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Talk:Albanians/Archive 7

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Latest comment: 10 months ago by 188.172.110.100 in topic Religion
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Independence proclaimed/gained/recognized

Latest comment: 6 years ago14 comments7 people in discussion

I assume some detail will be helpfull in this case, since proclamation and recognition have not occur the same year.Alexikoua (talk) 10:30, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

1912 it was declared, in 1913 it was recognised. No independent source recognises a sovereign state from 1912 consisting of all lands claimed by Albanian Assembly. At end of 1912, Tirana was in Ottoman Empire. Period. --Edin Balgarin (talk) 16:26, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

PS. The appointment of an independent Albania occurred after Treaty of London (1913) and not Bucharest. The Bucharest treaty involved the Second Balkan War and neither Albania nor Albanians as a nation played any part in this conflict/treaty. --Edin Balgarin (talk) 16:35, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

@Edin Balgarin: while it is entirely legitimate that in Bulgaria you may have a different understanding of what "independence" means, in English it means "you are not ruled by an external government". Under the operational definition you are using, we would have to understand Taiwan to "not be independent" due to non-recognition despite the fact that it has ruled itself for seven decades. The independence of the United States, for another example, is understood to have begun in 1776 with the Declaration of Independence -- not when it achieved global recognition quite a bit later.--Calthinus (talk) 18:15, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Your statement is wrong from start to finish. Independence means the same in Bulgaria as it does in the UK which incidentally is where I now live. By your definition, every rebel state is "independent" but independence is understood as meaning being internationally recognised. We consider our modern independence period as having begun in 1878 and to some extent it was de facto though not per the borders we sought (when we fought Serbia in 1885-86 it was as a Bulgarian single unit). Whatever I think is irrelevant because Bulgarian independence officially began in 1908 for the current period. Accordig to your theory South Ossetia is independent since it is not ruled by foreigners and for a time Islamic State was (and continues to be in pockets) independent. Bottom line, the state the Albanian representatives declared was every bit "foreign" for non-Albanians so your observation here fails NPOV automatically. In 1912 Albania declared independence and that is all. --Edin Balgarin (talk) 07:03, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Independence date is the date when the independence is declared (so from the perspective of the state which is declaring it). Recognition is done by each and every country separately, so it doesn't have a fixed date. Anyways, recognition is just what the word says "recognition" of something that already happened. 141.136.229.181 (talk) 18:43, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Lede sentence is meant to convey living situation of Albanians in summarized form, as article is about Albanians, not Albania itself. Since editors feel strongly about "declared" and "recognized" the independence sentence now includes the date 1912-1913 combining both. Its becoming absurd and the lede is not the article itself nor meant to morph into a article of its own but summarizing key points.Resnjari (talk) 07:11, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
I agree.141.136.247.157 (talk) 12:15, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
I am not sure about what control over territory you claim? Most of Albania was under Drač County till April 1913, see Serbia in the Balkan Wars. FkpCascais (talk) 13:11, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
It was unrecognised by the international community who viewed the transition of territorial units as being from the Ottoman state to an Albanian one.Resnjari (talk) 13:14, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Yes, but there goes down the road the definition Calthinus defended about control, actually all of Albania was under foreign control way into mid-1913. FkpCascais (talk) 13:17, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Correction. Most of Albania was under foreign control, not all. The area of Vlore and Berat was not occupied by foreign armies and their Ottoman civil administrations submitted themselves to the self declared Vlora government.Resnjari (talk) 13:39, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Correction. There was no "Albania" in 1912 except for what its own supporters proclaimed. They laid claim to Kosovo and Central Macedonia. The fact was that while Albanians sought a major ethnic state, Greece, Serbia & Montenegro were bidding for the same lands. When Albania came onto the map it was 1913. So on the one hand Albania controlled nothing other than Berat and Vlora and that fact that the Ottomans became subjugated does not alter the fact that until 1913, all of the Kosovo Vilayet, and Vlora as well, were part of the Ottoman Empire and internationally recognised as such. --Edin Balgarin (talk) 07:07, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
I agree that there a was a self-proclaimed government that controlled a tiny part of the modern state and wasn't recognized by anyone in 1912. Independence was de jure recognized in 1913 and the borders were delineated later in 1914 (de facto control was achieved post-WWI).Alexikoua (talk) 07:58, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Who are you down below and what are your credits and your authority to make modification on albanian history? 79.106.126.166 (talk) 13:14, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

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Other meanings of term "Albanian(s)"

Latest comment: 6 years ago10 comments4 people in discussion

In the article there is already a paragraph about the meaning of "Albanian" in an early medieval source. There are also scholarly comments about the same term in late mideaval sources. Here is one:

Albanologist Oliver Schmitt explains that in the sources of that period the term "Albanian" denotes one of the following: a) A speaker of Albanian language. b) A person from (geographical) Albania, independently of his/her language. c) A person from rural area.<Schmitt Oliver Jens, "(2009), Skanderbeg: Der neue Alexander auf dem Balkan", p. 354>

This was deleted from the Wictionary on the grounds that "english was not used in the Balkans that time".

Another historical meaning of "Albanian" is "the people from Albania of Caucasus". Here is one source: Wolfgang Schulze (Ludwig-Maximilians-University of Munich), "Caucasian Albanian and the Question of Language and Ethnicity", 2017, DOI: 10.13140/RG.2.2.18498.17602. One may argue of course that english was not spoken in ancient times Caucasus.--Skylax30 (talk) 11:36, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

This seems quite valid information. However, it is a mistery for me the excuse of English not being used at that time there. Nowadays isn´t used either, only as foreign language, just as probably at Medieval times as well by the intellectuals which knew English. FkpCascais (talk) 11:48, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Quit pushing fringe theories. There was a kingdom called Albania in Latin (< Armenian, also known as Aghvank). There is no evidence they referred to themselves as Albanians, and it is as irrelevant here as discussion of hte Iberian peninsula is on Georgians and vice versa merely because they also had the same name at one point. It is also irrelevant of the fact that ethnic Scots are refered to as Albani in Latin. --Calthinus (talk) 18:34, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
I second Calthinus. This article is not an archive of everything written in books. Only encyclopedic material that suits the context of this article is of value here. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:37, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Sine there are many academic articles about Albania and Albanians of Caucasus, it is encyclopedic by definition. It probably deserves a separate article. I suppose the Balkan Albanians do not have the copyright of the term.--Skylax30 (talk) 19:19, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

It probably deserves a separate article. I suppose the Balkan Albanians do not have the copyright of the term. Yeah, after that the creation of such as article would need to be discussed at the proper venues and the result could be a topic ban for you, as it would not be the first time you create articles to avoid reaching consensus with other editors. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:23, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, actually there is an article about it. Caucasian Albania. Of course, you can request a quick deletion and a topic ban for all who contributed.--Skylax30 (talk) 19:28, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Caucasian Albania is a very good article in line with Wiki policies. The imaginary article you mentioned above would be a reason for sanctions. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:58, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
I can only grin -- the idea that entire nations are even capable of having "copyright" over something is preposterous :). Reminds me of a great conversation I had recently on the talk page of Ktrimi991 :) :) :).--Calthinus (talk) 03:09, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
@Calthinus: Welcome to Disneyland of Europe :-) Ktrimi991 (talk) 05:44, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Albanians settlers on Cyprus

Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Hello people, in a turkish text I have learnt that it is known more than 20 Albanian villages near Poli and Cape Arnauti on Cyprus; Bir bakıma 1890-1920 yılları arasında meydan okuyan Rumları sindirmede başrol oynamışlar ve Rumları durdurmuşlardır. Arnavutlar’ın en fazla oldukları bölge Arnavutluk burnudur. Burası Kıbrıs’ın en ucu olan Baf bölgesidir. Baf’a bağlı yaklaşık 20 köye Osmanlılar tarafından Arnavutluk’tan yerleştirildiler. İkinci kalabalık oldukları yer ise Leymosun’daki Arnavut mahallesidir. Yine Poli’nin çevresindeki 17-18 köy de Arnavut asıllıdır. Mesarga’da Kufes köyünde Arnavut soyadlı aileler vardır. Folklor araştırması yaparken şu helence kısa cümleyi kullandıklarını tespit ettim: “Aroidez Alvanayes: Bizim kökenim iz Arnavut’tur.” Sonradan Arnavutların türkleştiğini görüyoruz. Ben Arnavutları nerede görürsem göreyim yüz yapısı ile dişlerinden tanırım, onların dişleri birbirine binilidir.Manaviko (talk) 00:50, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

hello, you got other sources?--Lorik17 (talk) 20:38, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

ANY PROBLEM?

Latest comment: 6 years ago7 comments4 people in discussion

Hello guys, (@Alexikoua) reverses all edits without correct statements (which in my opinion: my changings and addings do not break any rules and do not represent wrong informations).... dont get it whats wrong on my recent edits i mean im trying to improve this article which is since its formation in a very weak state.--Lorik17 (talk) 18:20, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Whats for example wrong on inserting a picture on the infobox? or in this part: (Diverse religions have long coexisted throughout the history among the Albanians and therefore they are characteristically known to be highly tolerant towards different religions. Today, most of the Albanians consider religious tolerance as a fundamental value, tradition and part of their culture.

In medieval times, Christianity was traditionally the predominant religion of the Albanians before the arrival of Islam. As consequence of the long Ottoman rule, Islam is nowadays the largest religion of the Albanians followed up by Christianity however, most of them consider religion to be unessential in their daily lives.) or this:

(The history of the Albanian diaspora is centuries old and was established during the Middle Ages initially in Southern Europe and later on across the Earth. Between the 11th and 18th centuries, considerable numbers of Albanians migrated from the Western Balkans to escape either various social, economic and political conditions or the conquest of the Ottoman Empire.

One population, who constituted the Arvanites, settled in the Peloponnese and Rumelia who starting from the 16th century and though mainly during the 19th century onwards assimilated and today self identify as Greeks. Another population, who emerged as the Arbëreshës, settled in Southern Italy and constitutes the oldest continuous Albanian diaspora who simultaneously produced influential and many prominent figures.nA smaller populations such as the Arbanasis are located in Dalmatia while scattered communities are to be found across Southern Ukraine.)

Your edits are unsourced, and WP:PEACOCK ("are characteristically known to be highly tolerant towards different religions", "across the Earth"). This is mean to be an encyclopedia. Also, please don't SHOUT using ALLCAPS. Khirurg (talk) 19:44, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Also, what's up with "Arrival of the Arbereshes in Italy with their papas and icons"? See WP:CIR. Khirurg (talk) 19:47, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
The picture should go, I fail to see a historical value. Was this created by the uploader?Alexikoua (talk) 14:27, 13 November 2018 (UTC)


The same old POV "we are all Albanians"

The first lines of every article are supposed to make clear what the article is about. Here we have:

The Albanians (Albanian: Shqiptarët) are a nation and an ethnic group in Southern Europe sharing a common Albanian ancestry, culture, history and language ...

It means that the article is about ethnic Albanians, i.e. after 19th c. It is NOT about everybody who was living in the geographic Albania or came from Albania some centuries ago, or spoke Albanian (and other languages). It is clear from other sources (which are constantly deleted by the same persons, here and in the Wikidictionary) that the term "Albanian" had various meanings in the past, and did not necessarily meaned "ethnic Albanian". I added one more source on that. At the same time, it is clear that the Greek Albanian-and-Greek bilingual "Arvanites" do not have or had any Albanian national identity, never called themselves "Albanians", and are not considered ethnic Albanians by anybody. If they came from the geographic Albania, say, 5 centuries ago, does not make them "Albanians" and they are not within the scope of the article. If you insist, we can modify the LEAD in order to include all those who live or came sometime from the geographic Albania (which does not coincide with the state of Albania), e.g. gypsies, vlachs, serbians, greeks etc. Any attempt of anachronistic creation of ethnic Albanians in the Balkans befor the 19th century is a blatant nationalistic propaganda, it missinforms the reader of WP, is a SYNTH, and will be countered accordingly.--Skylax30 (talk) 13:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

You're statement makes no sense, the article deals with the Albanians as an ethnic group, whether before or after the 19th century so you are totally wrong and its not to be considered as "a blatant nationalistic propaganda", please be objective ... (the ancestors of the Arvanites were ethnic Albanians setlling to the territory of modern Greece, no matter from where they came from (modern day Montenegro, modern day Albania or modern day India, modern day Alaska or wherever) so they are for sure to be mentioned in this article because they were Albanian settlers no matter how they were known as Arberore or Arbereshes or Shqiptars or Albanians! ------ I also noticed that you have been blocked many times so please be careful with your unnecessary statements and leave the nationalistic background aside.--Lorik17 (talk) 14:46, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
There were no "ethnic" Albanians before the Albanian ethnogenesis. There sources explaining what "Albanians" meaned before 19th century, and this will be in the WP, no matter how much you erase it.

Btw, I don't accept threats for blocking, from you or the rest.--Skylax30 (talk) 12:22, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

RELIGION

Latest comment: 5 years ago28 comments6 people in discussion

Hello guys, I am currently trying to renew and improve the Religion section and i noticed that this part ...

("According to 2011 census, 58.79% of Albania adheres to Islam, making it the largest religion in the country. The majority of Albanian Muslims are Sunni with a Bektashi minority. Christianity is practiced by 16.99% of the population, making it the second largest religion in the country. The remaining population is either irreligious or belongs to other religious groups."

The results of the 2011 census, however, have been criticized as questionable on a number of grounds, and have been said to drastically underrepresent the number of Orthodox, Bektashi and irreligious Albanians, with problems including whole communities reporting that they had not been contacted, workers filling out questions without even asking the respondents and a drastic difference between the final results and the preliminary results with regard to religion (which showed over 70% declining to answer the question about religion).")

