Talk:2024 Bolivian coup attempt

Requested move 26 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. As the article was made barely a day ago, I think we should close it sooner rather than waiting a long time just because of which version was created first (See WP:BURO).

There's significant participation and the overwhelming majority is for moving, so WP:SNOW closing the discussion. (non-admin closure) Soni (talk) 08:10, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

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2024 Bolivian coup d'état attempt → 2024 Bolivian coup attempt – As per most articles in Category:Attempted coups d'état in South America, including 1984 Bolivian coup attempt (see also Category:Attempted coups d'état in Europe (11 "coup attempt" occurences, but no "coup d'état attempt") and Category:Attempted coups in Haiti, for instance). Coup is a synonym of coup d'état, and as per WP:TITLECON we should be "consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles". The pattern is clear. RodRabelo7 (talk) 20:59, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Support - for reasons stated above. Kire1975 (talk) 21:41, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose coup d'état (stroke of state) is the correct term, not just coup (stroke). Scu ba (talk) 21:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Why exactly do most pages in Category:Attempted coups d'état in Europe have "coup attempt" (11 occurences) but no "coup d'état attempt" in their names? RodRabelo7 (talk) 21:53, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Just because other articles are wrong doesn't mean we have to make this article have the wrong title. Scu ba (talk) 21:55, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Hors d'oeuvre (out of work) is the correct term (in French). No reason to stop using it to mean appetizer in English. Kire1975 (talk) 22:25, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

A word means whatever the speakers of a given language have decided it means. And in English, speakers have decided that "coup" on its own is a valid term for the violent overthrow of a government. A word is not made unalterable by being loaned from one language to another, and the rules of French do not necessarily carry over into English when we loan words from there. In short: See etymological fallacy. 188.176.174.30 (talk) 01:10, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose for same reason as Scu ba Benpiano800 (talk) 21:51, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Benpiano800, see comment above. RodRabelo7 (talk) 21:54, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Support per what looks to be a precedent. "Coup d'état" is the French phrase that was loaned into English, but both languages work differently and "coup" is now very much an acceptable shortening in English. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:55, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Support - It makes the page easier to look for, as "Coup d'état" is a far less used word as "coup". Loulougroslouis (talk) 22:02, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Support. I wanted to wait a bit more to see how the situation would develop but with troops and armored vehicles pulling back, it is unlikely to be more than an attempt. Yvan Part (talk) 22:26, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Support This space (coup-related articles) could definitely benefit from some standardization and it may necessitate a larger discussion, but I support this move for clarity, and to more closely match the language most people would associate with this event. SSR07 (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Support, why is this even a question? See the rest of the coup articles. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 22:39, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Support. Our failed coups also go along this line. Borgenland (talk) 22:39, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Support. I started an article at the proposed title a few minutes after one was created here. The naming convention as of late has been to just use "coup" since it is an acceptable English word and more WP:CONCISE. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 23:35, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Support per WP:COMMONNAME and RS coverage. CNC (talk) 00:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Support per WP:TITLECON. Altorespite 🌿 00:34, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Support per nom, SSR07, and Patar knight. "Coup" is concise without being less precise, and it's what most readers will expect given how we have named articles so far. 188.176.174.30 (talk) 01:15, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Support per above. Yeoutie (talk) 01:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Support per consistency and WP:CONCISE, and suggest a WP:SNOW close. Walsh90210 (talk) 01:45, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Support: "coup d'état" is far more rarely used in common language, and technical language is not necessary or beneficial to titles most of the time. The idea that "coup" is somehow incorrect because in French it means only "stroke" is pedantic. "Bolivian coup attempt" is shorter, nicer, means the same thing, and is in common use on and off Wikipedia. Mrfoogles (talk) 02:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Support coup is common usage nowadays which essentially makes most of the oppose !votes moot. I would move this but due to the edit history on the target it would have to be done by sysops. Aydoh8 (talk | contribs) 04:48, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: "Coup d'état" is still concise, and is also used in other articles about events like this on Wikipedia. Cyrobyte (talk) 06:03, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Support — Preceding unsigned comment added by Potholehotline (talk • contribs) 01:55, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose see: Coup d'état, the title of the page is Coup d'etat, so that should be used. Eason Y. Lu (talk) 06:35, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Support per WP:CONSISTENT/WP:TITLECON and WP:CONCISE. S5A-0043^Talk 07:03, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Coup or political crisis?

