Talk:Alfred Sully

Actor??

The article synopsis includes the line "He was also a noted actor, having acted in the very same play that Lincoln went to see shortly before his death." The citation includes no mention that Alfred Sully was an actor. What is the citation for this? An hasty search of references do not include this claim. KVJackson (talk) 17:34, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Added a citation needed span tag to the questioned statement about acting. After sufficient review time, absent additional credible information, this sentence should be removed. KVJackson (talk) 19:02, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Upon further review, noted that Deah1919 (currently permanently blocked for vandalism) made the revision as of 23:28, 18 June 2014. Have reverted back to the previous language validated by reference citations, that Alfred Sully was a noted painter. It is somewhat disappointing that this apparent act of page vandalism was in place for over six years. KVJackson (talk) 20:20, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Death??

The article says nothing at all about the circumstances of his death -- a glaring deficiency, I'd say. Cgingold (talk) 15:21, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Question

"I don't believe Alfred Sully could have married a daughte of Saswe, beause his daughter, Mary married Phillip Deloria, making her a daughter in law to Saswe. I would like to talk to who ever posted this and learn the soucre of his info. Thanks"

This was posted by unknown user in the article, but it is a question of some interest V. Joe (talk) 14:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm a direct descendent of Alfred Sully. He did not marry the daughter of Saswe, but he did "have relations" with her and fathered Mary Sully with her. According to the California Historical Society, Sully's second wife was Sophia Webster:

Sully’s marriage in 1866 to Sophia, with whom he had two children, was preceded by a relationship he entered into before the Civil War with a young Yankton Sioux woman he met while at Fort Pierre in what is now South Dakota. In 1858, she gave birth to a daughter named Mary Sully... [He] Langdon Sully identified a Yankton Sioux pictured in a group portrait painted near Fort Pierre by Sully—a capable artist if not an accomplished one like his father—as Pehandutawin, the woman who bore Sully’s child. Langdon Sully did not mention Alfred’s relationship with her in his biography, but reproduced that painting and hinted at its significance by noting: “Alfred’s second wife, Sophia, was aware of the relationships between soldiers and Indians of the Sioux tribes on the frontier. She refused to let her husband hang the picture of the Indian girls in her house.

Isara (talk) 21:30, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

References

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Alfred Sully/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Dwkaminski (talk · contribs) 13:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 14:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

• "Sully was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on May 22, 1880" - the year is obviously a typo here

• fixed to 1820 Dwkaminski (talk) 11:43, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

• Several of the references provide an 1821 date of birth, and the source that discusses his painting at age 13 says he was 13 in 1834? Hog Farm _Talk 13:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

• It is unclear which year he was born in. I listed both as possible. Dwkaminski (talk) 11:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• Donner60 - Does Civil War High Commands have an entry for Sully? That source is usually fairly authoritative. It looks to me like the better sources here tend to go with the 1821 date. Hog Farm _Talk 03:08, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

  May 22, 1820. Eicher, John H., and David J. Eicher, Civil War High Commands. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 2001. ISBN 978-0-8047-3641-1. p. 518. Also May 22, 1820. Warner, Ezra J. Generals in Blue: Lives of the Union Commanders. Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 1964. ISBN 978-0-8071-0822-2. p. 488. Donner60 (talk) 03:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

  I added Eicher(s) as an additional source for the 1820 birth year and Warner for other statements in the article. I'm leaning toward leaving the birth year as either 1820 or 1821 due to the discrepancies in the references, but will take your recommendation. Dwkaminski (talk) 13:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

• The American Heritage source also indicates when he entered West Point - would that be useful to note in the article?

• added 1837 as year that he entered USMA Dwkaminski (talk) 11:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

• "and the Mexican-American War where he fought in the Siege of Veracruz" - indicate the year that this occurred

• added 1847 as year he fought in the siege of Veracruz Dwkaminski (talk) 11:52, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

• Link the Second Regiment to 2nd Infantry Regiment (United States)

• Done Dwkaminski (talk) 11:54, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

• Link the First Minnesota Regiment to 1st Minnesota Infantry Regiment

• Done Dwkaminski (talk) 12:01, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

• " He commanded US troops out of Fort Leavenworth and occupied the city of St. Joseph, Missouri, declaring martial law. Violent secessionist uprisings in the city during the early Civil War prompted Sully's occupation" - the source does not mention Fort Leavenworth by name and does not mention martial law

