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Talk:Anna Sorokin/Archive 1

< Talk:Anna Sorokin
Latest comment: 2 years ago by SoWhy in topic Russian mob reference
Archive 1

Anna Delvey Wikipedia Records

Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Anna Delvey was indicted, not charged with multiple felonies and one misdemeanor, so that was my mistake. She is also innocent until proven guilty, but is being charged with attempted Grand Larceny in the First Degree, a class C felony, two counts, Grand Larceny in the Second Degree, a class C felony, three counts, Grand Larceny in the Third Degree, a class D felony, one count, and Theft of Services, class A misdemeanor, one count. [1]

There is enough evidence of these crimes I think it should be made clear upfront that this woman has been involved in criminal activities. It's her entire claim to fame.

I have had three or more revisions to this page removed, so I'm hoping someone can make sense of the information I am providing here and we can have an accurate description of this person along with perhaps a more rich, and full detailed Wikipedia page for her.

According to a New York District Attorney “This defendant’s alleged criminal conduct spans from check fraud to six-figure stolen loans and includes schemes that resulted in a free trip to Morocco and travel on private planes.” [2]

I think what's most strange about her short Wikipedia bio, which appears when anyone searches her name on Google, is that nowhere does it mention the fact that she's scammed people out of hundreds of thousands of dollars or that the reason she is known to the public has to do with criminal charges. Is there a reason that this isn't being included?

"Anna Sorokin, better known as Anna Delvey, is a Russian-German woman who was involved in the socialite scene in Manhattan." This is the Wikipedia result that appears on Google when searching Anna Delvey. Seriously...?

When I added the fact that Anna committed check-fraud this was also taken off of the main description more than once. I'm guessing this is due to her being innocent until proven guilty, but this fact is verifiable with the New York District Attorney. [3]

She's not in jail for nothing..

Astro7770 (talk) 18:15, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

@Astro7770: The article already includes a "Arrest and Fame" section. What's the problem here? The article is not going to assert the claims of the of DA in Wikipedia's voice. "Innocent until proven guilty" means just that; we can't call it a "fact" that anyone committed anything, unless they are convicted of the crime. See WP:BLPCRIME. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 18:57, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.manhattanda.org/da-vance-announces-indictment-repeat-scammer-multiple-thefts-totaling-275000/
  2. ^ https://www.manhattanda.org/da-vance-announces-indictment-repeat-scammer-multiple-thefts-totaling-275000/
  3. ^ https://www.manhattanda.org/da-vance-announces-indictment-repeat-scammer-multiple-thefts-totaling-275000/

Con artist description

Latest comment: 5 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

I tried to describe Anna Delvey as a con artist, and user SoWhy removed that description and proceeded to remove other con artist related categories. Should a German lawyer (user:SoWhy) really be modifying the page of a con artist who also was previously employed by a German public relations firm? Also, a con artist doesn't have to be charged with a crime to be described as a con artist... See the New York and Vanity Fair article. For example, the characters in film Ocean's 11 are con artists, but they may not have been charged with crimes in the various cons they committed. I don't see how being a con artist and being charged with a crime are entirely related.Smellyshirt5 (talk) 15:56, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

@Smellyshirt5: I fail to see how my job or nationality have anything to do with it unless you believe all Germans know each other and all German lawyers must work for said firm? I gave you the reason for removal, it's the policy at WP:SUSPECT. A con artist is per dictionary definition "A person who defrauds or swindles others after first gaining their trust" (see also definitions by Merriam-Webster, Cambridge Dictionary and Collings for example that all amount to the same). Delvey is accused of being a con artist but like all those accused of a crime she is innocent until proven guilty. That has not happened. That other sources do not follow this basic standard is not a reason to ignore our core policies. On a side note, I cannot find the word "con artist" being used in New York or Vanity Fair (okay, once in the latter but in a direct quote). Regards SoWhy 16:08, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
One doesn't have to be convicted of a crime to be considered a con artist. Some sort of conundrum there. And no, I don't think that all Germans know each other. In any case, it impedes my addition of Anna Delvey to the List of con artists article. Perhaps you could add a different German con artist to that page? Thanks, Smellyshirt5 (talk) 17:14, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
@Smellyshirt5: Well, since the very definition is "someone who swindles" people, I would argue the opposite but how about we ask for a third opinion on it? That way we can get a neutral editor involved. As for the unrelated part, I think de:Adele Spitzeder would make a good addition to en-wiki in general, seeing as this was probably the first time a ponzi scheme was used by anyone as far as recorded history goes. I'll start a rough translation (look for it at Draft:Adele Spitzeder) but I probably need to research some references before it can be used. Regards SoWhy 18:06, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree that she qualifies as a con-artist, regardless of criminal conviction. Genetikbliss (talk) 03:39, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