... only deals with the 2011 census in Albania which inclusively contains, not only the religions of Albanians, but also of the religion of other ethnic groups in Albania ... i think this part is not suitable for this article and should be removed ... so what do you think?--Lorik17 (talk) 15:53, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Coorect, this figure concerns the population of the country regardless of ethnic groups.Alexikoua (talk) 22:00, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Albanian speaking Muslims collectively number in the Balkans between 4,355,000 (Merdjanova, 2016, p.7: [1]) to close to 4.5 million (Merdjanova, 2018, p.252: [2]). Albanians are the biggest Muslim ethnic group in the Balkans (if one excludes Turkey as being in the Balkans, as per Merdjanova). In Albania Muslims number 2,300,000 and are the dominant religious group of the country (Merdjanova, 2016, p.7: [3]). Hope it helps.Resnjari (talk) 22:15, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Religious identity in Albania can be very difficult to capture (you have 'half-Christian half-Muslims', "deists", religion-meaning-grandpa's-last-name and so forth, how is it not going to be a headache for census pigeonholers) and that census had widely reported and condemned issues. Hopefully the next one will be better. I think the best way to go for now is just to wait til then, and note that the census was controversial-- which I believe we already do. --Calthinus (talk) 23:37, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Yeah i know. People keep saying the census is an issue. So then its scholarship. Merdjanova tackles the matter of Alb Muslims in the Balkans, but like you say that identification is complex and varied. Its not the best solution but maybe the Alb census stays for now until a new one happens in a few years time (hopefully done without issues). Kosovo's, Macedonia's, Montenegro's census numbers on Alb populations and their religious communities are accurate and have not been contested apart from fringe nationalist elements.Resnjari (talk) 00:03, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
People keep saying it is because it is. At this point it's not which group has protested, it's which group hasn't protested and I honestly can't think of any. Um, maybe people who don't know their religion and are questioning their ethnicity?? Re Merdjanova, who counts as a Muslim for her (Muslim father? Or actual believer of Islam? Or a practitioner?), and where are her numbers coming from. Per her calculation Muslims would be 82% of the country, which aside from negating the Sunni/Bektashi divide would necessitate the near total inexistence of atheists (at least 2% of the population per declared on the census but note many atheists were declared as Muslims often against their will), agnostics, unaffiliated (regions with most unaffiliated -- Gramsh, Vlora, etc -- are highly correlated with numbers of atheists as per the admittedly flawed census), and deists (5%+ per census) in the country. This figure is also suspiciously similar to the Pew one from much earlier.--Calthinus (talk) 13:30, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
Its hard (especially in relation to Albania). I disagree though on a few points with you. Atheists and deists in Albania have identified with being Muslim in terms of a cultural identity. The absences in the census of non-affiliation was in large part to a public relations campaign of the time by the nationalist Red and Black alliance that basically said to Albanians, if you declare a religious identity your not a patriot with implications of traitor. Most if not all of the areas that have non-affiliation in the census are areas that have been known to have compact Muslim populations and most are rural. Atheism in Albania is mainly an urban phenomenon, even with all the communist era indoctrination over the whole population. Islam for Kosovo Albanians and especially those in Macedonia remains part of their identity even if practise is no longer common and apathetic. I cite Merdjanova because she is an RS scholar and her works are most recent. But i do think that probably for now the current stable version on religion numbers remains in the article due to difficulties in outlining those extra intricacies.Resnjari (talk) 13:45, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
Resnja I beg to differ. The Red and Black alliance was a small organisation that did not alter the results much. Yes they had some media attention, but their real impact was very small, as their election results showed (0.6%). It was the census itself that was controvertial, with even figures from the current party in power (the Socialist Party) being opposed to it. As for the "cultural Muslim" (you totally ignored the other groups here) that is very much overblown and you assuming way too much on that topic. Yes many irreligious people have identified as Muslims/Christians, but that is mainly because of lack of information on the topics of religious identities and not because of a strong religious identity. But you can't claim that this is somehow the rule for all of most irreligious people in Albania, since the irreligious identity is very strong. You must understand some more of the Albanian context here, polls show that Albanians from Albania lack even simple knowledge about religion and don't practice even basic Islamic rituals. Something of note is the majority of Albanian people for Muslim background according to INSTAT (the goverment statistics agency) did not practice circumcision, which is the most basic part of beloning to Islam. As you can see this "Islamic/Christian identity" is for most very weak at best, and as public debates in Albania show, it is declining and no longer relevant. Saying that they are somehow still "Muslim" is like saying that "Albanians are Christians" because they come from a Christian descent. It does not make any sense, so why should it make sense for "Cultural Muslims"? There are many families in Albania that have been irreligious or nominally mixed-religious for many generations now. Those terms "cultural Muslims/Christians" that you give so much importance do not mean anything to them. Also atheism in Albania is not just a "urban phenomen", actually historically it has a quite strong regional component, with the south being a lot less religious and having had more "interreligious marriages", particulary those regions that were historically Bektashi. These things have been noticed by outside observers and particulary for those who live in Albania. [1] [2] [3]
The Red and Black alliance now is a small organisation. Back when the census was being undertaken Kreshnik Spahiu and his group caught the public's attention with his rants about patriotism i.e that any declarations of ethnicity and or religious affiliation in the census amounted to being unpatriotic or even traitorous, as 'the religion of the Albanians is Albanianism'. The organisation's influence at the time was prominent among society. The idea that religion somehow has little to no influence in post communist Albania does not stack up with reality. Albania reflects wider trends in Europe of people either becoming apathetic to religion or affiliation to it in cultural terms. However that as not meant that Europe (outside of the Balkans) is not seen by both people within or outside as 'Christian'. Quite the contrary. Same with Albania, Islam is a component of Albania even if people hardly know its tenets and only associate or declare themselves as such due to parents or grandparents having been Muslim. I traversed Albania last year, religion is strong, especially among the Orthodox and Catholics who are very adamant regarding their faith and regard the small number of atheists in the country as mainly having come from the Muslim (Sunni and Bektashi) group. Islam is fast catching up. The census numbers work, otherwise if that goes we replace those numbers with RS like Merdjanova. The page is about Albanians and readers have a right to know about the religious aspects of Albanians.Resnjari (talk) 16:23, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
It is now and it was then. They caught the public attention but they did their rhetoric simply echoed what was being said by Albanians in general, it is not that they caused the results. Their bad election results just 2 years after the census show that. I am not sure based on what are you saying that it is not true that religion in Albania has little importance. I mean the "Religion in Albania" article is fileld with sources that say that religion has little influence in Albania. That Islam is a component of Albania is something to be debated as in what that means, but we are talking about religion and religious beliefs here. That might have been your experience, but having lived in Albania most of my live I can say that I found it not to be the case at all, just as the studies on the topic of importance of religion have showed, like the latest UNDP study. The Gallup poll from 2016 also showed that the number of "convinced atheists" was 9%, (plus 30% irreligious) which is higher than the number of Orthodox and close to the number of Catholics if the compare them to the figures of the census. On the question of belief in a god itself, 20% did not believe or say they did not know. Which is a far cry from "small number of atheists". As I said, if the census figures are to be retained there needs to be some disclaimers. Vargmali (talk) 10:03, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Polls have their own issues. They have swung widely in Albania's case when they are compared over the years and there is no stability in its results on this issue. The census for all its faults at least is government collected data. Islam not being a component of Albania's identity is often debated by those who do not like it and try to obscure that it exists. You cite the Religion in Albania article and true some sources state that Atheism is bigger in the country (without them explaining if its a urban or rural phenomenon or both), however they still give numbers for Islam as over the 50% mark and interestingly like the SMRE for 2018 (give or take a few percentage points) coincide with the census numbers of Muslims in Albania. The data of SMRE divides data from two periods (1996–2005) and (2006–2015) where Islam remains dominant and the Atheism group has mainly increased due to a decrease in Muslim adherents. Still Islam is the dominant religion of Albanians in Albania and by far remains so in Kosovo and Macedonia.Resnjari (talk) 10:48, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
I have no problem with acknowledging that Islam is part of our history, what I said was being debated how much of an influence it was. However please do not pull the rhetoric about how people who identify as irreligious are "really" Muslim, since it reminds me of Shefqet Krasniqi-Olsi Jazexhi views that reduce Albanian culture solely to Islam. The vast majority of irreligious people from Albania and many Albanian Muslims would find it offensive, since for them Albanian culture is a lot more than just religion. These surveys did not give many atheists deists and so forth the ability to self identify, just because their last names are Islami or Shehu. Numbers matter especially as Albania is part of the OIC and has been linked to the Cairo declaration. You have admitted there are plenty of sources demonstrating atheists exist in large numbers -- likely 9% of the population with more forms of irreligion on top of that. Many are of Christian heritage too. So that 82% Muslim is nonsense and we need different sources. Vargmali (talk) 16:30, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Shefqet Krasniqi is a Kosovar imam, we don't use things published by him in Wikipedia, they are not RS. Olsi Jazexhi is an academic and he has published oversees in RS Western publications about the state of Islam in Albania (in fact he is the main contributor now for over a decade to the Yearbook of Islam series and the entry on Islam in Albania). That said there are people in Albania that claim all those who state in a poll here or there that they are irreligious could not or do not simultaneously claim a cultural Muslim or other cultural religious identity identity is also being disingenuous as not all are purists in their irreligion. They may not beleive in a god, but they do identify with a religion apathetically. Last year while in Albania my experience was that religion is still around and for example the Orthodox churches were definitely filled to the brim in many places i went. Also even for those who are religious, Albanian culture is a separate thing. However unlike the communists and some that claim their legacy, they don't view it as clashing or diminishing their Albanian identity. Far from it, they see it as strengthening their Albanian identity, a view that is found in Kosovo and especially in Macedonia among Albanians. A such RS sources are important for things like this (something i have used extensively in the Islam in Albania page).Resnjari (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Having spend some time reading about the census in Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia I think they should not belong here, or at least need a big disclaimer. The many problems that the Albanians census had were widely reported in the media and beyond, even by the census takers themselves. The Kosovo census is problematic too, since the US Departament of State [4] noted that the non-religious and the other religious communities (like Protestants) were undercounted. From personal experience I actually now that some people had to get into conflict with the census takers in order for them to write their proper religion or lack of, not something that shows the signs of a proper census. The problems of the Macedonian census are more transparent, since it is from 2002 ( compared to the 2011 of the other ones) and it severly undercounted Albanians. It also had literally 0 Albanian Orthodox, even though Albanians have Orthodox MP-s now and public figures. Vargmali (talk) 14:22, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
Re Vargmali -- that should probably be added on the relevant Kosovo demographic pages, actually. I hadn't seen that before, and it's relevant.--Calthinus (talk) 14:32, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
The Macedonian census was accepted by all political sides post 2002. The census has only been challenged by fringe nationalist elements from both the Albanian and Macedonian sides that claim undercounts and overcounts. No need to give air to these elements. In Kosovo the Catholic and Muslim communities have not challenged the census (yes they did express surprise at the results but were not against them). We do have imperfect data on certain matters, it is true, but it does the job for now for at least giving an overview of the Albanian speaking world and their religious affiliations. Otherwise if we remove the census data, then RS numbers like that of Merdjanova should take their place.Resnjari (talk) 14:27, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
The Macedonian census was done just one year after the civil war and as of now is 17 years old. Besides all these, having literally 0 Albanian Orthodox is of great concern.
On the Macedonian census having been done long ago is an issue for displaying current data, but to say that the results of the time were not factual is incorrect. The census was done in peacetime and accepted by all political sides of the time after the 2001 conflict.Resnjari (talk) 10:51, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Like i said we have RS like Merdjanova to account for numbers of Muslim Albanians in the whole of the Balkans if recent data is needed. Best.Resnjari (talk) 10:52, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 
Resnjari Vargmali this is long so I can't comment on most of it but with regard to the urban/rural thing Resnjari mentioned, there is a lot challenging this -- including ironically the census. Some regions had declared atheists more than others (I know personally of numerous cases where atheists were mislabeled) but nevertheless look at where they are. The most atheist region was not anywhere urban, but, rather, Gramsh and the surrounding Tomorrica region. --Calthinus (talk)
There was the Red and Black alliance going around and shaming Albanians into getting them to boycott the census over nationalist and patriotic reasons. Those that declared irreligion or nothing at all is problematic just as people have found that those who declared a religion to also be problematic. For example the area of Tomorrica you mention is a Bektashi stronghold where sufi dervishes and babas are active in the area having many pilgrims come to Mt Tomor itself every year. It being a majority irreligious place, an area that is rural just does not stack up.Resnjari (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Proposal -- regarding Albania in the religion, the census should be replaced with ranges. You can't expect things to add up to 100% in a country where you have Catholic atheists and Bektashi Orthodox Christians. Atheists can go from the census up to the recent RS report of 9% (per WIN-Gallup reported via Turkish media [[4]]). The total irreligious from the census up to the 2018 RS report by the UNDP of 62.7% [[5]]. The Orthodox, I don't have hte source on hand -- maybe Vargmali does -- but they can go from 6% to around 17% (I am not counting hte "internal" Orthodox census of 24% -- this is akin to the 82% for Muslims, it is likely anyone who has ever participated once; UNDP 2018 has them around 13%, I find that believable). On the Catholics, 6% or so to 14% (UNDP -- [[6]]). Bektashis (not all identify as Muslims in Albania or Turkey for that matter) the census 2% is the floor, can go up to 10% or so (8% in UNDP -- [[7]] ) , will have to fetch source -- shrinkage being because atheists are disproportionately of Orthodox and Bektashi extraction due to their Tosk tendencies. Muslims the lower end is 30-something, upper end is 66%, UNDP's 2018 RS survey has Protestants at 1.74% [[8]]. Deists I think are also worth mentioning -- for this best source I have now is still the census but I have seen others. Deists and Atheists should be listed as subsets of "Irreligious", the Christians under "Christian", and Sunni-Bektashi-Alevjan under "Muslim" (no stats on the Alevjanet rn aside from some of them being annoyed with the census). Specific numbers come later when I get a moment, but do you guys agree to the idea to end this impasse Vargmali Resnjari Iaof2017? I think UNDP is useful because it gives specific stats on how many people indeed have both irreligious and religious identities, so there is an RS way to reconcile this --Calthinus (talk) 17:40, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

