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Talk:AFL Grand Final

Latest comment: 1 year ago by Mellohi! in topic Requested move 11 January 2023
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Assorted old comments edit

Latest comment: 13 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

I know nothing about AFL but I just saw Dame Edna on TV and they showed a clip of her singing. Maybe there should be a list of people who have sung at the game.--Gbleem 05:32, 23 December 2005 (UTC)Reply

How can the AFL Grand Final be watched by more people than watch the Melbourne Cup? AFL isn't even that popular in NSW or Queensland. The reference [1] leads to an empty article from a Victorian newspaper. As such it should be viewd as an unreliable fact.144.140.22.4 09:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

The AFL is the most watched and supported ($) game in the world per population. Given that 1/3rd of Australia do not follow the game (due to the fact they feel playing another countries game is more important as it instantly becomes international) this is a phenomenal sport. Aussie Rules is developed from the Irish (1800's convict) game of Gaelic football combined with the indigenous aboriginal game of Mangrook. It is a high speed game which encompasses a greater variety of skill then any other game in the world. Whilst Soccer still represents the height of singular skill AFL proves to be the height of athletic diversity. The AFL's 700 strong playing list can kick, handpass and bounce an oval shaped ball with both sides of their body. Combined with this is the ability to cover over 20km (12 miles plus) during a game. Another skill is the athletic marking (completion) from kicks, often over 50m, by leaping over each others bodies to catch (referred to as a mark). Aussie Rules ia a true (the only true) 360 degree sport, there is no off-side. But you can also get bumped (Charged into by another player because you are near the ball, whether you have the ball or not) or tackled from any direction. It is a uniquely powerful sport that is now played competitively in over 30 countries in the world.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.110.94.65 (talk) 13:57, 15 May 2010 (UTC)Reply

The Premiership Flag edit

Latest comment: 16 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I think there should be some mention of the premiership flag - after all that is what the premiers really win, and it has huge symbolic importance. I also believe that the premiership cup is a much more recent invention. Any opinions? Albreda 10:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

I agree. We are playing for the 'flag'. It's a bit like the 'pennant' (winner of the American League or National League) in Major League Baseball. 124.188.147.119 08:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC) soxdownunderReply

The redevelopment edit

Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I think that the crowd for the 2006 final was not impeded by the mcg redevolpment. (as stated in the recent history section) Any comfirmations? Johnwrw 08:47, 30 September 2006 (UTC)Reply

97,400 was the crowd figure given on WA radio Gnangarra 08:36, 30 September 2006 (UTC)Reply

What I am saying is that the asterix next to the figure should be removed>Johnwrw 08:47, 30 September 2006 (UTC)Reply

Brisbane Lions edit

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I've removed the reference to the Brisbane Lions being the first club to win 3 Premierships in a row. Collingwood won 4, Carlton and Melbourne (twice) also won 3 Grand Finals on the trot. See here. ComaDivine 21:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Nicknames on Recent History of AFL Grand Finals edit

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This table needs to be cleaned up to either add the nicknames after the teams that dont have them or remove them from the teams that do. Lynx Raven Raide 01:44, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

1980s ignored edit

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The entire decade of the 1980s is skipped omitted for no obvious reason. Given the great grand finals include the 83/84/85 Hawthorn/Essendon battles, and the 1989 Geelong/Hawthorn contest, it seems odd to miss the whole decade. Aujoz (talk) 07:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)Reply

Onanism? edit

Latest comment: 16 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

What is the provenance of this statement With an official attendance of 97,302 at the 2007 AFL Grand Final,[2] is also the largest domestic club championship event in the world. There have been bigger crowds at Odsal Stadium and Stadium Australia for RL championship matches for starters. Typical kick 'n' Giggle hubristic onanism perhaps? Albatross2147 23:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

