Talk:Alfred Sully/GA1
Latest comment: 22 hours ago by Dwkaminski in topic GA Review
GA Review
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Nominator: Dwkaminski (talk · contribs) 13:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 14:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Sully was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on May 22, 1880" - the year is obviously a typo here
- fixed to 1820 Dwkaminski (talk) 11:43, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Several of the references provide an 1821 date of birth, and the source that discusses his painting at age 13 says he was 13 in 1834? Hog Farm Talk 13:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- It is unclear which year he was born in. I listed both as possible. Dwkaminski (talk) 11:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Donner60 - Does Civil War High Commands have an entry for Sully? That source is usually fairly authoritative. It looks to me like the better sources here tend to go with the 1821 date. Hog Farm Talk 03:08, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- May 22, 1820. Eicher, John H., and David J. Eicher, Civil War High Commands. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 2001. ISBN 978-0-8047-3641-1. p. 518. Also May 22, 1820. Warner, Ezra J. Generals in Blue: Lives of the Union Commanders. Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 1964. ISBN 978-0-8071-0822-2. p. 488. Donner60 (talk) 03:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- I added Eicher(s) as an additional source for the 1820 birth year and Warner for other statements in the article. I'm leaning toward leaving the birth year as either 1820 or 1821 due to the discrepancies in the references, but will take your recommendation. Dwkaminski (talk) 13:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- May 22, 1820. Eicher, John H., and David J. Eicher, Civil War High Commands. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 2001. ISBN 978-0-8047-3641-1. p. 518. Also May 22, 1820. Warner, Ezra J. Generals in Blue: Lives of the Union Commanders. Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 1964. ISBN 978-0-8071-0822-2. p. 488. Donner60 (talk) 03:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Donner60 - Does Civil War High Commands have an entry for Sully? That source is usually fairly authoritative. It looks to me like the better sources here tend to go with the 1821 date. Hog Farm Talk 03:08, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- The American Heritage source also indicates when he entered West Point - would that be useful to note in the article?
- added 1837 as year that he entered USMA Dwkaminski (talk) 11:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- "and the Mexican-American War where he fought in the Siege of Veracruz" - indicate the year that this occurred
- added 1847 as year he fought in the siege of Veracruz Dwkaminski (talk) 11:52, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Link the Second Regiment to 2nd Infantry Regiment (United States)
- Link the First Minnesota Regiment to 1st Minnesota Infantry Regiment
- " He commanded US troops out of Fort Leavenworth and occupied the city of St. Joseph, Missouri, declaring martial law. Violent secessionist uprisings in the city during the early Civil War prompted Sully's occupation" - the source does not mention Fort Leavenworth by name and does not mention martial law
- Modified to more closely match the reference Dwkaminski (talk) 12:09, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- ""Alfred Sully biography". Archived from the original on 2013-07-07. Retrieved 2013-07-07." - this probably isn't a reliable source
- I removed the Alfred Sully biography ref and replaced with www.askART - modified language to that which is supported by reference Dwkaminski (talk) 14:09, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- "admin. "Homepage". Episcopal News Service. Retrieved 2022-09-16." - this is a link to the homepage of a website; the content this is supporting isn't on the homepage and can't be easily located
- removed Episcopal News Service reference and added Deloria pp 44-45 to support content Dwkaminski (talk) 12:54, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- " "Dakota Expeditions of Sibley and Sully". www.encyclopedia.com. Encyclopedia.com. Retrieved 8 July 2024." - what makes this a reliable source?