There is a few things i have to point out here. The page is on Albanians and not Albanian citizens as a whole. Our numbers would have to cover that religious breakdown of people who are Albanians. For example, of Muslims in Albania, the Romani, Slavic Gorani and Gollobordas, small numbers of Bosniaks (in the Shijak area) and Pogoriçani are not Albanians, but the census does not have data on that and has given a number that includes "all" Muslims in Albania. Same would apply to the Orthodox as well in Albania as Aromanians, ethnic Macedonians and Greeks are not Albanian. What number of the Orthodox adherents are actually Orthodox Albanian? For Muslims, Merdjanova is good RS to use as she gives a recent Balkan wide number on all Albanian speaking Muslims. Something similar would do on the Orthodox and Catholics and other forms of Christianity along with Albanians who are atheists and just irreligious.Resnjari (talk) 18:49, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
I agree with the proposal made by Calthinus. I think it is sufficient to address the concerns raised by the editors above. Guys, do not give too much importance to the details. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:53, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Yeah details aside do you support the idea of ranges Resnjari? This seems a good way to find a middle ground representing both the irreligious and religious populations in the percents that are by some definition affiliated or not affiliated, NPOV between different schemata.--Calthinus (talk) 20:01, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm ok with it provided we include the bit from Merdjanova as well.Resnjari (talk) 00:00, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Merdjanova doesn't give percentages. Instead I pulled the Pew global report that she probably got it from as its the same stat.--Calthinus (talk) 21:00, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
So guys, should we keep this or delete it from the section?--Lorik17 (talk) 21:17, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Iaof2017 do you support replacing it with the box that is being made below? --Calthinus (talk) 01:01, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
It has to be replaced wit the box or it should go. In the 2012 European Social Survey compared to the 2011 Census in Kosovo the percentage of the non-religious is 4142% higher, proving the undercount that the US Department of State mentioned in their report. Vargmali (talk) 10:03, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
Calthinus i guess its better to remove the entire part about the 2011 census (see on top) .. but the box can stay, i dont know what other editors think!--Lorik17 (talk) 17:29, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
Calthbox