• Modified to more closely match the reference Dwkaminski (talk) 12:09, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

• ""Alfred Sully biography". Archived from the original on 2013-07-07. Retrieved 2013-07-07." - this probably isn't a reliable source

• I removed the Alfred Sully biography ref and replaced with www.askART - modified language to that which is supported by reference Dwkaminski (talk) 14:09, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

• "admin. "Homepage". Episcopal News Service. Retrieved 2022-09-16." - this is a link to the homepage of a website; the content this is supporting isn't on the homepage and can't be easily located

• removed Episcopal News Service reference and added Deloria pp 44-45 to support content Dwkaminski (talk) 12:54, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

• " "Dakota Expeditions of Sibley and Sully". www.encyclopedia.com. Encyclopedia.com. Retrieved 8 July 2024." - what makes this a reliable source?

• It meets the requirements of WP:RS which allows for encyclopedias as reliable sources. encyclopedia.com lists in it's bibliography Clodfelter as a source. I would use that reference but the specific pages are not included in the google books limited view for Clodfelter. Dwkaminski (talk) 14:31, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

• Our website on this website suggests that it's published by Gale so I'm willing to accept this for GA but a better source would be expected for anything higher. Hog Farm _Talk 20:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

• @Dwkaminski and Hog Farm: Pope's plan is described in Hatch, Thom. The Blue, The Gray, & The Red: Indian Campaigns of the Civil War. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2003. ISBN 978-0-8117-0016-0 at pages 108-109. It does not mention Sully's headquarters at Sioux City, Iowa. Note that Sully was delayed by low water on the Missouri River and could not transport his supplies until later. By that time Sibley's actions were finished and he had returned to base. The battle casualties for the Battle of Whitestone Hill shown in this article are inconsistent with Hatch, p. 114: "At daybreak, Sully entered the village and took possession of 156 prisoners, 124 women and children and 32 warriors. His troopers had killed an estimated 200 Sioux, while the army had suffered 22 dead and 38 wounded." The article on the Battle of Whitestone Hill states "Sully's casualties were approximately 22 killed and 38 wounded. No reliable estimates of Sioux killed and wounded are available, with estimates ranging from 100 to 300, including women and children. Captured Sioux totaled 156, including 32 adult males." The citation which appears to support this statement, one sentence later, times out when clicked. Another source at the end of the paragraph, unavailable to me, may or may not have this information. In Cozzens, Peter. General John Pope: A Life for the Nation. Urbana, IL: University of Illinois Press, 2000. ISBN 978-0-252-02363-7 at page 233: "...the supply shortage compelled Sibley to call off the chase. An August 1, he began the return march to Minnesota....he [Pope] prodded Sully on August 5. Page 234: "Instead, stung into action by Pope's censure, he [Sully] marched from Fort Pierre on August 13." Page 234: "On September 3....In a short fight, Sully killed 150 Indians and took 156 prisoners, burned tons of buffalo meat and supplies, and burned the hostile camp. Safisfied the survivors had scattered, Sully returned to Fort Pierre three days afterward." As Josephy in the next citation notes at page 144, Sully's delay much irritated Pope who thought a cavalry force should have been able to move and he blamed Sully for the failure of the two armies to meet and trap the Sioux. Finally, in Josephy, Jr., Alvin M., The Civil War in the American West. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1991. ISBN 978-0-394-56482-1 pages 145-146: "At a cost of 22 dead and 38 wounded, Sully's troopers had killed more than 200 Sioux. The soldiers destroyed all of the Indians' posessions, including [146] their lodges and more than 400,000 pounds of dried buffalo meat." Donner60 (talk) 05:48, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

  Added Hatch as a reference in the article but cannot view the pages that discuss the casualties at Battle of Whitestone Hill. Much of the detail you add above may be appropriate for the Battle of Whitestone Hill page but I'll leave off the Alfred Sully page. Dwkaminski (talk) 13:26, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

• " Alexander, Kathy. "Fort Rice, North Dakota". www.legendsofamerica.com. Legends of America. Retrieved 4 July 2024." - what makes this a reliable source?

• I have no reason to doubt it as a reliable source - however, I replaced it with ndstudies.gov ref. Dwkaminski (talk) 11:39, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

More to follow later. Hog Farm _Talk 00:26, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I believe I addressed your initial comments. Let me know if you have any additional comments. Thanks! Dwkaminski (talk) 12:04, 25 July 2024 (UTC)