajput trie of Deccan) etc, which bear convincing signatures to their partial descent of former Rajputs not withstanding the cynical racial-minded fanatics over this page. Quoting Mr Purser, Mr Denzil Ibbestson writes about the Arains of Montogomery as follows: The Arains of Montogomery know nothing about their origin. They claim Surajbansi Rajput descent and have come to this district from Delhi part of the country. They are usually SUPPOSED to be Mohammadan Kambohs and since the latter undoubtedly came from west so it is possible that they did too…. Their chief divisions are Gahlan, Chandor, Chachar, Sindhu and Barar (See: Punjab Castes, 1974, p 143, Denzil Ibbetson).

IMPORTANT COMMENTS FOLLOW

The above speculations of Denzil Ibbetson and Mr Purser about Kamboh-Arain connections are obviously highly flawed and erroneous. First and foremost important thing to note here is that all the chief divisions (the clan names) of the Arains which Mr Ibbetson has mentioned i.e. Gahlan, Chandor, Chachar, Sindhu and Barar etc undoubtedly belong to the Jatt caste and not to the Kamboj (except Barar which is very minor Kamboh got but a huge Jat clan name). Secondly, Mr Ibbetson speculates, contrary to actual facts, that the Arains of Montogomery (who according to their own claim had came from Delhi) and thus forcibly makes them as having come from the west like the Kamboh and hence make them and the Kambohs as affined people..... This is very flawed and unscholarly argument and flimsy speculation. Denzil Ibbetson for some unknown reasons, does not take into view the major Arain clan names which all belong to the Jat caste (and not to Kambohs) and onssidely or hastily makes a bold but erroneous statement that the Kambohs and Arains may be related. For reference see: Gahlan/Gehlan/Gelan (Glossary Rose p 282, Vol II), Chandar/Chandor/Chaddar (Glossary Rose 145, 152) , Chachar (Glossary, Rose, p p 145, Vol II); Sindhu (Glossary, Rose, Vol III, p 423), and Barar (Glossary, Rose, p 64-65, Vol II). Besides these divisions, the Jatts and Arains share over FIFTY (50) more clan names. Strikingly enough, even name Rain (Arain) is found as one of one tribe name of the Jatts in Jind (See Glossary, Rose, p 271, Vol III). This shows that there is strong connection between the Jats and Arains which has not been considered for some reasons. And is possible that from the Jat tribal name Rain/Arain, the Arain caste may have started and the Jats may actually have formed the nucleus of the Arain Caste. According to Rose, Gaure, Hande (Handa) and Momi gots of the Kamboh are also found among the Arains. On page 119 of his book titled: The Tribes and Castes of the North-western Provinces and Oudh, 1896, William Crooke, has affirmed that none of the 52 important clan-names of the Kamboh (Kamboj) of Punjab contain any Arain clan names. The three clan names i.e Gore/Gaure, Momi and the Hande/Handa are the only important common clans found among the Arain as well as the Kamboh. But Hande orHanda is also a clan name among the Khatris of Punjab and Gaure/Gore/Gore is caln name found among the Rajputs. Wiiliam crooke also makes the observation that the Kambohs deny any relation with the Arains (See: The Tribes and Castes of the North-western Provinces and Oudh, 1896 p 119). And this has ever been persistently denied by the Kamboh/Kamboj. But undoubtedly the Kamboh and Arain share some 20-25 MOOR clan names as compared to about 60 caln names shared by Jats and Arains. Further, the Arains share over 20-25 clan names with other Rajput castes of Punjab like Bhatti, Janjua, Bhutta, Chandor, Khokhar, Joiya, Tarar, (Solar Rajput), Nain, Bhaddu (Rajput tribe of Deccan) etc and most of them undoubtedly being major clan Rajput names. And lastly the Arains share even less clan names with the Saini and Awans (See This Talk page, further down).

The above discussion indisputably establishes that the Arains are a mixed body of castes as Mr Steed man has also remarked: "Arain, Rain, Baghban, Mali and Maliar are in Jhang and Rawalpindi a very mixed body". Tee same statement is true for rest of the Arains all over Punjab. Caste Arain undoubtedly contains elements from the Jatts, Rajputs, Kamboh, and to a lesser extent Sainis, Awans and other minor land owing/cultivating castes of the north-west. The best explanation for this therefore is that the farmers from these various tribes which over the time in the past became unfortunate enough and lost lands or otherwise were unable to find better resources for their subsistence as Ksatriyas/or major farmers, had to switch to small-scale farming like vegetable growing to maintain their subsistence. The examples cited in case of the Sahansara Rajput tribe above finally clenches the point. In 1880 census, the Mailar of Rawalpind division for the most part returned their clan names as Janjua, Qurab-Shahi (Awan), Khokhar, and Bhatti etc, though some of them gave what are apparently true Arain clans such as Wahands (See Punjab Castes, 1974, p 143, Denzil Ibbetson). The above list undoutedly contains Rajput clan names which only further reinforces the Sahansara case of Hoshiarpur.

That is enough for the time I hope.

Satbir Singh (talk) 14:49, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Aryan descent

For Kneeslasher

The land of the five rivers was known as panchanad in the ancient period, and as Punjab in the medieval period. Punjabiyat is a recent concept, but the regional identity denoted by it has long been shaped by language, territory, literary and folk traditions, classical and folk art forms including the vigorous bhangra, cuisine, dress including headgear and so on. Punjab has witnessed far reaching ethnographic changes since the last ethnographic accounts were written. Partition entailed immigration of populations of the Hindus and Sikhs. The reorganization of the Punjabi Suba led to the rise of the Sikhs as the dominant community. Of the ninety-five communities studied under the People of India project in Punjab the Scheduled Castes form a major chunk. The state is divided into three distinct eco-cultural zones, defined by the dialects of Punjabi language. While Punjabi is the most widely spoken language, followed by Hindi, sixteen other languages are also spoken by local communities and immigrants, all belonging to the Indo-Aryan family.

This paragrph does not say all these groups belong to Indo-Aryans family. Explain where does it say Arain belong to Indo-Aryan family?

You're absolutely right. I made a mistake and misread the Indo-Aryan as referring to the ethnic groups rather than the languages of the Punjab. I've re-used a cut-down version of the reference for further support that the Arain are a group in the Punjab: all mention of Indo-Aryan is now excised.
Kneeslasher 00:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

For 68.236.156.186

Arain's also claim to be descendents of the Aryan race. Some Arain’s are born with blonde hair and some with blue eyes; Aryans are the Indic subgroup of the Indo-Iranian branch.

Unfortunately, this needs at least on reference and general clean up. Some points to consider:

- The concept of an "Aryan race" us a little shadowy and vague. Whilst it is undoubted that many groups were (and are) Aryan, whether this constitutes a (strictly) racial classification is under heated debate.
- The Arain are not the only caste descended from the ancient population of the Punjab/India. The other neighbouring tribes are equally of "Aryan descent".
- The bit about the Indo-Iranian Indic branch is the modern parlance for Aryan, and probably true. It still needs references though.

Speaking personally, I have seen undoubted cases of Arain with blond to brown to red hair, blue eyes, etc., however, this does not constitute a verifiable reference as is needed here, so there is no point in mentioning it. Until such references are found, we cannot state this as fact in the article. Please do see if you can dig up at least one reference and post it here on the talk page for discussion before editing the article directly with non-referenced statements.