References

  1. ^ "Faktet/ Feja dhe statistikat fetare në Shqipëri". Opinion.al (in Albanian). 2016-05-28. Retrieved 2019-02-03.
  2. ^ "ANALIZA/ Mustafa Nano: Myslimanët nuk janë shumicë, por edhe sikur të ishin…". balkanweb.com (in Albanian). Retrieved 2019-02-03.
  3. ^ "E BËNË TELEF". Peizazhe të fjalës (in Albanian). 2012-09-02. Retrieved 2019-02-03.
  4. ^ "KOSOVO 2017 INTERNATIONAL RELIGIOUS FREEDOM REPORT" (PDF). p. 2. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)
  5. ^ "Appartenenza e pratica religiosa tra i cittadini stranieri". www.istat.it (in Italian). 2014-10-30. Retrieved 2017-10-22.
  6. ^ a b c d ""Instantanés d'Albaníe, un autre regard sur les Balkans"" (PDF). Wayback.archive.org. 2005. Archived from the original (PDF) on 14 June 2007. Retrieved 20 July 2017. Etudiants en Tourisme et Actions Patrimoniales. (plus de 72 % irréligieux ou non pratiquants. 28 % se répartissent en 21 % musulmans, 6% orthodoxes, 3 % catholiques. ) {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  7. ^ "Table: Muslim Population by Country". Pew Research Center. January 27 2011. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  8. ^ "SMRE". www.smre-data.ch. Retrieved 2019-02-07.
  9. ^ "SMRE". www.smre-data.ch. Retrieved 2019-02-07.
  10. ^ a b c d e f g Institute of Democracy and Mediation (2018). "TOLERANCA FETARE NË SHQIPËRI" (PDF). UNDP. p. 31.
  11. ^ a b c Cite error: The named reference SMRE was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  12. ^ a b Institute of Democracy and Mediation (2018). "TOLERANCA FETARE NË SHQIPËRI" (PDF). UNDP. p. 32.
  13. ^ "Araştırma: Türkiye'nin yüzde 95'i tanrıya inanıyor, yüzde 74'ü 'dindar'". Diken. 2017-04-19. Retrieved 2019-02-05.

12 Million Albanians

Latest comment: 5 years ago10 comments5 people in discussion

No one of provided sources confirms this number. Simple calculation of numbers from different sources made by some editor or editors is WP:OR. Please, provide WP:RS. Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. Jingiby (talk) 19:16, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

You are right, is it okay to remove the "12" million and the tagg?--Lorik17 (talk) 19:22, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Simple calculations are not necessarily OR, per WP:CALC. If multiple RS for Albanian diaspora indeed result with 12 million Albanians, summarizing them is not OR.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:01, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
There are more Albanians in Turkey then there are Albanians in Albania and Kosovo combined (Turkish leaders like Erdogan have stated this publicly many times as have some prominent officials like Ahmet Davitoglu) due to ethnic cleansing, forced displacement and Serbianisation (Slavisation, Yugoslavisation) and Hellenistion campaigns by Serbia and Greece over the past hundred years. The numbers of Albanians are high.Resnjari (talk) 03:50, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Do you want to say that it is necessary to include more than one million of Serbianised and Hellenized Albanians also in the total number of Albanians? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Most of this people are decedents of 19th and early 20th century emigrants. The vast majority of them identify as Turks and even do not speak Albanian. I know that a 2008 report from the Turkish National Security Council estimated that approximately 1.3 million people of Albanian ancestry live in Turkey, and ca. 500,000 recognizing their ancestry. However we know that in a 2011 survey, only 0.2% within Turkey or roughly 150,000 people have identify themselves as Albanian. We calculate here neither decedents, nor people from mixed marriages, but people who really identify themselves as Albanians and are counted as such by reliable sources, as Hakan Şükür for example. Otherwise over 1,000,000 descendants of Bulgarian Muslims living in Turkey must be counted as Bulgarians, but this is nonsense. And last but not least the data for the final figures worldwide must be backed be WP:RS. PS. Striking example would be Erdoğan who is with Georgian forefathers, which migrated after the Russo-Turkish War (1877–78) from Batumi to Rize. I.e he must be counted as part of Muslim Georgians.Jingiby (talk) 04:52, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Jingiby this is a good point but actually a number of Bulgarian Muslims in Turkey are being counted as Bulgarians on Bulgarian people. This is done with other groups such as Scottish people where you realize most Scots in the infobox are in fact in diaspora. One major difference is that the number for Bulgarians on that page is realistic (or even low) and the number for Scot-descended people huge but also realistic given some historical events, the number for Albanians mentions the cited, but completely ridiculous, number of "5 million" (this is likely ridiculous even if we are not talking about Albanian identity but being Albanian-descended in any meaningful way, i.e. more than a quarter Albanian at least not "well one of my great great grandfathers..."); the 1.2 million number for Albanian-descended people in Turkey on the other hand is much more realistic. Well, actually, if we sum together the high estimate claims about # of x(-descended) group in Turkey in infoboxes, we get some interesting results... 20 million Kurds + 7 million "Circassians" (This actually includes many non-Circassians like Lezgins who call themselves Circassians because it's trendy nowadays -- but that doesn't change the number) + 6 million Crimeans + 5 million Arabs + 5 million "Albanians" -- now we already have minorities as the majority of an aggregate 43 million (?!!!) in Turkey, but continuing we get another 2 million Bosniaks + 1 million Georgians if we believe Milliyet + another 5 million or so combining Bulgarians (0.6 mil)+Roma (0.7) +Azerbaijanis (0.8) + Laz (1.6) + Abkhaz (0.6) + Iranians (0.5)... While the Turkish gov't view (minimizing minorities) is not what we should be using, most third party sources also will not have ethnic Turks at something lower than 70% -- let alone being a minority in their homeland with minorities consisting of some over 50 million individuals. --Calthinus (talk) 02:49, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Additionally, Greece -- has a source that is from 2006. Likely outdated given that some return migration occurred in the financial crisis. No idea which figure if any is dependent on that source, I didn't add it. --Calthinus (talk) 03:29, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Manually adding the notable places myself (skipping any less than 10000) I got that, if the Turkey figure is moved to 1.2 mil and the Greece number changed from 0.6 mil to 0.3 mil, we still end up with a high end Albanian estimate of 8.5 million. --Calthinus (talk) 03:34, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
@Jingby to an extent yes. But a few clarifications. A large part of the population of Albanians in Turkey are the descendants of refugees, not migrants who exercised free will in going to Turkey. At the time they went to Turkey because it was the main country that accepted Muslim refugees. Balkan countries, in particular Serbia (later Yugoslavia) and Greece forced Muslim Albanians out and the process is referenced and given in detail in the Albanians in Turkey article. The study that you refer too by the military done in the early 2000s was a incomplete one done by the then Kemalist government and there were controversies around it. Anyway i am not here to discuss that. Unlike the Pomaks etc in Turkey the current Turkish AKP government themselves acknowledge many times publicly (even Erdogan) that there are more Albanians in Turkey than in Albania and Kosovo combined. To claim that somehow it is not the case is to omit that officially the state recognises that as a fact. I will also note that the Turkish government does not make the same claim in reference to other minorities in Turkey. The Turkish state itself believes that Albanians are there in very large numbers in the country unlike other communities. To what extent the community speaks Albanian or holds on to Albanian identity etc is an academic issue.Resnjari (talk) 03:57, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Should we add minor languages?