- It meets the requirements of WP:RS which allows for encyclopedias as reliable sources. encyclopedia.com lists in it's bibliography Clodfelter as a source. I would use that reference but the specific pages are not included in the google books limited view for Clodfelter. Dwkaminski (talk) 14:31, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Our website on this website suggests that it's published by Gale so I'm willing to accept this for GA but a better source would be expected for anything higher. Hog Farm Talk 20:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Dwkaminski and Hog Farm: Pope's plan is described in Hatch, Thom. The Blue, The Gray, & The Red: Indian Campaigns of the Civil War. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2003. ISBN 978-0-8117-0016-0 at pages 108-109. It does not mention Sully's headquarters at Sioux City, Iowa. Note that Sully was delayed by low water on the Missouri River and could not transport his supplies until later. By that time Sibley's actions were finished and he had returned to base. The battle casualties for the Battle of Whitestone Hill shown in this article are inconsistent with Hatch, p. 114: "At daybreak, Sully entered the village and took possession of 156 prisoners, 124 women and children and 32 warriors. His troopers had killed an estimated 200 Sioux, while the army had suffered 22 dead and 38 wounded." The article on the Battle of Whitestone Hill states "Sully's casualties were approximately 22 killed and 38 wounded. No reliable estimates of Sioux killed and wounded are available, with estimates ranging from 100 to 300, including women and children. Captured Sioux totaled 156, including 32 adult males." The citation which appears to support this statement, one sentence later, times out when clicked. Another source at the end of the paragraph, unavailable to me, may or may not have this information. In Cozzens, Peter. General John Pope: A Life for the Nation. Urbana, IL: University of Illinois Press, 2000. ISBN 978-0-252-02363-7 at page 233: "...the supply shortage compelled Sibley to call off the chase. An August 1, he began the return march to Minnesota....he [Pope] prodded Sully on August 5. Page 234: "Instead, stung into action by Pope's censure, he [Sully] marched from Fort Pierre on August 13." Page 234: "On September 3....In a short fight, Sully killed 150 Indians and took 156 prisoners, burned tons of buffalo meat and supplies, and burned the hostile camp. Safisfied the survivors had scattered, Sully returned to Fort Pierre three days afterward." As Josephy in the next citation notes at page 144, Sully's delay much irritated Pope who thought a cavalry force should have been able to move and he blamed Sully for the failure of the two armies to meet and trap the Sioux. Finally, in Josephy, Jr., Alvin M., The Civil War in the American West. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1991. ISBN 978-0-394-56482-1 pages 145-146: "At a cost of 22 dead and 38 wounded, Sully's troopers had killed more than 200 Sioux. The soldiers destroyed all of the Indians' posessions, including [146] their lodges and more than 400,000 pounds of dried buffalo meat." Donner60 (talk) 05:48, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Added Hatch as a reference in the article but cannot view Cozzens so will add in further reading. Much of the detail you add above may be appropriate for Battle of Whitestone Hill page but I'll leave off the Alfred Sully page. I'm not so concerned about being different from the Battle of Whitestone Hill page in terms of casualties since the references there are not as robust. Dwkaminski (talk) 13:26, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Dwkaminski and Hog Farm: Pope's plan is described in Hatch, Thom. The Blue, The Gray, & The Red: Indian Campaigns of the Civil War. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2003. ISBN 978-0-8117-0016-0 at pages 108-109. It does not mention Sully's headquarters at Sioux City, Iowa. Note that Sully was delayed by low water on the Missouri River and could not transport his supplies until later. By that time Sibley's actions were finished and he had returned to base. The battle casualties for the Battle of Whitestone Hill shown in this article are inconsistent with Hatch, p. 114: "At daybreak, Sully entered the village and took possession of 156 prisoners, 124 women and children and 32 warriors. His troopers had killed an estimated 200 Sioux, while the army had suffered 22 dead and 38 wounded." The article on the Battle of Whitestone Hill states "Sully's casualties were approximately 22 killed and 38 wounded. No reliable estimates of Sioux killed and wounded are available, with estimates ranging from 100 to 300, including women and children. Captured Sioux totaled 156, including 32 adult males." The citation which appears to support this statement, one sentence later, times out when clicked. Another source at the end of the paragraph, unavailable to me, may or may not have this information. In Cozzens, Peter. General John Pope: A Life for the Nation. Urbana, IL: University of Illinois Press, 2000. ISBN 978-0-252-02363-7 at page 233: "...the supply shortage compelled Sibley to call off the chase. An August 1, he began the return march to Minnesota....he [Pope] prodded Sully on August 5. Page 234: "Instead, stung into action by Pope's censure, he [Sully] marched from Fort Pierre on August 13." Page 234: "On September 3....In a short fight, Sully killed 150 Indians and took 156 prisoners, burned tons of buffalo meat and supplies, and burned the hostile camp. Safisfied the survivors had scattered, Sully returned to Fort Pierre three days afterward." As Josephy in the next citation notes at page 144, Sully's delay much irritated Pope who thought a cavalry force should have been able to move and he blamed Sully for the failure of the two armies to meet and trap the Sioux. Finally, in Josephy, Jr., Alvin M., The Civil War in the American West. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1991. ISBN 978-0-394-56482-1 pages 145-146: "At a cost of 22 dead and 38 wounded, Sully's troopers had killed more than 200 Sioux. The soldiers destroyed all of the Indians' posessions, including [146] their lodges and more than 400,000 pounds of dried buffalo meat." Donner60 (talk) 05:48, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- " Alexander, Kathy. "Fort Rice, North Dakota". www.legendsofamerica.com. Legends of America. Retrieved 4 July 2024." - what makes this a reliable source?
- I have no reason to doubt it as a reliable source - however, I replaced it with ndstudies.gov ref. Dwkaminski (talk) 11:39, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
More to follow later. Hog Farm Talk 00:26, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- I believe I addressed your initial comments. Let me know if you have any additional comments. Thanks! Dwkaminski (talk) 12:04, 25 July 2024 (UTC)