Kneeslasher 19:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Unique descent (blood tests)

POV statements, opinions claiming a reference which the reference doesn't support, and non-credible references, 193.115.70.9:

[ 3 ]"However, this does not amount to a significant statistical difference such as would allow the Arain to claim different or unique ancestry[17]."

Again the referenced study does not say that it "does not amount to a significant statistical difference such as would allow the Arain to claim different or unique ancestry". In fact there is a significant statistical difference that exists, hence the study mentions it. I quote the study "There is no statistically significant difference of ABO and Rh-D distribution among various ethnic groups,......except in Arains where B is the most common and O is less common." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.115.70.9 (talk) 13:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

I have a bone to pick here. The quote obviously shows that the statistical difference is not significant. This term is not semantic, it is quantitative, with reference to percentiles in the jargon of statistical analysis (see confidence intervals and significance in stats discussion). So whilst the difference is noted, it is also noted that it simply isn't enough to (yet) differentiate the Arain significantly from their peers in the Punjab.
Kneeslasher 15:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The quote says that the statistical difference is not significant, except for Arains. It is also not enough to say that there isn't a difference, i.e. more research is needed, so we cannot say either way. hence my wording which does not make it a definite proof. 193.115.70.9 17:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Lack of significant proof doesn't mean the Arain aren't different! They may well be different, it just means the study is unable to prove it conclusively: surely this point stands since statistical analysis for testing any quantity can have three possible "answers": a positive, a negative and a "not enough information for positive proof". It is the last of these which I'm advocating in accordance with the reference: I'm certainly not arguing for the negative result!
Kneeslasher 17:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

OK I agree, but the current wording says "However, this does not amount to a significant statistical difference" however the study does make a statitical difference between Arains and others by at least 10% in blood groups O & B. So although the study findings DO amount to a statistical difference of at least 10%, the study alone is not enough to prove the case, so wording like However this study alone does not prove that Arains originate from Arabs, the study concludes that "Further ethnic based studies are required to confirm" [1] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.115.70.9 (talk) 17:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

I've made changes which I hope accommodate the points you've brought up. I still think there's a little bit of ambiguity in the phrasing from that report: does the word "except" refer to Arain having group B blood, or to the significance? Either way, it's written as significant for now in the article.
Kneeslasher 18:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Generally, I'm going to refrain from blindly editing your edits since you seem more concerned with improving the article than inventing poorly constructed fantasies using even poorer English, unlike many of the other posters. I am sure we can use this space to discuss changes and revisions in a civilised fashion before committing them after reaching consensus. What do you say? No more edits unless they've been discussed here?

Kneeslasher 15:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to say what a pleasure it is to have a sane to and fro on the issue. Such discussion has been sadly lacking in this article since its inception. You might want to consider creating a Wikipedia ID proper.
Kneeslasher 17:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Market gardening

For 71.253.26.6

The level of general knowledge lacking in lamentable. When a contention arises due to differing opinions, that is normal and healthy. Where there is disagreement solely due to one of the interlocutors not realising the meaning of a word or term, then it is a case of the immovable rock of knowledge facing the obstinate wind of ignorance. To wit, let us deal with the prickly issue at hand: market gardening. Strictly speaking, we do not need a reference for this due to what market gardening actually means: making it axiomatic that most farmers are, by definition, market gardeners.

Market gardening means to grow crops for sale upon the market. The opposite of market gardening in subsistence farming where crops are grown solely for self-consumption. Needless to say that subsistence farming does not occur in all but the most primitive of societies or where political and economic order have severely broken down. This has not been the case in the Punjab for centuries if not millenia: the Punjab is one of the oldest centres of civilisation and, more pertinently, trade. Farmers in the Punjab have therefore always grown their crop as cash-crops, not food-crops. They are therefore firmly in the category of market-gardeners, and have been for centuries. Including the period when Kipling's Kim is set, which, as it happens, accurately describes this profession.

To assert otherwise is to relegate the Arain to be, out of all the other farmers in the Punjab, the only ones incapable of earning money from their land. Indeed it speaks of a remarkably low opinion of the Arain: opining them to be the only primitive farmers amidst the other farmers of the Punjab who are udoubtedly market gardeners. Unless denigrating the Arain in this way was your intention, you'll quote a reference which states categorically that Arain were not market gardeners. Otherwise, the very definition of the term demands their classification as such.

Kneeslasher 23:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

This is definition of market gardening

In agriculture, market gardening is the relatively small-scale production of fruits, vegetables and flowers as cash crops, frequently sold directly to consumers and restaurants.

First thing fruits, vegetables and flowers are not the only thing Arain grow, They grow all kind of crops other farmers of Punjab like Jat, Gujar etc do. Second thing based on the definition of market gardening farmers directly sell it to consumers that not what Arain do. That is why I am emphasising on fresh reference. small landowners statement also need fresh reference because things have been changed a lot after 1900.

Thanks.

Sorry, that doesn't cut the mustard. Apart from proving that your familiarity with the English language leaves you in no position to emphasise the subtleties of phrasing, you've proved nothing as regards the market gardening claim. Not to mention that you've misunderstood the sentence entirely, it provides information as to the traditional vocation, not what the Arain are up to these days (quite obviously, a number now exist in all fields: business, medicine, academia, etc.). So the criticism that the sentence is outdated is an oxymoron: the sentence naver aimed to decribe the diverse state of the Arain community in this day and age. Nor is anyone reading the article silly enough to conflate a singular manifestation of the Arain in colonial literature with an entire caste, in those times or these. The vast majority of the Arain do not have land that even begins to approach the size needed for heavily industrialised farming. Your comments are doubtless well meant, but either back up your claims with explicit references on the market gardening front, or accept that the Kim reference stays.
Kneeslasher 00:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

POV statements, opinions claiming a reference which the reference doesn't support, and non-credible references, 193.115.70.9:

[ 1 ] "They are chiefly associated with market gardening[4]"

The reference for this says "Behind them an angry farmer brandished a bamboo pole. He was a market-gardener, Arain by caste, growing vegetables and flowers for Umballa city, and well Kim knew the breed." (Kim, Rudyard Kipling).". It does NOT say thats arains are chiefly associated with market gardening. This is like showing a report that said General Zia-ul-haq was an arain, and therefore claiming that Arains are chiefly associated with the military.

You're entirely correct: the reference doesn't lead to the sentence. In retrospect, I can see that the sentence was written with a certain perception of the Arain already in mind. However, let us use logic instead of the reference. We can divide all farmers into, roughly, a heirarchy of three layers. At the most basic, we have subsistence farmers, growing food crops. Then we have market gardeners growing cash crops. Then we have highly industrialised farmers, often with huge holdings, also growing cash crops. The Arain only fit into the middle category, as do the vast majority of all farmers from all castes in the Punjab. So I contend that the assertion is correct, albeit not wholly supported by the reference.
Kneeslasher 15:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not leave it as 'farmers' then, using our own logic is a POV? 193.115.70.9 17:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

OK: farmers it is. I'll make the necessary changes.
Kneeslasher 17:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Famous Arain

For Patrika

We need more unambiguous references for the following prominent Arain:

Mian Sir Muhammad Shah Nawaz, a prominent and influential politician of Punjab in the 1920s: Please provide the exact quote.