  • This issue has already been resolved elsewhere on this page, but we don't need to treat it as a precedent of any particular kind. All we need to do is consult WP:BLPCRIME. At the present time, she is not well known for anything apart from these accusations and she has not been convicted of a crime. A con artist is, by definition, a person who tricks or cheats people by persuading them that something is true when it is not true. At this point, she has not been proven to have done that, therefore she is not a con artist. That, together with the fact that Wikipedia is not a soap box, means that it's inappropriate to describe her as a con artist, regardless of however much anybody might prefer to call her one.Twistlethrop (talk) 14:21, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Oct. 30 court appearance (would be convicted later)

Latest comment: 5 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

I was seeing that, before today, as her next court appearance. Did that take place? I see"convicted"; when did that kick in? Carlm0404 (talk) 00:13, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

@Carlm0404: It didn't as far as I can determine. The edit has been reverted as unsourced. Not even the unreliable Daily Mail claims she is convicted, just that another court hearing took place. Regards SoWhy 10:54, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Since the above exchange, information about Dec. 18 court appearance has been added. Carlm0404 (talk) 13:15, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

News arriving today says she is now, INDEED, convicted. Carlm0404 (talk) 01:15, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Contradiction about location

Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Intro: "Sorokin is incarcerated at Albion Correctional Facility."

Later: "Sorokin was incarcerated at Rikers Island during the trial, but is currently incarcerated at Bedford Hills Correctional Facility as of May 15, 2019."73.219.103.208 (talk) 14:44, 16 December 2019 (UTC)burgo

Probably a problem with outdated information. I'll fix it. Regards SoWhy 15:11, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

immigration (RUS-->GER) ?

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

"The family moved to Germany in 2007" 1) Why? 2) How? (It was+is not possible/easy for normal Russians.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16b8:2aec:5400:1df:2cb8:3e8e:738 (talk) 20:54, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Some russian troll user says the nypost is not a reliable source for life story rights of $320,000 from netflix

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Some guy named Schazjmd undid some source from the NYPost, which claims Anna Sorokin was paid $320,000 for her life story rights. He claims the NYPost is not reliable. I uhm, would say that that is probably not true. But anyway here's the citation. He sounds kind of like a Russian hacker to me based on the immediacy of the removal of my edit and the way I was logged out when I first tried to make the edit... but who knows? source: Rebecca Rosenberg (February 11, 2021). "Fake heiress Anna Sorokin released early from prison". nypost.com. Retrieved February 11, 2021. Weird stuff man... Smellyshirt5 (talk) 00:19, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

The Post is a tabloid, and while all tabloids aren't intrinsically unreliable, we do generally avoid using them as references. --Ef80 (talk) 15:17, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

Latest comment: 2 years ago25 comments2 people in discussion
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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Anna Sorokin/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Aussie Article Writer (talk · contribs) 07:01, 17 July 2021 (UTC)


Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
  1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. I did some very minor copyedits, however the prose is quite clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct.
  1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
  • The lead (including the infobox) has too many citations. In general we avoid citations in the lead section, because it is just a summary of the content of the article. I suggest redistributing the citations through the article. See WP:CITELEAD.
  • I don't believe there needs to be a subsection in "Trial and conviction" called "Sentence". Perhaps rename it to "Trial, conviction and sentencing". However, I suggest (but for the purposes of the GA, it is not strictly necessary) merging "Post-release" with the previous section.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
  2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
  2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
  • Lead and infobox:
    • seems OK, but as above we need to migrate these references into the body of the article. Note: I have switched to {{cite news}} and corrected the url-access parameters for the NYTimes (they are subscription, not merely registration).
    • What is the source for her Russian name, which is Анна Сорокина?
      • Cited to the Komsomolskaya Pravda source.
  1. Early life:
    • I looked at the Google translated version of the source that says she grew up in Domodedovo, but it doesn't seem to have this information. I acknowledge that this may be the translation or my reading of it. However, I would request that we add the Russian quote with the translated version via the quote and trans-quote parameters.
      • Sorry, I clearly missed it. Just noticed it in the article. Striking objection. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 09:24, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
    • The Tech Times references this article. I suggest adding "citing" and then list this news article. However, I'm not convinced that The Tech Times is necessarily the more reliable source for this article, can we find a better one?
      • I've removed the Tech Times source as it didn't add anything the Komsomolskaya Pravda source doesn't already have. We don't need to cite that Domodedovo is a satellite town of Moscow separately.
    • There seems to be conflict sources for the following: "She attended the gymnasium in Eschweiler and was described by classmates as a quiet girl who had a difficult time with the German language." This cites The Cut However, the Russian news source from Komsomolskaya Pravda quotes a friend that "'Anya and I have been best friends since the second grade,' says Sorokina's classmate Anastasia. - She was an excellent student. Anka was best given foreign languages, Russian and literature. She was very well developed. After school she studied English, German and French additionally, went to dances. She always easily found a common language with everyone. True, people were afraid of her. Anka is very strong in character, not everyone could withstand her. Could easily offend with a mockery. But she always did it very subtly.'"
      • I read that quote as relating to Sorokin's schooling in Russia, rather than her time in Germany - I don't think they conflict directly. There are certainly lots of sources (including some in German FWIW) that describe her as having a hard time with German in Eschweiler and being "quiet", although this could of course be circular reporting.
    • Due to the NY Times needing a subscription, I'm not sure if the following two sentences are using this source for the following: "Sorokin graduated from high school in 2011 and relocated to London to attend Central Saint Martins, but quit and returned to Germany. She worked as an intern at a public relations company before relocating to Paris to begin an internship for the French fashion magazine Purple."
      • No, that's sourced to The Cut - the source must have gotten lost along the way in rewrites. Restored!
  2. Life as a fake heiress and fraud offenses
    • What is the source for "During the summer of 2013 Sorokin travelled to New York City to attend New York Fashion Week." and "Finding it easier to make friends in New York than Paris, she opted to stay, transferring to Purple's New York office for a brief time."?
      • It's the "nytsentencing" source, which I've now made explicit.
    • We have two sources for the following: "Sorokin invited three friends on what she told them was an "all-expenses-paid" journey to Marrakesh, Morocco in May 2017, supposedly because she needed to 'reset' her Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA). A few days after arriving at La Mamounia, hotel staff said that they had been unable to charge Sorokin's credit cards, and demanded an alternative form of payment. Sorokin eventually convinced one of her companions, Rachel DeLoache Williams, to pay the $62,000 bill for their stay, with a promise to reimburse her via wire transfer. Williams later paid for other expenses during the trip, including items purchased by Sorokin and a visit to the Majorelle Garden. Despite repeated promises from Sorokin, no wire transfer occurred." We really need to know what statement uses what source, so following the principle of keeping sources close to the text could you clarify this?
      • Hmm - not sure what "nytguilty" is doing there. Removed.
    • What is the source of "Upon returning from Morocco during May, Sorokin relocated to the Beekman Hotel, again managing to book without leaving a credit card on file. Around three weeks later, having accumulated a bill of $11,518 and failing to pay despite repeated promises, the Beekman also evicted her."?
  3. Indictment and arrest
    • Again, we have two sources for multiple statements: "A grand jury was convened in August 2017 to consider the charges against Sorokin. It eventually indicted her on two counts of attempted grand larceny in the first degree, three counts of grand larceny in the second degree, one count of grand larceny in the third degree, and one count of misdemeanor theft of services. The most serious charge related to the fraudulent loan application made to City National Bank and Fortress Investment Group, with the other larceny charges relating to the instances of check fraud and the incident in Morocco. The theft of services charge related to Sorokin's failure to pay hotel and restaurant bills". Please clarify what sources apply to what statement.
  4. Trial and conviction - all sources I can read check out, noting that I don't have a subscription to The Times or NY Times
  5. Post-release: - all sources check out
  6. Media representation: all sources look good (at least with the WSJ I can see the first few paragraphs!)
  2c. it contains no original research.
  2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.
3. Broad in its coverage:
  3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. There is a book out about this, but I don't see any citations to it except the one I added. I am putting this as a question, but I would think to be complete it might be worthwhile ensuring this got some coverage.
You're thinking of My Friend Anna by Rachel DeLoache Williams. The book is mentioned in the article (in "Media representation") but doesn't really offer much more than Williams' articles do in terms of sourcing (I've read it).
In that case, I will pass this criteria :-) - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 13:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
  3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
  4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
  • "Throughout the trial, Spodek attempted to humanize his client, claiming that she had been trying to pay back all the debt." this is problematic. We cannot say that he was trying to humanize his client, as this is subjective. If someone says that Spodek were trying to humanize Sorokin, then we say that "such and such says that throughout the trial Spodek attempted to humanize his client".
  5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
  6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. No images in article, this does not prevent it from being a Good Article.
Unfortunately non-free images aren't allowed for BLPs per WP:MUG, and no Commons-compatibly-licensed images of Sorokin appear to exist.
Oh! I actually didn't know that! Thanks for letting me know. I seem to write about dead people mostly, so that's why I never knew about this... - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 13:14, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
  6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. No images in article, this does not prevent it from being a Good Article.
  7. Overall assessment.