All the statement does is say that it is the best attended, which it is currently. This is mainly because the MCG is the biggest stadium. --Spewmaster 22:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Reply
Yes. It is incredibly stupid to compare figures for this years grand final with the largest crowds in other places throughout history. The most attended event currently is the criterion addressed in that sentenc, best attended ever is another criterion altogether. If we are talking about all of history, we also need to include the 121,000 at the 1970 AFL grand final. I don't know where that stands in a worldwide ranking, but it definitely beats Odsal and Stadium Australia. As Spewmaster says, it is all about the capacity of the stadium at the relevant point in time. JPD (talk) 10:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Doesn't have the biggest TV audience either: http://www.thinktv.com.au//Media/Stats_&_Graphs/Top_Programs/Top_50_Programs_2007.pdf or seemingly the best attended sporting event http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/18/1981332.htm

RL Man you are ridiculous. The AFL only gets bigger crowds cos the MCG is bigger...why do you think it is bigger fuckhead, bums on seats paid for it. and the RL games you talked about are still less than than the 121 696 at pies vs blues in 1970. It's still irrelevant as any sport in the world could sell half a million tickets for the GF, from footy to hurling. The important factor is weekly, game after game attendance. 2009 saw the AFL rank third in the world for per game attendance after the American NFL and the German Priemer League, and in front of the English Priemer League, RL of any form not in top ten. Then if considered per population AFL is a mile in front of any sport. Wake up dickhead, you have no arguement....

P.S. keep playing with the dictionary, big words can easily disguise a poor arguement...

2010 draw edit

Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Does it count as a meeting, like if the drawn game was a meeting, does the replayed game count as the same meeting? I don't think it does but I wanted another opinion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.12.139.111 (talk) 07:29, 25 September 2010 (UTC)Reply

Start time edit

Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

What time does it start? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.180.86 (talk) 01:58, 2 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Trophy? edit

Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There is no pic of the trophy! Like the ICC World Cup page. 116.240.160.200 (talk) 14:35, 1 April 2011 (UTC)Reply

List of winners edit

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I assume most people who access this page just want to see who won a grand final on a particular year. There are lists of attendance for every year, norm smith medalists for every year. Even entertainers for every year. I would have though the first thing to be added would be list which TEAMS played, and which team WON. That is the point of the grand final after all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.121.144.94 (talk) 02:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)Reply

Tiny oversight edit

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Call me crazy, call me mad, but I would have thought that in amongst all these lists of who sang at the final and which television networks carried the game somewhere there would have been room for a list of the finalists and scores of each match. If you look closely there is a link at the bottom to the List of Australian Football League premiers - but given that the term "premiers" for a league's final position is largely unknown outside Australia, it won't help the majority of readers. At the very least, the link needs to be in a more prominent position; preferably, however, there needs to be a section in the article actually detailing the winners and finalists! Grutness...wha? 07:15, 15 December 2011 (UTC)Reply

Not B-Class edit

Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I just want to put it out there that I think this article is a mess at the moment (May 2012). Personally, I think it should be demoted from B-Class to C-Class until significant improvements can be made. A specific list of problems I have are given below:

  • The "game history" section starts by re-covering a lot of the Early VFL Final systems content; in the middle section, it covers a lot of the Melbourne Cricket Ground history section; by the end, it just becomes a prose re-statement of the results. (I recognise that all of those bits are important for explaining the Grand Final in context, but there's too much of it, and not much else). This section is most notable for a nearly complete absence of references.
  • "Notable Grand Finals" is just another prose re-statement of the results - but I think it's a valid one which I think works well, although it lacks references.
  • "Recent grand finals" is another prose re-statement of results.
  • "Qualification and prize" is a good section. To the point, and doesn't re-hash the AFL Finals system article.
  • "Premiership glory" is for the most part flowery, non-encyclopedic original research.
  • "Premiership cup", "the Flag" and "Prize money" are all okay, although there is a hanging reference to 'the current cash prize' which doesn't make it clear which year is referred to.
  • "Brownlow Medal" has no context where it is, and a "Grand Final Week" section needs to be created to give it context.
  • "Grand Final Parade" - no need for a list of year-by-year parade crowds. Just needs a few examples in the prose to give an idea of the order of magnitude.
  • "Entertainment" is now a large enough list that it can be broken out into its own article (as is the case for List of Super Bowl halftime shows)
  • "Traditional songs" is no longer valid. Not sure when that tradition died, but presenting it as such is now false. Still worth including in the article, but needs the dates.
  • "Grand Final sprint" is a valid discussion, but again I'd move the list to its own page – simply because in the grand scheme of the AFL Grand Final, nobody cares who won the sprint.
  • "Venue and schedule" works well, but could be further up the article.
  • "Numbering of Grand Finals" is important, but could be presented better, and as part of the "game history" section.
  • "Norm Smith Medallists" - a description of the Norm Smith Medal is valid, but the list of winners is not because this is already found in Norm Smith Medal.
  • "VFL/AFL Grand Final records" is fine.
  • "Attendance" and "metropolitan viewers" could do with a reword, but is generally okay.
  • Missing from this article is a discussion of the presentations (and that thing with the Auskick children presenting medals), the Grand Final breakfast, the motorcade, rules regarding replays, the team photo, and various other relevant events.
  • Just generally, the organisation of the article is jumbled, jumping from the prize and trophy down to the Grand Final Week events, then to some more history discussion, then back to the presentations with the Norm Smith Medal.