Mian Iftikharuddin , a prominent politician, who sat on the opposition benches most of his life. A big landlord, he was founder of Imroze and Pakistan Times newspapers, which were later nationalized by Ayub government: It isn't mentioned anywhere in the reference provided that he was/is an Arain.

Mian Azhar Mahmood - Former Governor of Punjab,Pakistan: The reference given mentions the Arain involvement in politics and their support for this candidate, but nowhere does it mention that he is an Arain let alone a former Governor of the Punjab.

Kneeslasher

This paragraph is from the book Pakistan under Zia.

the Arain families put their money into education and reaped quick rewards. Soon they were to dominate the legal profession among the urban Muslims of Punjab,and a number of them used law as a springboard to politics. Mian Sir Muhammad Shah Nawaz, a prominent and influential politician of Punjab in the 1920s, was an Arain as was Mian Iftikharuddin, who was to play an important role in turning the Muslim community of urban Punjab toward favoring an independent Pakistan. Some Arains went into the civil service. Chaudhry Muhammad Ali, the senior most civil servant to opt for service in Pakistan, was an Arain from Jullundur. Ali went on to become Pakistan's second finance minister ( 1951-56) and its fourth prime minister ( 1956-57).

I think this is the result of maybe an unavoidable error. You see: I've got the page of that book open in front of me now, and it just doesn't contain those lines! On the version I have access to, it says "...springboard into politics. Mian Fazli Husain, the first chief minister...". You see, those two names just aren't mentioned in this version at all! Which is why I excised the stuff from the article. However, you seem to be showing a definitive quote which has two additional people mentioned. Is there a url where I can refer to this version to corroborate?
Kneeslasher 23:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the reference http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&docId=98917428 is unfortunately inaccessible to those of us in the wrong country: could you cut and paste the section about Arain in it into this talk page? Many thanks...

Kneeslasher 23:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is the information you requested

Many Arain families flourished as urbanization increased the value of their land, and they put this new wealth to good use. According to a Pakistani anthropologist, the Arain "has little of the elegance and polish of the traditional feudal landlords of the Punjab, Noons and Tiwanas, of Rajput origin. Afternoon tea parties, partridge shoots, or polo are not associated with Arains. Nor does he waste his energies on dancing girls, or drunken evenings listening to poetry, or numerous marriages, a pastime of the landed gentry through which they alienated their lands." 9 Instead, the Arain families put their money into education and reaped quick rewards. Soon they were to dominate the legal profession among the urban Muslims of Punjab, and a number of them used law as a springboard to politics. Mian Sir Muhammad Shah Nawaz, a prominent and influential politician of Punjab in the 1920s, was an Arain as was Mian Iftikharuddin, who was to play an important role in turning the Muslim community of urban Punjab toward favoring an independent Pakistan. Some Arains went into the civil service. Chaudhry Muhammad Ali, the senior most civil servant to opt for service in Pakistan, was an Arain from Jullundur. Ali went on to become Pakistan's second finance minister ( 1951-56) and its fourth prime minister ( 1956-57).

--Patrika 00:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Those are certainly good additions to the list.
Kneeslasher 11:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

References which still need to be utilised in expanding the article

Panjab Castes (Denzil Ibbetson)

[still needed]

Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province (H A Rose)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?vid=ISBN8120605055&id=UQUtQzPtC6wC&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&ots=LiRYa56DU1&dq=ibbetson&sig=PaV8IZVllOLRvKbPtCIMZeJSmEs

[still needed]

I'm going to gain access to this book and post scans of the sections which deal with the Arain. Then the article can be expanded using strictly referenced material derived from the book.

Kneeslasher 13:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I've now located this book (above). And it's out of copyright so the material can be freely utilised here. Expect to see some updates when I get time to transpose them.
Kneeslasher 13:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Kim (Rudyard Kipling)

Chapter 3 Yea, voice of every Soul that clung

To life that strove from rung to rung When Devadatta's rule was young, The warm wind brings Kamakura.

Buddha at Kamakura.

Behind them an angry farmer brandished a bamboo pole. He was a market-gardener, Arain by caste, growing vegetables and flowers for Umballa city, and well Kim knew the breed.

'Such an one,' said the lama, disregarding the dogs, 'is impolite to strangers, intemperate of speech and uncharitable. Be warned by his demeanour, my disciple.'

'Ho, shameless beggars!' shouted the farmer. 'Begone! Get hence!'

'We go,' the lama returned, with quiet dignity. 'We go from these unblessed fields.'

'Ah,' said Kim, sucking in his breath. 'If the next crops fail, thou canst only blame thine own tongue.'

The man shuffled uneasily in his slippers. 'The land is full of beggars,' he began, half apologetically.

'And by what sign didst thou know that we would beg from thee, O Mali?' said Kim tartly, using the name that a market-gardener least likes. 'All we sought was to look at that river beyond the field there.'

'River, forsooth!' the man snorted. 'What city do ye hail from not to know a canal-cut? It runs as straight as an arrow ' and I pay for the water as though it were molten silver. There is a branch of a river beyond. But if ye need water I can give that - and milk.'

'Nay, we will go to the river,' said the lama, striding out.

'Milk and a meal.' the man stammered, as he looked at the strange tall figure. 'I - I would not draw evil upon myself - or my crops. But beggars are so many in these hard days.'

'Take notice.' The lama turned to Kim. 'He was led to speak harshly by the Red Mist of anger. That clearing from his eyes, he becomes courteous and of an affable heart. May his fields be blessed! Beware not to judge men too hastily, O farmer.'

'I have met holy ones who would have cursed thee from hearthstone to byre,' said Kim to the abashed man. 'Is he not wise and holy? I am his disciple.'

He cocked his nose in the air loftily and stepped across the narrow field-borders with great dignity.

'There is no pride,' said the lama, after a pause, 'there is no pride among such as follow the Middle Way.'

'But thou hast said he was low-caste and discourteous.'

'Low-caste I did not say, for how can that be which is not? Afterwards he amended his discourtesy, and I forgot the offence. Moreover, he is as we are, bound upon the Wheel of Things; but he does not tread the way of deliverance.' He halted at a little runlet among the fields, and considered the hoof-pitted bank.

Websites

Pakistan/India:
- http://www.pakboi.gov.pk/BFacts/punjab_.html

Various tidbits which do not seem to be glorified

For a while after completing his education, Bulleh Shah taught at the same mosque. He then became a murid of Inayat Shah Qadri, a famous saint of Qadirya school of sufis in Lahore, who belonged to the Arain caste. Bulleh Shah had to face the resentment and taunts of his family and other Syed friends for accepting the spiritual guidance of a non-Syed. The poetic response from Bulleh Shah rejected his critics' false concept of inherent superiority and nobility of any caste and set the pattern of his lifelong challenge to accepted norms:

Those who call me Syed Are destined to hell made for them. Those who call me Arain Have the swings of heaven laid for them.

The low-caste and the high-caste, Are created by God who is all-powerful; He casts away the fair ones, And clasps to His heart the meritless ones.

In 1729 when Shah Inayat died, Bulleh Shah succeeded him as the head of his monastery at Lahore. Bulleh Shah died in 1758. He never married.