Latest comment: 5 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion

I feel we should add more minor languages as Albanian communities speak them. For example, Turkey has many ethnic Albanians and they speak Turkish. Same for Italy, Greece, and other countries.Thenabster126 (talk) 19:20, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Nah, it is better as is now. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:38, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
I don't see why that is necessary here. On Albanian communities in the diaspora etc that info is given in their respective pages. If a reader wants to know more about them, they can consult those articles. Also cramming all that info in this infobox does a disservice, as it is already limited for space.Resnjari (talk) 22:49, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Is an infobox required here?Thenabster126 (talk) 03:30, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Other articles have an infobox on ethnic groups and so does this one.Resnjari (talk) 03:39, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Why do other articles have minor languages? Should we delete them?Thenabster126 (talk) 19:16, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Other articles are other articles. If you want to take it up with them go ahead. There are many articles on Albanian communities around the world where their distinct linguistic situations are explained. I don't really see what adding a whole host of languages to the infobox of this main article about Albanians means unless to give off the impression that the Albanian language is just one of many languages, and not really the main thing with this ethnic group. Its not needed here. If a readers wants to know about Albanians in Turkey or Australia they can go and readup on those pages for more info.Resnjari (talk) 23:47, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Harvey Sarner

Latest comment: 4 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion

Harvey Sarner was an attorney, not a journalist or scholar. His writings are not WP:RS. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 23:45, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Being an attorney doesn't prevent anyone from creating reliable material, also the link you provided actually proves Harvey's credibility and importance within Jewish studies and Jewry in general. Note that a discussion on the removal of content should be held before the revert of the sourced material. N.Hoxha (talk) 00:00, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
The mere fact that a book isn't self-published doesn't automatically make it a reliable source. The printing of this particular book was financed by the Albanian American Civic League and distributed to American Jewish communities for PR purposes in the lead-up to the Kosovo War. It has been used to disseminate factually incorrect tropes about the Holocaust in Albania, such as that 100% of Albanian Jews were saved or that Albania was the only country in Europe whose Jewish population increased over the course of the war. Both are demonstrably false. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 15:15, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
Being financed from the Albanian American league doesn't prove or demonstrate in any shape or form that the material is unreliable. I'm not sure to understand your rhetoric about Jews and the Kosovo war, are you trying to suggest that Jews were responsible or involved in the war of Kosovo? I want to ask you to clarify those claims, as Jews have been wrongfully accused multiple times of creating wars by notorious anti-semitics and racists. Such claims are unacceptable on Wikipedia. N.Hoxha (talk) 15:50, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
Way to build a straw man there, bucko, and avoid addressing the issue. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 22:44, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
It clearly shows that it as a partisan source, and a strong link with national goals of the time has been established. If you want to spin, you should do it much better. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 01:06, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

2011 Census Caution

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The article uses 2011's census quite a bit, primarily with religious statistics. That's fine but do note the census is extremely questionable and has been deemed corrupt by Albanian authorities as well as the Council of Europe. This should be noted when used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.60.22.201 (talk) 02:54, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Albanian ethnic flag

Latest comment: 3 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

What I would like to ask everyone is, do ethnic Albanians have their own flag? I discovered that they have had it since the Ottoman Empire, it is a red flag with a black line. It is used today as a civilian flag in Albania. I ask that because in some countries, an ethnic flag cannot be like the flag of a country. Thanks!--Savasampion (talk) 17:26, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

The flag of the Albanians is the Flag of Albania. In the Ottoman era, it was preserved among the Arbereshe. It was banned in the Ottoman Empire. For the first time since the 15th century, it was flown in the Battle of Deçiq in present-day Montenegro.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
I know that, but in some countries an ethnic flag cannot be the flag of any country. I also know that any flag with a double-headed eagle was banned in the Ottoman Empire, but also that Albanians in that empire had a trade flag (see here: https: //www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/tr-ottom.html #alb, https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/al~.html#civ and https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/al_ottom.html#non) used today as a civilian the flag of Albania. Arbëreshë can be used freely and anywhere because it is not 100% like the flag of any country (Albania).--Savasampion (talk) 02:09, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Stratioti

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Please do the cross reference with the Stratioti page. It is sourced that the stratioti were recruited in Albania, Greece, Dalmatia, Serbia and later Cyprus - So Albanians, Serbs and Greeks. There is no "Albanian exclusivity" ... Pixius talk 15:15, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Map

Latest comment: 3 years ago13 comments6 people in discussion
 
map

I fail to see how this map can keep existing on the article; a Principality of Arbanon, which covered central Albania in 1210, existed and yet this map shows something which is simply incorrect and innacurate. It contradicts the article on multiple points and should be removed.--Botushali (talk) 05:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

The map doesn't contradict the current bibliography, in fact it shows 14th century movements and that's after 1210 and depicts movements south of the P.of Ar.. It's sourced in commons.Alexikoua (talk) 18:20, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
The map is WP:FRINGE. It depicts Albanians as not living in Albania in a specific area after the first Albanian state had been formed - at the same area 100 years earlier -- and hundreds of years after Proto-Albanian language is considered by all linguists to have been in Albania.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:30, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Albanians did not come to Albania in the 14th century. "Epirus Nova" was an administration unit under Justinian era which did not exist in the middle ages. How did this map even enter the article? Durraz0 (talk) 18:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
The Thessaly article itself says that Albanians settled Thessaly as early as 1268. This map gives the impression that Albanians settled central Albania after 1300. Hahaha Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:53, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
The (inaccurate) lede of the article describes Albanians as mentioned for the first time in historical records from the 11th century as people living across the mountainous region of the Mat and Drin rivers in the Western Balkans The citation is Attaleiates and the Albanians living near Durrës - not Mat. The map contradicts the article in many, many points. The map is a fringe talking point.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:58, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
For instance, the map gives the impression that Albanians settled Berat around 1330. The Byzantine Empwror in 1272 sent a letter to the Albanian leaders of Durres and Berat [9]. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:25, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree. I have long had issues with this map. It's primary function is clearly to portray Albanians as "non-native" to Albania yet it gets basic facts wrong as well. The time for it to go is long overdue. Calthinus (talk) 13:22, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Recent scholarship states that Berat was invaded by Albanians in 1337 (Osswald), [[10]] and appears in aggrement with the specific map, which by the way its also sourced. I'm not certain if Osswald and other top graded scholars should be dismissed that way. Berat never belonged to Arbanon by the way.Alexikoua (talk) 14:17, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Where in there does it say there weren't already Albanians when it was invaded by (other) Albanians? It says they invaded Berat, and invaded Epirus for the first time. Not "they invaded Berat for the first time". Quote, In 1337, the Albanians of Epirus Nova invaded the area of Berat and appeared for the first time in Epirus, seizing the fortresses of Skrepario, Timoro and Klisoura. It implies Skrepario, Timoro and Klisoura are in Epirus proper but not Berat itself. --Calthinus (talk) 15:08, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Indeed, @Calthinus: before those invasions there were Albanians in the region. An invasion means that a group takes political control, not that for the first time a group enters an area. Around 1328 the Byzantine Emperor John VI Kantakouzenos saw Albanian nomads who lived in the Kolonja region - that is before those invasions. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:51, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
@Calthinus:@Ktrimi991: Alexikoua has put forward the same narrative about the appearance of Albanians in Epirus. It is wrong because he was half-quoting secondary bibliography and never verified the primary sources. Where did the Albanians who took Berat came from? Nicol (1984): The Albanians in the district between Balagrita and Kanina had against risen in rebellion, in spite of the privileges which the emperor had recently granted them (..) Balagrita lay in the region of Mount Tomor (Tomorit) near Berat The Albanians who Alexikoua thinks that they came from north of Berat, lived 100km southwest of Berat.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:26, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
@Maleschreiber: I agree. That map better not come back.--Calthinus (talk) 17:14, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Synthesizing figures