I'm going to start working on some of the changes that are needed, but this list is here for anyone else who feels like contributing. Aspirex (talk) 00:37, 19 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

Most wins edit

Latest comment: 10 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Most wins is incorrect as it states Carlton alone has the record, the site referenced to "prove" this is factually inaccurate as Essendon is listed as having 14 premierships when it is actually 16. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.246.207 (talk) 13:19, 28 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

No it's perfectly correct. The reference isn't saying Essendon have 14 premierships, it's saying they have won 14 grand finals. They didn't contest a grand final when they won the comp in 1897 and 1924. See links. Jevansen (talk) 01:00, 29 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

History section edit

Latest comment: 3 years ago3 comments1 person in discussion

The history section of this article still has a very serious structural issue – in that the first few sections talk about the evolution of the match as an occasion and institution (e.g. when the MCG capacity was expanded, when the finals series changed, when it began receiving television coverage); but, the last few sections are doing nothing but restating results in prose. There is a need to keep the whole history section consistent in content, but really after the 1980s there isn't much left to say about the occasion, is there? Aspirex (talk) 08:36, 13 October 2013 (UTC)Reply

Just to let everyone know in advance, I'm finally working on the major restructuring of this article that I've been dreaming of for the last seven years, so expect big changes soon. I'm trimming out a lot of the parts that just restate results. I'm setting clearer guidelines for inclusion in the 'notable grand finals' section and finally adding references to it. I'm forking sections which clog the page (the sprint, the grand final records). I'm finally including a description of the 80s push to move to VFL Park (the most significant part of the game's history which has previously gone undescribed), and fleshing out the AFL Grand Final location debate article to do so. I'm working through a big update to references throughout (although I'm coming up short in a few areas). And probably a few other things. Aspirex (talk) 20:13, 8 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
Done. Aspirex (talk) 01:29, 12 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

External links modified edit

Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Stadium location edit

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The location for the AFL Grand Final page says that it was always played at MCG, but on the 2020 & 2021 AFL Grand Final pages says the correct location of the Gabba (2020) and Optus Stadium (2021)??

Agree. There is no explanation as to why ... attempted to but it was removed --Rulesfan (talk) 04:16, 15 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

Requested move 11 January 2023 edit

Latest comment: 1 year ago39 comments18 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Relisting unlikely to result in a different outcome. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 20:26, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

– The term "grand final" is not a proper name, nor part of a proper name in these; it is not consistently capitalized in sources, any more than quarter-final or semi-final or final. This selection of articles stands for the list of 307 articles at User:Dicklyon/Grand_Finals (selecting just the most recent year of multi-year groups). We can get a bot to move them, assuming we find consensus here, as we've done with other recent sports downcasing RMs, most recently at Talk:1902 VFL grand final. There is still a longer list of "XXX Final" to be done later. Dicklyon (talk) 22:43, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