It is pretty easy to find what Arain are: https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html

In india there are four classes of muslims: Syed: Decendants of Prophet Muhammad

Shaikh: Decendants of Arab merchants who settled in india

Pathans: Decendants of Pustuns

Ohters: All others are the converts from the indigenous people to islam.

A naive guy wrote the following:

Arains' have two branches: one is Hindu called Arain Caste Kamboh and the others are the converts from the Hindus to Islam. They are Arains Caste.

If Arain were a tribe as the article claims, the Paksitani government forms would not have classified Arain as a caste, just as the Indian Govt clasified Arain as a hindo caste. There is a vast difference between a caste which is based on Hindo caste system and a tribe. The arain caste is the caste of vegetable growers. I hope someone will correct this.

OUR RESPONDER:

MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE KAMBOH/KAMBOJ ARE NOT A CASTE; THEY ARE ANCIENT INDO-IRANIAN TRIBE. THEY ARE NOT RELATED TO CASTE ARAINS SINCE THE ARAINS, LIKE THE JATS AND THE RAJPUTS, ARE ALSO A CASTE OF MANY MIXED RACES. BASED ON 1991/2001 CENSUS STATISTICS, THE KAMBOJ WERE ABOUT 43% MOSLEM (7,50,00), 32% SIKHS (5,70,00) and 25% HINDUS (4,50,00). THUS KAMBOJ ARE FOUND BOTH MUSLIMS AS WELL AS NON-MUSLIMS i.e. HINDUS & SIKHS. THE FUNNY GUY WHO WROTE THAT THE KAMBOH/KAMBOJ ARE AN ARAIN CASTE KAMBOH, WHO ARE THE HINDUS COUNTERPARTS OF THE MUSLIMS ARAIN CASTE IS SIMPLY TALIKING BULL SHIT AND THROUGH HIS A*---HOLE. IN THE PRE-PARTITION DAYS IN INDIA, THERE WERE THE "MUSLIM KAMBOH", "MUSLIM ARAINS" AND THE "MUSLIM JATS"----ALL LIVING DISTINCTLY, IN THE SAME VILLAGES. THIS FACT IS ALSO RECORDED BY IBBETSONS/ROSES ETC. IF THE ARAINS ARE JUST THE MUSLIM KAMBOJ/KAMBOH, THEN WHY ABOUT 45% OF PRE-PARTITION KAMBOH POPULATION WERE IDENTIFIED/CALLED SEPARATELY AS "MUSLIM KAMBOH"?. AND FOR WHAT REASONS HAD THESE MUSLIM KAMBOHS MAINTANED THEIR KAMBOJ IDENTITY SEPARATE FROM THE THE ARAINS IN THE SAME VILLAGES, IF THEY WERE INDEED THE SAME PEOPLE, AND THE DIFFERENCE WAS MERELY THE RELIGION?. BASED ON THIS AND SOME OTHER IMPORTANT INFORMATION, EVEN BRITISH COLONIAL WRITERS LIKE IBBESTSON & ROSE HAD TO ADMIT THAT THE HYPOTHESIS TO CONNECT KAMBOJ WITH ARAINS IS UNPROVEN AND PROBABLY BASELESS, EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT BOTH PEOPLE HAD COME FROM WEST DIRECTION. BUT THEN MANY OF THE OTHER CASTES OF PUNJAB, (e.g ANCESTORS OF JATTS, RAJPUTS etc) HAD ALSO COME FROM THE WEST. UNFORTUNATELY, THE HALF-BAKED PEN-PUSHERS & THE IGNORANT/NAIVE READERS WHO BLINDLY FOLLOW THESE WRITERS, WITH NO BRAIN OF THEIR OWN, AND WHO WITHOUT ANALYSING THE EXISTING DATA IN A CRITICAL, SCIENTIFIC AND LOGICAL MANNER, HASTILY JUMP TO THE UNPROVEN/BASELESS CONCLUSIONS. THESE FELLAS DEFINITELY NEED TO BE EDUCATED ON REAL HISTORY AND ETHNICS.

Satbir Singh (talk) 19:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

AND THE SAME FELLOW HAS PRODUCED THE FOLLOWING TEXT FROM H. A. ROSE's GLOSSARY OF TRIBES:

Satbir Singh (talk) 19:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC) p. 442

"Kamboh-- The Kamboh is one of the finest cultivating castes in the Punjab.They are found in the upper Sutlej valley as low down as montgomery,throughout the northern portion of the eastern plains,and as low don the Jumna valley as Karnal.They are especially numerous in Kapurthala..."

p.443

"They claim descent from Raja Karan,and say that their ancestor fled to Kashmir.The Kamobhs of Bijnor also trace their origin to the trans-indus country,and Mr. Purser accepts this tradition as evidently true.They are said by some to be ancient inhabitants of Persia.Arains and Kambohs are commonly supposed to be closely related:indeed in Montgomery a man appears to be called Arain if he is Musalman and Kamboh if he is Hindu.But that this is not always the case is evident from the fact of a very considerable proportion of the Kambohs of Amritsar,Lahore,Ferozpur,Patiala,Nabha,and Maler kotla having returned themselves as Musalmans,although Musalman Arains are also numerous in these tracts.In Jullunder the village of Bhalowal is owned partly by Kambohs and partly by Arains,both being Musalmans.It is perhaps dountful whether the supposed relationship has any further basis than the fact that they both came from the west,and are both of much the same social standing and agricultural repute.It is highly probable that the nucleus of the Arain caste was a group of Hindu Kambohs converted to Islam. Thus in Jullunder the Gaure,Hande and momi clans are found in both castes,and in Montgomery several of their clan names are identical.It is said by some that the chief distinction is that the Kamboh take money for their daughters,while the Arains do not.But the social standing of the Kamboh is on the whole superior to that of the Arain and very markedly so where the latter is a vegetable -grower.The Kamobh moverover, is not a mere agriculturist.He not infrequently engages in trade,and even takes service in the army or in offices or even as a private servant,while his wife not infrequently lends money even where he is a mere husbandman;and under Akabar a Kamboh general called Shahbaz Khan commanded 5000 (9000) men and distinguished himself greatly in BengalMuslim Kambohs held Sohna in Gurgon some centuries ago;and the tombs and Mosques that they have left show that they must have enjoyed a considerable position.The military,mercantile,and clerkly Kamboh are said to be distinguished as Qalmi or 'men of the pen' and not to intermarry with the agricultural or Khaki section of the caste.The Kamboh do not seem to bear as high a character for honesty as they do for skill.There is a Persian proverb current in the united Provinces:"The Afghans,the kambohs,and the Kashmiris;all three are roughes(badzat)"..The Kambohs are said to be exceptionally numerous in Meerut. Their location under the hills lends some slight support to their tradition of origin from Kashmir..."

---

ON ARAIN vs KAMBOJ/KAMBOH & ARAIN vs JATT RELATISHIP

OUR RESPONDER:

HI Dudi, you seem to have little knowledge of history, so update your knowledge first since little knowledge could be dangerous.