Is it too early to call this a coup attempt? Looking at similar events when a government not favorable from the perspective of the US foreign policy is being toppled (or there is attempt to do so), including the previous one also in Bolivia, articles about these are usually do not have "coup" in their titles. So perhaps this one should also have a more appropriate title, more in line with the usual article naming. 176.62.44.123 (talk) 21:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

When armored vehicles get inside the presidential palace, it's a bit too late to call it a "political crisis". Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:51, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

That + all sources are calling it a coup Genabab (talk) 22:22, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

This is the military, not a group of protesters. It is a coup, not a political crisis. Scu ba (talk) 21:51, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

If the sources call it a coup, then it is a coup. None of us are sources. It doesn't make a difference what we think it is, or what we think constitutes a coup. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The title of the article is based on what independent sources refer to the event as. 2019 remains an issue of contention between "crisis" and "coup" among independent outlets; this event has been pretty roundly termed a "coup". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 03:02, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

It`s ridiculous to call it an attempted coup. It`s not even a political crisis. Serious local newspapers like El Deber from Santa Cruz barely calls it an assault on a government buildung. And at the end it was staged by the own government. 189.28.74.179 (talk) 01:29, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Reactions section

Articles like this always get a "reactions" section that's nothing more than an indiscriminate list of people or governments who have mentioned it, which eventually has to be removed. Can we avoid that by limiting it to the reactions of people directly relevant to the situation? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Requiring citations to secondary sources such as newspapers (rather than citations to Twitter) is a good way to filter these sections and get the WP:WEIGHT right. Requiring prose rather than a bulleted list is also a good way to help filter these sections. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:29, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

¿democratic vocation?

the last sentence of the 'Domestic' section of 'Reactions' uses the phrase 'democratic vocation'. is this a mistranslation, perhaps for 'votación democrática', which would perhaps translate more as 'democratic elections' or 'plebiscite'? the reuters article referenced by footnote 16 has neither Quiroga nor Áñez use the phrase, but does include the quote "I ask people with a democratic vocation to defend the homeland from some military groups that act against democracy and the people." attributed to Evo Morales. the reuters article's translations are far from perfect, quoting Nicolás Maduro saying "We are from Venezuela denouncing a coup d'état against Bolivian democracy ..." it's a little beyond me, without access to the statements in the spanish originals Potholehotline (talk) 01:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Almost surely a mistranslation. Vocation is a synonym for profession in English. "Democratic vocation" doesn't make much sense. I've never heard the word "plebiscite". Looks like someone already changed it so should be all set. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Not a typo: vocación democrática is a bit of a set phrase in Spanish, but "democratic vocation" in English jars, smacking of translatorese. "Commitment to democracy", "democratic spirit", "democratic convictions", something like that. In the event that the unhappy phrase returns to the article... Moscow Mule (talk) 15:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

thanks for the clarification, your translations make a lot more sense Potholehotline (talk) 16:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Serial comma

In Reactions > Domestic > "Former presidents of Bolivia Jorge Quiroga and Jeanine Áñez, who is currently imprisoned," it is hard to understand that 1. If it is a join statement (no , in front of and see:Serial comma) 2. Who is imprisoned Eason Y. Lu (talk) 06:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done That sentence had multiple problems, not just confusion and WP:RELTIME. The two ex-presidents were not calling vaguely for "defence" of Bolivia. They clearly stated that they are opposed to the current government and want to change the govt through the 2025 Bolivian general election. I couldn't see anything about either of their statements in Fr24. Boud (talk) 08:43, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutrality / NPOV

This is only intended as a warning, but given that this same problem has occurred in other articles (and more so being recent), I tell you to refer to what is written in Spanish ComradeHektor (talk) 14:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Any problem can be discussed here. ComradeHektor (talk) 14:35, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 June 2024

add the names of the navy and air force leaders who participated in the coup too they were mentioned in the article but it only says the name of the army general who is Juan José Zúñiga 15:03, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Tollens (talk) 16:42, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

It seems like it was a self-coup. Remame the page as "2024 Self-Coup Attempt"