I take no issue with this as part of a broader encyclopedia-wide downcasing activity, and the last one was fairly strong in consensus. Have any previous RMs proven more controversial on the subject? Aspirex (talk) 22:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
Done some research into other RMs of this nature. I support the moves, MOS:CAPS is fairly clear that a 'substantial majority' of references need to capitalize for WP to capitalize; and when I researched major media references I found around 50% caps (including the AFL [1], Herald Sun [2] and Channel 7 [3]) 50% not caps (including the Age [4], Guardian [5] and ABC [6]). I do prefer the caps as a personal style and have always used them in the past, but the policy looks clear, hence I support blanket move. Aspirex (talk) 02:13, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Strong Oppose - Sigh. Alas, this issue is lost, informality has won and all of these will be moved. Grand Final is a proper name in Australian English and style guides of media companies that don't even capitalise abbreviations like APAC or NASA should give cause for concern, not be followed blindy into the abyss. As remarked in one of their style guides "the tendency towards lowercase, which in part reflects a less formal, less deferential society, has been accelerated by the explosion of the internet: some web companies, and many email users, have dispensed with capitals altogether", so while I strongly oppose I know my view on this will not be reflected as it was here. Storm machine (talk) 23:23, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
    • "Grand final" has been mostly lowercase, in most contexts, in these articles for many years; the question is whether there are some proper names that should be removed from the list, based on evidence of consistent capitalization in sources. Dicklyon (talk) 03:28, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
      Instances of Official name/abbreviation of league Grand Final in titles and prose are proper names for events (as is the recently lost FIFA World Cup Final); in the same vein as Super Bowl and Country Grand Prix. I would argue that MOS:SPORTSCAPS should be expanded to specifically include these three terms at the same level, but know that it is pointless when media (and WP) style guides are full of obtuse inconsistencies. Storm machine (talk) 06:44, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose Per WP:ENGVAR. Grand Final is capitalised in Australian English. See the Style Manual for guidance. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:31, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
    • I just learned that "AFL Grand Final" (or more formally, "Australian Football League Grand Final Friday") is the name of a public holiday in Australia, and capped as such. But for the name of the game, it's less often capitalized; many sources speak of the "AFL grand final". Dicklyon (talk) 03:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Strong Oppose In Australia "Grand Final", particularly for the major professional leagues, is almost always capitalised. I wouldn't pretend to know what happens elsewhere, and it bothers me when someone from another country tells me, wrongly, what happens here. HiLo48 (talk) 23:36, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose for Challenge Tour Grand Final and LETAS Grand Final which are proper names for golf tournaments (though LETAS Grand Final should be moved to LETAS Grand Finale). No opinion on others. Tewapack (talk) 23:43, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
    • I agree that Rolex Challenge Tour Grand Final is a proper name; it doesn't usually appear without Rolex, so it's less clear what we should do there. Dicklyon (talk) 03:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
    • LETAS Grand Final is a term that appears rarely if at all in sources. None of the cited sources nor the official web page use that term. Most don't have "grand" in either upper or lower case. It appears in a quotation capped as "the Grand Final event of the season"; same article mentions "the 2022 season finale will take place". So what basis do we have to treat this as a proper name? Dicklyon (talk) 03:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
      • Challenge Tour Grand Final is the most common non-sponsored name of the tournament which was why it was chosen as the article title. I've moved the LETAS tournament to the correct name which is supported by the sources. Tewapack (talk) 18:24, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Weak agree Despite what others claim, grand final is a common noun, often incorrectly capitalised. Same as semi-final, preliminary final, home & away, premiership, finals series et al, all of which are routinely miscapitalised. But is a particular sport's decider a proper noun, and the specific instances as well? It looks wrong, but here might be a case that they are. Local Potentate (talk) 05:26, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
    Yes, and where there is such a case, it should be made here. It's clear that some are not even capped by the orgs that put them on (e.g. National Premier Leagues NSW grand final), while some others could be proper names of events (as with the ITTF World Tour Grand Finals, which you never see lowercased in sources, so I didn't propose downcasing it). Blanket assertions above like "it's a proper name in Australia" don't really do good service to the question. Dicklyon (talk) 07:31, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