FIRST OF ALL, THE KAMBOJ/KAMBOJ IS NOT A CASTE, THE KAMBOH/KAMBOJ ARE A VERY PRESTIGIOUS ANCIENT TRIBE KAMBOJAS (q.v.) OF THE INDO-IRANIANS, LIVING ANCIENTLY IN EAST IRAN, WHICH INCLUDED THE TERRITORIES NOW FORMING PARTS OF NORTH AFGHANISTAN AND TAJIKSTAN IN CENTRAL ASIA. AND ALSO BE INFORMED THAT THERE COULD ONLY BE AS MUCH CONNECTION BETWEEN THE KAMBOH/KAMBOJ TRIBE AND ARAIN CASTE AS IS BETWEEN THE JATT CASTE AND THE ARAIN CASTE (Both Jatt and Arains are castes; on the otherhand, the Kamboh (Kamboj) are not a caste, but definitively are a tribe, still carrying the vestiges of the ancient Kambojas (MUST READ Kambojas) ; Kamboja).

(1) ON JATT vs ARAINS':

• REF: Handbook of the Panjáb, Western Rajpútáná, Kashmír, and Upper Sindh, 1883, p 61, John Murray (Firm).

It is to be noted that the above title: Handbook of the Panjáb, Western Rajpútáná, Kashmír, and Upper Sindh, 1883, by John Murray and page161, clearly connects the Caste-Arain caste with the Jatt Caste. In this book, the Arains, in fact, are described as the real-blood cousins of the Jatts and are said to have descended from the same ancestors as the Jatts (ibid p 61)).

(2) ON KAMBOH/KAMBOH vs ARAIN:

On page 119 of his book titled: The Tribes and Castes of the North-western Provinces and Oudh, 1896, William Crooke, has affirmed that none of the 52 important clan-names of the Kamboh (Kamboja) of Punjab contain any Arain clan names. The three clan names i.e Gore/Gaure, Momi and the Hande are the only important common clans found among the Arain as well as the Kamboh. And the Kambohs deny any relation with the Arains, notes William Crooke (See: The Tribes and Castes of the North-western Provinces and Oudh, 1896 p 119).

Gore/Gori//Gaure and Hande/Handa clan names are also found among the Kamboj and Khatris community of Punjab also.

(COMMENT: The total Kamboh clans are about 200. About 20 minor clan-names of the Kamboh/Kamboj, out of a total of 200, overlap with those of the ARAINS)

JATT vs ARAIN CLAN NAMES: On the other hand, there are over 50-60 clan names among the Arains which are also shared by the Jatt Caste of Punjab. Also important to note that there is a Jatt clan called RAIN (prakritic/vernacular form of ARAIN). It is highly probable that this RAIN (Rain = Arain) formed the nucleus for the origin of Arain caste. It is, therefore, highly probable that name of the Arain caste has also originated from this Jatt clan name called RAIN/ARAIN

Based on the clan-name studies in late 19th century, British colonial writers like Ibbeston/Purser had first hypothesized that some population of the Arains may have came from the Kamboh/Kamboj. The final affirmation was to be postponed till the clan names of the Arains and Kamboh/Kamboj were compared side by side after 1881 census results were published. But as it turned out, the results of the census did not prove the hypothesis and did not establish/prove the Kamboj/Arain connections on the sharing of clan names. Rather, based on the criteria of clan-name sharing, the correlation between the Jats and the Arains was stronger than between the Kamboj and the Arains. Hence, William Crooke had correctly put down the above observations in 1896.

Ironically, one British writer named Purser, commented: ...."the Arain are usually supposed to be Muslim Kambohs. The Jullander Arains themselves say that they are descended from Rai Chajju of Ujjain. Kambohs claim descent from Raja Keran, who was related to him (i.e Rai Chajju)". Interestingly, this writer, (Purser) does not provide any referential sources for his above wild statement on Raja Karan and Rai Chajju and their connection to each other.

Who was RAI CHAJJU? and who was this RAJA KARAN? And which sources do say that they were RELATED??. And where are those HISTORICAL REFERENTIAL SOURCES located now, which Mr Purser has relied on??? In my 19 years of research, I have nor been able to find any ancient reference to RAI CCHAJJU, the so-called fore-father of the ARAINS or on his relationship to RAJA KARAN, the so-called ancestor of the KAMBOJ!

Frankly speaking, nothing could be more stupid and bull-shitty than the above wild and trashy statement of this British colonila writer (Purser). Based on this kind of mythical and misleading writings, many so-called half-baked scholars/political writers of modern times still continue to repeat this nonsense on every page, here and there, and every now and then, perhaps for sadistic reasons.

CLASSICAL CASE OF RAJA KARAN--THE SO-CALLED ANCESTOR OF THE KAMBOJS

By the way, if one reads Glossary of Tribes and Castes of Punjab by H. A. Rose, (The Bible of these half-baked modern ethnic writers), one would be surprised to notice many many weird/foolish things through out. THe readers are encouraged to go through the following text, if they have enough stamina and patience. All the following information on Raja Karan vs various Castes of Punjab has been collected from the writings of these colonial British writers of pre-partition days, like the Purser, the Ibettson and the Rose etc. These guys had collected this useful and scientific(!) 1information from the Great Mirasis of Punjab and recorded it faithfully as a part of the real history of the Punjabi Castes/People! Amusingly enough, many naive/credulous readers (this includes Kamboj, Jatts, Rajputs alike), who lack the analytical reasoning of their own, are over-gladdened to read this kind of non-sense and thus overly-boast about their mythical ancestory with RAJA KARAN or some other mythical Raja.....which is nothing more than a fanciful creation of the over-ingratiating Punjab Mirasis and the Bhatts. These resourceful and flatterting Mirasis can quite easily create one Raja for every TOM, DICK and HARRY clan/caste to seek their favors! Such myths can not be and should not be treated as a factual history.

EXAMPLES FROM THE GLOSSARY OF TRIBES/PANJAB CASTES ETC

[1] KHAKH JATT CLAN is descendent of RAJA KARAN.!. In Bahawalpur, this Jat tribe gave the following genealogy: Raja Karan had a son named Kamdo who had a son named Pargo who had a son named Janjuhan who had a son named Khakh. Khakh had four sons: Babbar, Gabbar (Gaawar/Gabar/Gawar), Rabbar, and Jhaggar (Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, H. A. Rose, p 31).

[2] BABAR JATT CLAN: Babbar is a Jatt clan in Dera Ghazi Khan- probably immigrants from the east or aboriginal- and in Bahawalpur. Babbar is said to be descedants of Raja Karan (See: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, H. A. Rose, p 31).

[3] JANJUHAN JATT CLAN: Janjuhan is a Mohammadan Jatt as well as Arain clan name. Janjuhan is also a descent of Raja Karan (Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, H. A. Rose, read pp 31 and 356 together).