Latest comment: 2 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Alexikoua subtracted from sources published in 2015-2017, figures about people whom Greece declared as "co-ethnics" in 2006-2008. It's textbook WP:SYNTH to remove/add figures from different sources which refer to figures published many years apart from each other.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:35, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Maleschreiber The figures are based on the data of the 2001 census and the source counts them as part of the Albanian citizens registered in Greece in 2001. Assuming that all Albanian citizens in Greece are ethnic Albanians constitutes wp:POV. Part of this number are members of the ethnic Greek minority from Albania and this is well sourced by official numbers. "Greek co-ethnics" means that we can't count them as ethnic Albanians. That's simple to understand. Alexikoua (talk) 20:36, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
We live in 2022. The article doesn't "count" ethnic Greeks as Albanians - it uses sources published after 2013. It's WP:SYNTH to subtract 2001 figures found in a 2006 source from sources published in 2015, 2016 and 2017. Side comment: The article uses moderate figures up to 600k. If we used as the upper limit the data of the National Institute of Diaspora of Albania, the upper limit would be 750k. --Maleschreiber (talk) 23:02, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
These figures are very moderate - they don't even include the official Albanian estimation of Albanian emigrants in Greece, and they don't include estimations about the number of Cham Albanians and other Albanian communities that still exist within Greece's borders. The very least we can do is to refrain from distorting them by synth calculations between new and old sources. Additionally, the numbers should reflect the statistics discussed in the Greece section; articles need to be consistent with their information. Botushali (talk) 06:49, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Someone removed Albanians in Turkey from the List.

Latest comment: 2 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Good day,

I have noticed that the number for Albanians in Turkey was removed from the list. I have copied now the Text which it normally would have said: "Turkey 500,000–5,000,000 b[14][15][16]"

I would ask for it to be added again.

Best regards,

Turkish citizens are Turks ,there are no Albanians in Turkey besides Tourist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.113.98.23 (talk) 23:33, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

InNeed95 — Preceding unsigned comment added by InNeed95 (talk • contribs) 20:51, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Turkey is still listed in the infobox - it's under "Asia and Africa". --Local hero talk 21:18, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Good day, Thanks for telling me that I didnt see it. I just remembered that it was once under the europe group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by InNeed95 (talk • contribs) 13:46, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Origins: Controversy or Debate?

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

While the two words are similar, debate, in my opinion, applies to the Origin of Albanians over controversy.

There is little to no controversy on Albanian origin as being from the region they inhabit - this consensus was reached quite a while ago and there are readily available, peer reviewed sources from multiple disciplines that confirm this.

However, the debate on for example the Illyrian theory, Thracian theory etc still continues and likely always will. That is quite different from the general controversy of Albanian origin that is found primarily online as that form of controversy is linked to nationalistic rivalries within the region, and not academia, research, linguistics etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Varvanitis (talk • contribs) 22:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

There is no controversy,Albanians are "Roma" and therefore originate in India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.113.98.23 (talk) 23:36, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:22, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Regional map is such a tunnel vision lens

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

For being such a small continent compared to others this biased page breaks down Europe into tiny fragments like if you are dissecting a frog. Yet with other continents like Asia & Africa, you just lump it all into one BIG pot. and the Americas you put Canada and Argentina in the same region?? But for one country in Europe which is neighbor to another you break it down into a different department unfairly. "West-South-North-East". No other continent is done that way as much as Europe is. And last I checked, Canada is much farther from Argentina than Serbia is from Czech republic. And don't try to come up with the "Well most Albanians live in Europe" Yes I'm aware most Albanians live in Europe more than other continents but this is not the only subject piece where they will biasly break down continents like this. Just say "Europe" and list the countries in Europe. It's that simple, otherwise say "Northern North America then. And enough with the Arrogant "this is not the topic for it" no you don't get to decide, this is about integrity of the log and consistency nothing more. You don't have to do a "north south east west", in that case where's the "Central part" then? If the United States was broken down the way Europe was in this article Portland and Seattle would be listed in different regions of the US. Portland would be listed as "Western US" and Seattle would be listed as "Northern US" whereas San Antonio TX would be listed as "Western US" & Houston would be listed as "Southern US" despite being really close to one another. You follow me? 76.167.193.57 (talk) 03:38, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Nation

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Based on the definition of nation, which one can read on Wikipedia, the Albanians constitute a nation. I have made this edit as an addition. Considering the history of the Albanians, the political status in the Balkans regarding predominately ethnic-Albanian countries etc, the Albanians are most definitely not merely an ethnic group, but a nation as well. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:20, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Explanatory footnotes edit warring

Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments2 people in discussion

@Ahmet Q.:,@HoneymoonAve27:,@Maleschreiber:

All three of you have been involved in a slow burn edit war on whether to have {{efn|name=status}} in the article when Kosovo is mentioned. I'm not seeing any attempt at discussion, either here on this talk page or on your respective user talk pages. This is not how we do things here. Please note that WP:SUMMARYNO says edit summaries are not for "long-winded arguments with fellow editors". Yet another revert with a long edit summary isn't going to finally convince any of you of the veracity of the other's position. The status quo does not have the footnote. I encourage parties to leave it that way pending discussion on the issue here. Please discuss. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 20:47, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for starting the thread, Hammersoft. I was expecting that the account who wants to propose the change was going to do so, hence I waited for them to start it but I probably should have started it myself.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:21, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Albanians from the Ottoman Empire

Latest comment: 1 year ago18 comments3 people in discussion

I just realized that in connection with the Ottoman Empire we have too many Albanian categories. So Albanina people of x descent categories should only exist for those who lived after the forming of Albanian in the 1910s. Someone who lived in the Ottoman Empire should be in the People from the Ottoman Empire of Boo descent cats. We currently have Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Albanian descent, Category:Albanians in the Ottoman Empire and Category:Albanian people in the Ottoman Empire. This is clearly only at most 2 categories. Oh, it gets worse, we also have Category:Albanians from the Ottoman Empire that is a sub-cat of Category:People from the Ottoman Empire by ethnicity which is a parent to the People from the Ottoman Empire by ethnic or national descent cat. We do not seem to have either Category:Macedonians from the Ottoman Empire or Category:People from the Ottoman Empire of Macedonian descent. I can not state how much we are really following good principals in these categories. Clearly we should only have 2 Albanian categories at most, and I would ask 2 questions. 1-with much of the Albanian lands in the Ottoman Empire for several centuries, does it make sense to seperate descent and not descent cats? With American people of Albanian descent they are clearly in a state of being removed from the ethnic homeland, this is not the case for Albanians in the Ottoman Empire. The other issues that relates to this is, if we have someone in the Ottoman Empire who for whatever reason we are not comfortable saying they are in fact "Albanian", is their ethnicity at all defining. The big problem is that some category names were developed for cases like the United States and people from groups that immigrated to the US from elsewhere. They do not work easily in Eastern Europe.~~~~ John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:06, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