    I humbly submit that YOU began the blanket assertions here. You clearly aren't familiar with the situation in Australia, and you're not going to learn enough about it via a handful of Google searches. (It's more complicated than you might think.) As I wrote earlier, I wouldn't pretend to know what happens in countries other than Australia, and it bothers me when someone from another country tells me, wrongly, what happens here. This is a flawed move request. There is NO fixed global convention on this matter. Treat each case individually. HiLo48 (talk) 08:07, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
    It is not my intention to tell you what happens in Australia, which I know rather little of so far. This is about Wikipedia style and English-language source usage. I did check many of these and found them commonly lowercase in sources (in sentence context); e.g. the WAFL and WANFL mentioned in the next comment. Dicklyon (talk) 10:58, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Strongly Oppose all of the WAFL, WANFL events are are proper nouns and there fore always capitalised, when using grand final in a sentence when the event is unspecified ie "In 1979 we played in the grand final" it is then a common noun. that is compared to we played in the 1979 WAFL Grand Final the event Gnangarra 09:57, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
    Did you look at books, where WAFL grand final and WANFL grand final are not often capitalized? Or maybe news, where WAFL grand final and WANFL grand final are often lowercase? Dicklyon (talk) 10:58, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Support My edition of the Macquarie Dictionary does not capitalise grand final. It is a common noun phrase. It is a common error to unnecessarily capitalise the root noun phrase when it is modified by a word or phrase that is normally capitalised - eg Heisenberg's uncertainty principle not Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Proper nouns have a specific referent but this is not a defining property. Specificity in common name phrases is equally achieved by using the definite article (the) and by other modifying terms. Per the guidance at MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS, we only capitalise a name phrase when it is consistently capitalised in sources. The evidence of Aspirex does not support this being capitalised either and searches I conducted confirmed their evidence. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Procedural oppose - grouping so many unrelated articles (different sports, different competitions) makes this a clusterfuck of a nomination. No prejudice to renominating in more sensible & related smaller groups. GiantSnowman 19:30, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
    I'm willing to do it over differently if you can suggest how to split it up. So far I don't see what's different about the capitalization issues between different sports. Has anyone pointed out any that are consistently capped in sources? Dicklyon (talk) 22:35, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Support. Not consistently capitalized in sources, and claims about Australian English prove to be false (cf. Macquarie Dictionary).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:01, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose per GiantSnowman and per the inputs of actual Australians. oknazevad (talk) 00:31, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
    • Comment: I count two confirmed Australians and one likely Australian (based on topics in edit history) who support the change. We/they just haven't declared country of origin within this discussion thread. Aspirex (talk) 01:46, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Support—those above who are trying to hijack this sensible proposal using "Australian English" as their weapon: it's rubbish. Sorry, doesn't fly. Also see Cinderella above. Tony (talk) 03:59, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
The REAL problem is that the proposer made claims about usage EVERYWHERE, including Australia, that were simply wrong, ESPECIALLY in Australia. They were sloppy, sweeping generalisations. They were possibly correct in some cases, but definitely not in all cases. So Australians got cranky. You won't win a debate by getting your facts about Australia wrong, no matter what the merits of the rest of your argument. HiLo48 (talk) 10:48, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
I made no claims about everywhere. The Australians Cinderella157 and Tony1 seem to agree with my observations and proposals. Dicklyon (talk) 12:23, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
The massive list at the start of this discussion suggests otherwise. You obviously couldn't have researched each one. HiLo48 (talk) 23:12, 13 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
I researched many; didn't claim all. The only one I found that was consistently capped in sources was the ITTF World Tour Grand Finals, so I left that one alone. For rugby and footy, they don't seem to be capitalized so much. Let me know if you see otherwise. Dicklyon (talk) 09:32, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
No, I really can't be bothered. And that's the problem. Your list was too long. The idea that every single one of the items in the list needed changing, all at the same time, just seemed wrong, to me and, I'm sure, to others. HiLo48 (talk) 10:11, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
Yeah, maybe I over-interpreted some comments at the RM discussion at Talk:1902 VFL grand final that implied they'd be happier not to just look at one group, but work on consistency across many. Whatever. Dicklyon (talk) 11:18, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ https://www.superleague.co.uk/tickets/grand-final
  2. ^ https://www.nrl.com/tickets/2022-nrl-telstra-premiership-grand-final/
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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