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1569

[4] WARAH/BARAH, BARAH/WARAH..JATT clans descended from RAJA KARAN. Name derived from Sanskritic: Varaha which means boar. This tribe is said to be in Jullunder to be Rajputs descendend from Raja Karan of the Mahabharat (See Website below; See also: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, p 65, H. A. Rose")

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1012

[5] DHILLON, GORAYE/GORAYA JATS are descendents of RAJA KARAN! God Sun/Suraj had an illustrious son called Karana (refertence is obviously to Pandava’s elder brother, Karan/Kama ....a great charity giver) is stated by this tradition to have had four sons (1) Chattar Sain (2) Brikh Sain (3) Loh sain (4) Chandor Sain….. The Dhillon/Goraya Jats are described to be the descendents of this Loh sain, the above said son of Raja Karan. (See: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 237/238, H. A. Rose etc)

[6] THATHA/THATHIAL, NARU/NARWAHA JAT CLANS are descendents of RAJA KARAN! At another place of ROSE's GLOSSARY (p 467/468), the SAME legendary Raja Karan is stated to have fathered only two sons (1) Thathu (2) Naru…… and Glossary states...From Thathhu originated Thathal Jats/Rajputs and from Naru originated Narwaha gotras Jats/rajputs [Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol III, pp 467/468, H. A. Rose).

[7] At another place in the same classic books (by the colonial British Writers), the KHARRAL Rajput/KHARRALl Jat clans are also stated to be the descendants of Raja Bhupa who, according to H. A. Rose, was a direct descendant of RAJA KARAN and was originally settled in Uch/Multan (See: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 496, H. A. Rose; Punjab Castes, 1974 Edition, p 131, Denzil Ibbetson).

[8] H. A. Rose writes: "The Multan tradition discloses that the LANGHAHS (LAHNGAS) are PUNWARS and are allied to the KHARRALS, HARRALS, BHUTTAS, AND THE LAKS "( See: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 496, fn; See also: Multan Gazetteer, 1902, p 138). All these are thje so-called Jatt/Rajput clans (though Langhas are also found among the Kambohs, and Bhuttas are predominantly Arains). Since they are all related to the KHARRALS, as seen above, hence they are also to be treated as the descendants of the same Raja Karan.

[9] BARIA/VARYA, WARAH a Rajput tribe, said in Jullundur, to be Solar Rajput, descended from Raja Karan of the Mahabharata (See: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, p 65 by H.A. Rose).

[10] The KATHIAS of Ravi/Chenab Punjab also claim to be descendants of RAJA KARAN (See: Denzil Ibbetson , Punjab Castes, p 131; Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 482 fn, H. A. Rose).

[11] H. A. Rose as well as Denzil Ibbetson note that "The Kathias claim to be PUNWAR Rajputs" (See: Denzil Ibbetson , Punjab Castes, p 130, Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 482, H. A. Rose). This makes the PUNWARS who are related to the KATHIAS also the descendants of celebrated Raja Karan.

[12] The Kathias have TWO MAIN divisions viz. (1) The KATHIAS proper and (2) the BAGHELAS. Since Kathias are said to have descended from Raja Karan, and since the BAGHELAS are a section of the Kathias, hence by corollary, the BAGHELA rajputs are also the descendants of the same Raja Karan.

[13] Further more, the BALWANA and the PAWAR are said to be other leading clans of the KATHIAS and hence as a consequence, are also the descendants of same Raja Karan (See: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, pp 48, H. A. Rose; Punjab Castes, 1974, p 131, Denzil Ibbetson).

In nutshell, the the KATHIAS/KATHIS, BAGHELAS, BALWANAS and PAWARS are all the descendants of same celebrated Raja Karan.

[14] RAJPUT SECTIONS of KATHIAWAR also claim to be descendants of the same RAJA KARAN.(See: Denzil Ibbetson , Punjab Castes, p 131; See also: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 483, H. A. Rose)

(15] What is more funny/interesting, the Kamboj tribe is said to have originated from the same legendary RAJA KARAN (of Mahabharata?). (See numerous refs: Glossary of Tribes & Castes by H. Rose p 443-445; Also read: "Kamboh" in Panjab Castes by Denzil Ibbetson , pp 149/150; REPORT ON THE REVISED LAND REVENUE SETTLEMENT OF THE MONTGOMERY DISTRICT IN ..., 1878, p 50, C. A. Roe and W. E. Purser; Gazetteer of the Montgomery District (Sahiwal), 1883-84, Edition 1990, p 68, Punjab (Pakistan), Punjab (Pakistan - Sahiwal District (Pakistan); The Tribes and Castes of the North-western Provinces and Oudh, 1896, p 206, William Crooke - Ethnology; Folklore of the Punjab, 1971, p 8, Sohindara Siṅgha Waṇajārā Bedī - Folklore; Bibliotheca Indica, 1949, p 388, Royal Asiatic Society of Bengal, Asiatick Society (Calcutta, India); Punjabi Musalmans, 1991, p 89, J. M. Wikeley - Ethnology; ʻAin-i-Akbari of Abul Fazl-i-ʻAllami , 1948, p 388, Abū al-Faz̤l ibn Mubārak, Jadunath Sarkar; The Historical Background of Pakistan and Its People, 1973, p 128; An Observation: Perspective of Pakistan, 1987, p 100, Ahmed Abdulla; Punjab, the Land of Beauty, Love, and Mysticism, 1992, p 211, Syed Abdul Quddus - Punjab (India); See also: Kamboj Itihaas, p 7, 1972, H. S. Thind). And the learned and very knowledgeable Mirasees of the Kambojs of Panjab also flatter the Kamboj population by stating that their ancestor, RAJA KARAN, was a great charity-giver and used to donate 50 ser (40 kg) of gold to the poors every day, before taking his breakfast!!!!!!!.

[16] The Kakezai caste claim origin from Afghans and alos cliam as descendents of Kakka, son of (RAJA) KARAN. (Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 355, H. A. Rose)

[17] According to Punjab Gazetteer, the Arains Caste of Pakistan (which is numbering about 70 milliosn?) are said to be descendants of /related to RAJA KARAN! This is because Rai Chajju (i.e. RAI JAJ OF Mr W. E. PURSER, H. A. ROSE & WILLIAM CROOKE etc), the ancestor of most of the Arains, was a relative of RAJA KARAN as the very scholarly writers like Ahmed Abdulla or Syed Abdul Quddus declare (See: The Historical Background of Pakistan and Its People, 1973, p 128; An Observation: Perspective of Pakistan, 1987, p 100, Ahmed Abdulla; Punjab, the Land of Beauty, Love, and Mysticism, 1992, p 211, Syed Abdul Quddus - Punjab (India)).

[18] Bhutta (Bhutto) clan of the Arains of Jalandhar Tehsil stated that they were descendants of Raja Bhutta, fifth in descent from Raja Karan, and were settled originally in Uch (Refs: North Indian Notes and Queries, 1896, p 64; ˜The tribes and castes of the north-western provinces and Oudh in four..., 1999, p 206, William Crooke; North Indian Notes and Queries, 1896, p 64, Mythology, Hindu; Jalandhar Settlement Report, p 82, sqq ; Cf: ˜The œtribes and castes of the north-western provinces and Oudh…, 1999 edition, p 206, William Crooke; See also: North Indian Notes and Queries, 1896, p 64, Hindu Mythology; A Glossary of the Tribes & Castes of the Punjab & North-west Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 15, H. A. Rose etc). The Buttas, along with Harrals, Punwars, Laks, as seen above are also the sections of Kharrals (Multan Gazetteer, 1902, p 138)

[19] The Bhuttas/Bhuttos (a clan of the Jatts & Rajputs) would similarily be the descendants of the legendary RAJA KARAN, since Bhutta/Bhutto is merely a clan name and is shared by Arains, Rajputs and the Jatts. Since clan names are always a fixed parameter whereas tribe or caste may change, hence the Bhuttas/Bhuttos found among the Arains , Rajputs and the Jatts come of the same original stock and hence all must be descendants of same Raja Karan.