One issues is that for Greek, Albanian, Bulgarian and several other Balkan ethnicities we are using one term to describe 1-people who are ethnically that who live in the country 2-people who are ethnically that who live in other countries and 3-people who are not ethnically that, but are nationals of that country. There are reasons to use terms loosely, especially when it reflects usage in common practice. However there are limits. Right now for Albanians we have 1-Ventician Albanians 2-Kosovo Albanians 3-Yugoslav Albanians and 4-Albanaians from the Ottoman Empire (but see the mess there above). We do have Category:Albanians in Greece but that is not currently under Category:Albanians like the other categories. It is instead under Albanian diaspora, but are Cham Albanians really a diasporatic population? In some ways they seem more to harken to a time when the zone of ethnic Albanians was larger, if also more interspersed. Also I could see arguments for creating Category:North Macedonia Albanians, since that is another place where many ethnic Albanians reside, sometimes in fully Albanian communities. We have Category:Albanian communities in North Macedonia , and we do have Category:Albanians in North Macedonia. The names seem a bit messy.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:18, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
  • It is not just the names of categories. Melos Bajrami is in Category:Albanians in North Macedonia. The opening describes him as a "Kosovoan professional footballer". He was born in what is now Resen, North Macedonia in 2001, so after Yugoslavia had dissolved. The first mention the article makes is that in 2021 Bajrami joined a football side in Korçë, Albania. So Did he grow up in North Macedonia or in Kosovo? How old was he when he moved? Did he actually live in Kosovo, or were his parents from Kosovo, went to North Macedonia in the 1999 or so war, and then stayed there, until at some point the family or him alone went to the country of Albania? In 2022 Bajrami goes to North Macedonia to play for a team there with an Albanian name, so I suspect many of its players are ethnically Albanian. It gets better, Bajrami was also eligible to represent Australia on the international level? So now it looks like Bajrami might fit in Category:North Macedonia emigrants to Austrlia; at least if we are willing to use that category for anyone who left North Macedonia from 1991 on, using a unified name for a unified polity. However does that category make sense if he is now back in North Macedonia? On the other hand if he could represent Australia, than in what way would he not be an emigrant? For now I have placed him in North Macedonia emigrants and Immigrants to Australia both because the unified category does not exist and because the issue of how he gained standing with Kosovo is unclear, so his move from North Macedonia to Australia may have been interrupted by time in Kosovo. Do we really want people in both Category:Macedonian people of Kosovoan descent and Category:Albanians in North Macedonia? There might be some people in North Macedonia who identify as "Kosovoan" who also identify as Serbian and not Albanian, but is it enough to justify having 2 distinct categories. On the other hand, are ethnic Albanians whose families have lived in what is now North Macedonia for generations a distinct group enough from those who more recently migrated from Kosovo, especially considering the area is all under 1 overall government until 1991? If they are distinct groups, should we at least make a setup where people would not be in both categories?John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:34, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
Category:Albanians from the Ottoman Empire has more than 100 articles, while the other Ottoman-related cats you mentioned have around 10 each. Maybe the other cats should all be deleted as they are redundant. The Chams are not a diaspora but a native population which settled the area in the Middle Ages (before the 11th century). Category:North Macedonia Albanians could contain all North Macedonian Albanians, including those who live abroad. For comparison, Category:Kosovo Albanians and Category:Kosovo Serbs contain people who live abroad. Category:Albanians in North Macedonia could contain only those who live in North Macedonia. In any case, Category:Albanians in North Macedonia can't contain Albanians from North Macedonia who live abroad (including the "Kosovan" ones who are Albanians from North Macedonia with Kosovo citizenship). Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:41, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
I think the existing Category:Macedonian people of Albanian descent is best for Albanian Macedonian individuals. --Local hero talk 19:02, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
"Macedonian of Albaniab descent" is misleading as it can be read as X person has Albanian ancestry but ethnic Macedonian identity. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:10, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
That's an odd interpretation and I don't believe it applies to a single person currently listed in that category. This wording is pretty standard: Category:Greek people of Albanian descent, Category:Albanian people of Montenegrin descent, Category:Albanian people of Macedonian descent, Category:Serbian people of Macedonian descent, Category:Turkish people of Albanian descent, Category:Romanian people of Ukrainian descent, and so on... --Local hero talk 19:18, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
Those cats are pretty standard bc whoever created them did not think twice about what they were doing. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:26, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
Or maybe better said, those who added articles to those cats added whatever they could add without thinking carefully about what the cat names could imply. A Macedonian of Albanian descent might be an ethnic Albanian from North Macedonia but also an ethnic Macedonian with Albanian ancestry. A Macedonian Albanian can only be an ethnic Albanian from North Macedonia. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:30, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
The standard naming of those (and many many more) categories is not the work of just one person clearly. Please see Wikipedia:Category_names#Heritage.
PS, a Macedonian Albanian is an ethnic Macedonian from Albania (an Albanian Macedonian is an ethnic Albanian from Macedonia). --Local hero talk 20:18, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
Ofc it made sense to them, hence they made the mess. PS: "Macedonian Albanian" redirects to Albanians in North Macedonia. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:25, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
Ok then bring your case to "them". PS Albanian Macedonians redirects to that page as well. Hyphenated ethnicity involves putting the actual ethnicity first and the country adjective second. --Local hero talk 20:57, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
I am not interested in wasting time with changing the names of some cats or getting them deleted, when those cats are hardly checked by any reader. I was just giving my opinion to the editor who raised the issues. "Croatian Serbs" redirects to Serbs in Croatia. Polish Germans redirects to a page which has links to both Germans in Poland and Poles in Germany. Hence "Macedonian Albanian" is not only used for (Slav) Macedonians in Albania as you claimed. Do not expect more responses from me. I prefer to use my time for better things. Bye, Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:51, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Sources

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments3 people in discussion

I took some content used from Tsoutsoumpis and added it to the article. I added his paper in the list of sources for easy use. Cham-Axis collaboration is mentioned alongisde other major reasons. Botushali (talk) 03:19, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

You just copy-pasted what another added at another article. Btw the Cham-claimed figure of 35,000 is ludicrous, since the actual number of Muslim Chams was just 20,000-25,000 in all of Epirus. Khirurg (talk) 03:25, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Indeed, as soon as I saw what Maleschrieber posted on Expulsion of Cham Albanians I decided to copy-paste that here. It's a good, succinct way to describe the multi-faceted reality of the Cham expulsion in line with WP:NPOV. The 35,000 figure may indeed be excessive, so remove that if you like. The main thing is to reflect the issues beyond a one-dimensional POV. Botushali (talk) 03:29, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Another problem is the sentence: "The first certain reference to Albanians as an ethnic group comes from 11th century chronicler Michael Attaleiates who describes them as living in the theme of Dyrrhachium." In fact Attaleiates mentiones an Celtic tribe and just once. So either cite the right reference or remove, please.Sorbonneparis (talk) 17:06, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Michael Attaleiates is referring to a Celtic tribe in the Balkans during the 11th century CE? Right… Botushali (talk) 21:48, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Religion

Latest comment: 10 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Remove the "82%" in muslim albanians. They make only 59% of the population. Christians make 38% of the population and you should ignore the 2011 census because it was claimed as inappropriate by Council of Europe. 188.172.110.100 (talk) 10:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
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