Discussion

  • This will not affect the article, but shouldn't we have a decent photo of Sorokin? even one under fair use? Just a general question, with no baring on the GA status of this article. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 09:11, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Firefly I see you have done a few changes already, thanks! Sorry this took so long to review, I am trying to navigate a very confusing bureaucracy called the NSW government relating to lockdown health orders (long story) so I am reviewing whilst waiting for someone to pick up the phone. Anyway, I actually think this is an excellent article, and with some changes it will easily become GA. Ping me when you have done the changes so I can review. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 10:51, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
    • @Aussie Article Writer: I'm glad you liked the article, and thank you for the review. Various tweaks (mostly citation related) made, have a look and see what you think. firefly ( t · c ) 13:08, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
      • @Firefly: I gotta get some sleep (it's 11:12pm here in Sydney, and I have to get to a vaccination appointment tomorrow!), I will try to look tomorrow. Thanks for working on this article, I remember hearing about it ages ago and always wondered what happened! Now I know. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 13:12, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Name Sorokin/Sorokina

Latest comment: 3 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion

Source is for "Sorokina" but the article and media use "Sorokin". Do we have, for example, a source she changed her surname to "Sorokin"? (BTW I am aware of the linguistic relation between Sorokin and Sorokina.) Thanks, WikiHannibal (talk) 10:08, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't think a source is needed for a change because there probably was no official proceedings. The -a suffix of Russian names is usually not kept when Russians move to western countries (like Germany). Afaik (family law is not my area of expertise though), since the German naming system does not have different suffixes for men and women, German law does not allow married Russian immigrants to keep two different names (basically) and instead uses the male form throughout, so if you choose to apply German law upon naturalization, you can remove parts of the name that the German law does not have, see Art. 47 of the introductory law to the German Civil Code. I assume that was what happened here. However, we don't need a source for that change. The name "Sorokin" is the WP:COMMONNAME that all sources use, so we use it as well. Why she dropped the -a is not relevant, is it? Regards SoWhy 12:35, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Because there is no actual info about her German citizenship or doublecitizenship (Russian and German which are allowed in both countries) nor her passport ID, and because her born ID is Russian, it is correct to use Sorokina as her surname, because it is female inclination of this surname, when Sorokin - is a male variant of this surname.

It is wrong practice to justify inclination of surname just because it was used in media and press, because they can actually reprint the mistake from the source. If you will read press on eastern slavic languages they use Sorokina even on her German time period. We should use fact as her official ID documentations or language norms of language of origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Капеллан Андрей (talk • contribs) 15:14, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

@Капеллан Андрей: No, we use the name the sources use. That Eastern Slavic sources use "Sorokina" is most likely because they recognize an Eastern Slavic name for a female subject. However, basically no other language sources use this form as far as I can tell, nor did official sources (like the district attorney of Manhattan). Even The Moscow Times used "Sorokin".
I added a source confirming that she is a German national as well. German law does not recognize female inclinations (see above). There is no source that states that she still is a Russian citizen, so assuming it would be original research. On a side note, German citizenship law included a provision until 19 December 2014 that one had to decide between two citizenships until their 23rd birthday (see de:Deutsche_Staatsangehörigkeit#Optionspflicht_bis_19._Dezember_2014 on German Wikipedia). Sorokin's 23rd birthday took place while this law was in effect (30 January 2014), so she would have had to decide between German and Russian citizenship at this point. So even if we were to use original research, it would lead us to her only being German at least since 2014. That would also explain why she was extradited to Germany and not Russia after her prison sentence. Regards SoWhy 15:45, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
@SoWhy: Are you sure she has German citizenship? I mean how could she pass one, when due to procedure she should have been in Germany for 7 - 8 years and pass the test to end the procedure.

She left Russia somewhere in 2007 and left Germany in 2013. Example: https://www.germany-visa.org/immigration-residence-permit/german-citizenship/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Капеллан Андрей (talk • contribs) 16:23, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

@Капеллан Андрей: I know that reliable sources (such as Sky News) say she is a German national. How she came to be one, is secondary. For example, Art 116 of the German Basic Law grants immediate citizenship to descendants of Germans who were expatriated by the Nazi regime on request and § 10 StAG allows naturalization for children even before eight years are over if one parent has a right to citizenship. But again, that is all speculation. We don't use our own conclusions to decide whether she is German or Russian or both but what reliable sources state. And those I found that mention nationality, all say she is German, e.g. "As a German citizen..." (NBC News), "Ms Sorokin, a German citizen..." (The Independent), "Because Ms Sorokin is a German citizen..." (The Evening Standard), "In a statement US Immigration and Customs Enforcement said Sorokin was a German citizen..." (The Telegraph). Personally, I think if ICE says she is German, they probably have a good reason to say so. PS: Please remember to sign your comments with ~~~~ so that people know you made them. Also, the {{re}} template does only work if you signed your post. Regards SoWhy 18:44, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:07, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Russian mob reference

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The Sky News article doesn’t mention the Russian mob yet it’s used for the citation. Suggest removal Matt Zero (talk) 16:31, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

@Soul phire: Good catch, I removed that. In the future, feel free to make such changes yourself since we cannot have negative material about living people without sources. Regards SoWhy 16:35, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
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