[20] The Story does not end here!!!. One only needs to go through each & every page of these Bibles of the Punjab Castes written by these great British Gazetteers of 19th/20th c AD to fully learn as to how many more of the Panjab tribes/clans can be said to have descended from the (KAMBOJ) RAJA KARAN....Probably the list would be endless!!

BTW: If RAJA KARAN was indeed the ancestor of the Kamboh/Kamboj tribe (and also of the ARAINS, as these colonial era Bible books want us to believe, and which many modern half-baked scholars like Mr Ahmed Abdulla, Syed Abdul Quddus and their ilk also thoughtlessly continue to promote and repeat on every page, here and there), then, this RAJA KARAN, definitely can't be the Pandava brother RAJA KARNA who had fought in Mahabharata war. This is because the Kambojs/Kambohs, WHO ARE OTHERWISE SAID TO BE HIS SUPPOSED DESCENDANTS, were already existing in millions at the time of this KAURAVA/PANDAVA RAJA KARAN, and had participated in the Mahabharata war with full division (Akshauhin) army of the the wrathful warriors which besides the Kambojas, also included the Shakas, Yavans, Tukharas and the Khasass. And very interestingly, in the same Kurukshetra war, the legendary RAJA KARAN had also participated on behalf of the Kauravas.

See: Kurukshetra War and the Kambojas.

Furthermore, if this legendary RAJA KARAN was indeed a Kamboj/Kamboh, then how come so many non-Kamboj clans like the Jat/Rajput clans (DHILLON, GORAYA, THATHIAL, KHAKH, VARYA, BRAH, BARIA, WARAH, NARU, NARWAHA, KATHIS, KAKEZAI, KHARRALS, PAWARS, LAKS, HARRALS, THE RAJPUTS (OF SURASHTER/KATHIAWAD), THE BHUTTOS/BHUTTAS and the KATHIAS OF RAVI/CHENAB etc) could also be the descedants of the same (KAMBOJ) RAJA KARAN, unless these JATTS/RAJPUTS/KATHAS/BHUTTOS/KATHIS/KHARRALS/PUNWARS/BAGHELAS/BALWANAS/PAWARS etc along with the ARAINS, were ALL ORIGINALLY FROM the Kamboj/Kamboh race?. If this is accepted, (which has to be accepted if the colonial Pursers, Wilsons, Roses and Ibbetsons etc are to be believed), then all these DHILLON, GORAYA, THATHIAL, KHAKH, VARYA, BRAH, BARIA, WARAH, NARU, KHARRAL, HARRAL, BABBAR, LAK, PAWAR, JANJUHAN, NARWAHA, KATHIS, KAKEZAI, ALL RAJPUTS OF SURASHTER/KATHIAWAD, THE BHUTTOS/BHUTTAS, PUNWARS, BAGHLESA, BALWANAS, and, of course, the ARAINS must be accepted, without any hitch or hindrance, purely as a Kamboh/Kamboja breed-- the modern representatives of the famed ancient Kshatriyas of Mahabharata fame, known as the Kambojas, who are also said to be the forefathers of the modern Kamboj/Kamboh communty of Punjab/North-eastern Afghanistan. (DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO THE NAIVE READERS WHO BELIEVE IN THE LEGENDARY RAJA KARAN??????).

The Kambojs/Gandhars are one of the earliest and very ancient known Indo=Iranic tribes of north-west (now Indian Punjab and Pakistan). The Jatts, Rajputs, Arains, Kharals, Khokhars, Awans etc are merely the caste names and are only a phenomenon which occured much later in time on the Indian soil. All these occupational (Caste) names must be assumed to have been derived/evolved from the diverse ethnics of the Kambojas, Sakas, Pahlavas, Yavanas, Paradas, Kushanas, Hunas, Gurjaras etc. Since all the above mentioned ancient tribes, (NOTE: A minuscule population of the Kamboj, Kathis and Gujjar tribes, are still maintaining their ancient Tribal Identity), have already completely lost their original tribal Identity and therefore, have shifted from the TRIBAL DOMAIN into the CASTE-DOMAIN, it logically follows therefore that the Jatts, the Arains, the Rajputs and numerous other Indo-Iranic castes of the modern north-west regions, must have all evolved/derived from the above referred to ancient tribes of the Kambojas, Kambojas, Pahlavas, Paradas, Yavanas, Risikas/Yuechis, Hunas, and Gurjaras of the antiquity etc. Of course, many of the above said tribes were allied/cognate tribes, as some ancient references reveal. There could be no other explaination possible.

See Raja Karan: Raja Karan

MORAL OF THE STORY

One should not put too much confidence and trust on these PURSERS, IBETTSONS, ROSES AND THE LIKES....the British Designed Gazetteers of the nineteenth century. British Raj had its own mottos and Ajenda. These writers, sure enough, compiled and recorded more of the fictions, myths and nonsense as relayed to them by the Punajb Miraasis/Bhatts and are therefore, are more of MYTHICAL than historical information.

Unfortunately, it is a legacy of the same kind of the British colonial mentality that some of the modern political-writers like Ahmed Abdulla, Syed Abdul Qudduss etc till continue to stick to this unproved and outdated hypothesis of the Arain vs Kamboj connections.

Satbir Singh (talk) 03:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

THE ARAIN CASTE OF PAKISTAN SHARES OVER 50-60 OF THEIR CLAN NAMES WITH THE JATTS OF PANJAB

If one analyses Jatt vs Arains clan names, one will observe that over 50-60 clans of the Jatts overlap with those of the Arains. For purpose of illustration, below are given FEW of the many common Jatt-Arain clan found among the Jatts and the Arains: Bhatti, Khokhar, Langah, Bhutta, Joiya, Sindhu, Dhudi, Bassi/Basi, Chandor, Rain, Nain, Gilan, Wahandi, Thind, Gandhi, Sohi, Gal, Gaolon/Gelan/Gilan, Lahnga etc etc. There are numerous more common names in the complete list. The Arains also share several (about 20) of their names with the Rajput castes, and similar numbers with the Kamboj/Kamboh tribe also. Some clans-names of Arains are also shared with the Saini caste of Punjab. The (Kamboh/Kamboj have over 200 total clan names of their own as already stated before).

ON KAMBOJ/KAMBOH & ARAIN HYPOTHESIS

The ARAIN vs KAMBOH hypothesis is fundamentally wrong. The Kamboj is a very ancient prestigiou Iranic tribe where as Arains, like the the Jatts and Rajputs, are a mere Caste name. Further, the Kamboj population was about 190,000 in 1880 AD, where as the Arains were probably been over 4-7 million strong in 1880. How can a derived-caste (of ARAINS) could outnumber its supposedly parent-tribe (KAMBOH), in such HUGE NUMBERS, unless the derived-caste (ARAIN) was a mixture of numerous other hotchpotch castes, including the Jatt caste and Rajput castes also. Here, the Arains, like the Jatt & the Rajput caste etc are also, surely, a mixed caste (Dr M. S. Randhawa) and contain many diverse-elements from many diverse ancient sources. i.e they have absorbed/imbibed elements from other portions of the neighboring population like the Jatts, the Rajputs and similar groups down the time, who, in turn, were ALL, in all probability, derived from the ancient Tribal population of the Sakas, Kambojas, Pahlavas, Paradas, Yavanas, Kushanas, Hunas, Gurjaras etc etc. In conclusion, the glaring fact that about 50-60 number of the Arain clans are shared with the Jatt castes, about 20 clans with the Rajput castess and 20 with the Kamboj tribe (ancient Kambojas),...this is a very sufficient and strong enough proof that the Arains, in all probability, are connected predominantly with or related to the Jatts, as John Murray has written in his above book.