Well, everything here seems to suggest that it was a self-coup to boost the popularity of President Luis Arce. I propose changing the name of the page to "2024 Self-Coup Attempt" --Bibliotecatdj (talk) 13:34, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

And please protect the page. People is deleting important information. --Bibliotecatdj (talk) 13:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The only person I've seen make the self-coup claim is the guy who got arrested for doing the coup. There doesn't appear to be any independent substantiation that this was the case. Unbandito (talk) 13:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Not true. Even Evo Morales and members of his party are declaring that it was a self-coup. But I think in a few hours or days will have the exact information. --Bibliotecatdj (talk) 14:14, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

@Bibliotecatdj. Got any sources for this WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim? –Novem Linguae (talk) 15:49, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

@Novem Linguae At the moment only in Spanish, but Arce's own party is already calling him a "traitor" here. The attorney general is also being asked to investigate what happened at the request of several social organizations. The news are so fresh that it has not yet appeared in the newspapers, but it will soon appear. Here I leave you two in Spanish for the moment:

https://www.opinion.com.bo/articulo/pais/cupula-mas-rompe-gobierno-pide-arce-renunciar/20230816230829917554.html

https://unitel.bo/noticias/politica/las-seis-federaciones-del-tropico-de-cochabamba-denuncian-un-supuesto-autogolpe-promovido-por-el-presidente-arce-PF12428117?utm_source=unitel&utm_medium=news

--Bibliotecatdj (talk) 14:07, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Not only is it badly written, your arguments are pure WP:CRYSTALL. Borgenland (talk) 15:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I removed a WP:RM discussion section created by Bibliotecatdj. If the evidence for the proposed move will be available in a few hours or days, we should wait to start that discussion. Walsh90210 (talk) 16:00, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

It seems there is reasonable doubt about how genuine this coup attempt is.[1]https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ck5gje7gyygo Martianmister (talk) 14:45, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

So we are believing the guy who assaulted the government and injured civilians? And i know Morales Condemned Acre since he believed that it was a “Self-Coup”, But Come on! Are we believing the guy who got arrested?? or the guy who got ousted in 2019? These are the only 2 people who believe such thing 52Timer (talk) 01:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

POW Correct lable?

The coup ring leaders are listed on the infobox as "POW", prisoner of war. Is that... a proper description? There was no war first of all, and a more accurate description would be "arrested" or "detained".

Unless wikipedia's standards are beyond me, POW implies that they had been captured in combat or such, but as far as I'm aware they were arrested after the fact, and said in this article here.

Thoughts? Didn't want to update and then be told that I missed something about wiki infobox standards. JaacTreee (talk) 17:08, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, no, that's ridiculous. I've changed it to the surrendered flag. Kdroo (talk) 22:34, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

thank yoo, Kdroo JaacTreee (talk) 17:38, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Is this still a current event?

I propose that the label Template:Current be removed from the page, as the coup has ended and it is even labeled as a past event in the date of the infobox. Lydia (talk) 13:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Chile

"El ideólogo del fallido golpe en Bolivia mencionó a Chile en su defensa: esto fue lo que dijo". ATB. 2023-06-28. Retrieved 2023-06-28.

It states some allegations against Chile by the arrestee but can someone clarify what's the real case because I wasn't able to make much sense of his words Waleed (talk) 10:21, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Surrender

Are the "surrender" flags linking to the relevant article really necessary? This wasn't a conflict between two nations and neither Zúñiga nor Arnez necessarily surrendered (they were arrested having previously been at large). Krisgabwoosh (talk) 05:16, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

@Krisgabwoosh: I had readded {{Surrendered}} per American Civil War while restoring to the version before the unexplained content removal. The "linking to the relevant article" is from the template.

Just now I remembered it was originally {{POW}} in an earlier version. It seems more accurate and I edited the article to this symbol per October Crisis. 174.92.25.207 (talk) 18:26, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

The POW label was removed per a previous Talk page discussion. It honestly doesn't really fit on the October Crisis article either. I was more arguing that neither flag is necessary. The infobox already says the coup leaders were arrested. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 18:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

@Krisgabwoosh: Ok, I removed my readdition as unsourced and controversial. EDIT: You managed to hit save before me. 174.92.25.207 (talk) 18:34, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Gotta Go Fast, ha, ha. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 18:38, 30 June 2024 (UTC)