Satbir

Unreferenced additions, requiring references before being put into the article

Naseem Hijazi -- Famous novelist

Qudrat-ul-llah Shahab -- Famous writer

Admiral Haji Mohammad Siddique (HMS) Chaudhri -- The first Pakistani Naval Chief.

Admiral Ahmed Tasnim -- The commander of submarine PNS Hangor the day she sank the Indian frigate INS Khukri during the 1971 Indo-Pakistani War. Also only officer in Navy to have been awarded Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ) & Bar.

Mian Azhar - Former Governor of Punjab, Pakistan.

Mian Abdul Rashid - One of the most prestigious contracter of Pakistan.

Sir Mian Mohammad Shafi, one of the founders of Muslim League and a leading pre-partition politician.

Admiral Haji Mohammad Siddique(HMS) Chaudhri -- The first Pakistani Naval Chief

Naseem Hijazi -- Famous novelist

Qudrat Ullah Shahab -- Famous writer

Vice Admiral Ahmed Tasnim -- The commander of submarine PNS Hangor that sank the Indian frigate INS Khukri during the 1971 Indo-Pakistani War. Also only officer in Navy to have been awarded Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ) & Bar.

Mian Abdulhaq Nishan-e-pakistan,Nishan-e-Quaide Azam activist of pakistan movement and close to Mr.Jinnah.Prominent figure of District sahiwal old Montgomery.Ex-Mla parlimentry sacretary.

Mian Charagh Din of Niami (a prominent Arain figure of punjab,25-years unopposed president district board Montgomery,khansaab)

Mian Muhamad Zaman (EX-Fedral Minister,A prominent Arain figure of pakistan)

Begum Jahanara Shahnawaz, daughter of Sir Muhammad Shafi and wife of Mian Sir Muhammad Shah Nawaz . She was very active in the Pakistan movement and played a prominent role in the Direct Action or Civil Disobedience Movement launched by the Muslim League in the Punjab on January 24 1947 against the coalition government of Sir Khizr Hayat Khan Tiwana.

Muhammad Hanif Ramay, chief minister of the Punjab during the 1970s. He was a writer and a painter.

Sardar Asif Ahmed Ali, Pakistan's foreign minister during the 1990s.

Mian Sir Muhammad Shafi,an All-India level leader of the Muslim League from Lahore. The Shafi League was once rival to the Jinnah League in the late 1920s.

Mian Sir Abdur Rashid, first chief justice of Pakistan's Supreme court.

CH ASGAR CURRENT MPA FROM LAHORE IS AN ARAIN FROM PML(Q)

CH YAQOOB EX CONTROLLER OF PUNJAB UNIVERSITY FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS IS AN ARAI

For Ishtiaq Ahmed Lahori

This is what was added:

Mian Sir Muhammad Shafi of Baghbanpura, Lahore, was a leader of the Muslim League in the 1920s.

(Mian Sir Fazli Husain, the first Chief Minister of the Punjab was not an Arain. He was a Rajput. Burki is wrong)

(Mian Amiruddin, mayor of Lahore at the time of the Partition of India was a Kashmiri and not an Arain,Burki is wrong).

Now lack of awareness of your literary standards abounds, but it is certain that comments such as "So and so is wrong", without providing multiple references to back up the point, are entirely worthless and cannot be considered. You may well be correct in your assertions, but why not post the necessary references here on the talk page before such brutal vandalism? Kneeslasher 15:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

For Kneelasher,

The psuedonym you have chosen is quite "revealing". Personally I would have expected a proper name to communicate with someone teaching others about the rules of reference and how to write English and so on. Talking to a phantom is hardly a good way of making scientific assertions. But let me return to substantive matters with regard to what I wrote on the Arain:

Mian Sir Muhammad Shafi of Baghbanpura, Lahore, was a leader of the Muslim League in the 1920s.

(Mian Sir Fazli Husain, the first Chief Minister of the Punjab was not an Arain. He was a Rajput. Burki is wrong)

(Mian Amiruddin, mayor of Lahore at the time of the Partition of India was a Kashmiri and not an Arain,Burki is wrong).

Forget my literary standards for the moment although I have written three books and have been writing a weekly column since May 2002, first in Daily Times and now in the News International. What sort of reference would you want to establish the authenticity of a certain information? Suppose someone publishes a book but it has incorrect information. what would you do in that case? With regard to the items given above let me say the following:
1. About Sir Muhammad Shafi and his daughter Begum Shah Nawaz you can read their family history in the book by Begum Shah Nawaz, "Father and Daughter: A Political Biography" Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2002.
2. About Sir Fazli Hussain, just google on "Sir Fazli Hussain" and you will find Khaled Ahmed's article in Daily Times. I have also interviewed his son Ashiq Hussain and anyone who knows anything about politics knows that Mian Sir Fazli Hussain was a Bhatti Rajput.
3. About Mian Amiruddin I don't have any article to present but his son Mian Salauddin married Alama Iqbal's daughter and they have a son Yusaf Salauddin. The Mians of Barood Khana inside the Walled city of Lahore are Kashmiris.

Ishtiaq Ahmed Lahori

Common knowledge is not equivalent to a reference, despite its pervasiveness. And your three published books count for nothing in this arena since published work is no prerequisite for unbiased writing, even if it is in the same field. As for wrong information in a book, you'd better provide one or two countervailing references to rebut possible errors: your word is not enough.

You seem to be providing bona fide sources for the additions you are proposing though: so why not actually do the work and cite all the links instead of asking to be believed on faith in your integrity?

Kneeslasher 12:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way Kneeslasher you are using Ishtiaq's article in daily times as a reference to this article. Your problem is, you think you are only wise guy in this world but I am sorry, you are not.

And that is meant to affect me... how? Am I meant to suddenly delete the article's contribution because it has been made by someone whom I have had a discussion with and is therefore my "enemy"? And jump up and down and gibber with rage mayhap? This is exactly the type of childish silly behaviour which ensures this article needs constant vigilance. If the reference exists, then it is valid to use it. If it is by I A Lahori, then I would exhort I A Lahori to make contributions of a similar nature to the article, duly referenced of course.

Kneeslasher 21:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok tell me one thing what references I A Larori provided in his daily times article about the things he wrote, but you believed it because it fits your thinking? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.195.19.59 (talk) 21:53, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

Somehow I don't think my thinking comes into it since I'm not a professor of anthropology specialising in tribes of the Punjab. A verifiable reference is a verifiable reference, Wikipedia authors' feelings notwithstanding. Not a single web link has been provided by many of the authors dying to contribute to this article, yet somehow averse to backing up their proposed changes/additions.

Kneeslasher 17:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)