Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2021-12-28/Serendipity
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Pointing out a biological improbability may be one of the few exceptions, together with simple mathematical calculations, that can be used in this way. In most cases, we need to avoid original research and insist that Wikipedia is a tertiary source summarizing what other, mostly secondary, sources say. The requirement of verifiability and the rejection of original research are important measures to prevent the publication of misinformation in most cases, and to resolve conflicts about which statements are "correct". You'll always be able to find examples for factual errors copied from other sources to Wikipedia, but that's just caused by the way Wikipedia is designed to work. While Wikipedia makes no guarantee of validity, its approach usually works nicely. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:23, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
The Oxford Dictionary of Music also has an online edition, but it's still not corrected there either. The entry starts "Haebler, Ingrid (b Vienna, 1926) Austrian pianist. Début Salzburg 1937. Salzburg Fest. début 1954. Won Munich and Geneva int. comps. 1954", which exacerbates the error, considering that it makes quite a difference whether you debut at the Salzburg Festival at age 15 or 18.
On the other hand, the New Grove (also published by Oxford University Press) seems to state 1929, like Wikipedia. Regards, HaeB (talk) 22:45, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
- Editors can be very obstinate sometimes over making changes when a source used is itself in error. But the error ending up getting fixed so all is well. Jason Quinn (talk) 14:55, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- This seems to be a case of editors following rules rather than common sense, something that seems to be severely lacking in many people who consider themselves qualified to write an encyclopedia. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:49, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- Appealing to common sense is simple, yet pretty subjective and thus meaningless. Your "common sense" is probably perfectly fine; I'd argue mine is as well. Sadly, that isn't always the case, and even we may disagree, so we have policies (like WP:V and WP:OR) to deal with cases of conflicting "common sense"s. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 02:57, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think that anyone's common sense includes knowledge that it is extremely unlikely for siblings to have been born a few months apart. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:37, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
- WP:RULES covers this completely "Policies and guidelines should always be applied using reason and common sense." Note the "always". Always always means "always". The same point is made at WP:BURO. Both are policies. Smallbones(smalltalk) 16:56, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think that anyone's common sense includes knowledge that it is extremely unlikely for siblings to have been born a few months apart. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:37, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
- Appealing to common sense is simple, yet pretty subjective and thus meaningless. Your "common sense" is probably perfectly fine; I'd argue mine is as well. Sadly, that isn't always the case, and even we may disagree, so we have policies (like WP:V and WP:OR) to deal with cases of conflicting "common sense"s. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 02:57, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
- Ambiguous birth dates are surprisingly common, it can be for a lot of reasons. -- GreenC 05:31, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think there's much surprising about it. Reasons include vanity, which is very common especially in the performing arts, simply not knowing the circumstances of one's own birth, which applies to many orphans, and lying about one's age in order to gain legal rights, which can occur either way depending on whether one wants to be treated as an adult or a child. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:37, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
- See Bob Kane for example, who said he was an adult to sign a contract to get paid for Batman, then later said he had been underage to get a better contract when Batman was successful. Argento Surfer (talk) 16:42, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure that many Wikipedians don't understand where reports of a person's birthdate come from, or at least the don't use common sense when they see a reported birthday. Most reported birthdates come from the person themselves. Some folks - say an heir to the crown - don't have a chance to lie about their birthday. Others might have a difficult time lying, e.g me - my parents published a birth announcement soon after I was born in the local paper. But seriously - who is going to look that up, or even know it existed? I don't think most states give out birth certificates to just anybody who asks - though it might be easier than you'd think to get one if you know the birthplace (and lie a bit). Courts might require a birth certificate or other proof of age in certain cases. A lot of people will "lock themselves in" when they apply for their 1st drivers licence. But how many people do you show your drivers license to? If journalists want to know somebody's birthday, they'll usually do exactly what you would do - just ask the person. If they think something is fishy they might try to double check - but this might come down to checking a self-reported birth year in an autobio. At best a journalist on the street might say something like "Can I see your drivers licence - I just want to be sure of the spelling." So sooner or later most reported birth dates are self-reported, though it gets fairly difficult to lie as you get older. Smallbones(smalltalk) 17:25, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- There will probably be less ambiguity over ages in the U.S. now that a social security number (based on birth certificate) is required for parents to claim a tax exemption/earned income tax credit/child tax credit. I think this was phased in between 1987 and 1992. ☆ Bri (talk) 21:09, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think there's much surprising about it. Reasons include vanity, which is very common especially in the performing arts, simply not knowing the circumstances of one's own birth, which applies to many orphans, and lying about one's age in order to gain legal rights, which can occur either way depending on whether one wants to be treated as an adult or a child. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:37, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
- That is sure a very cute picture to represent Haebler though, with a boy dressed up as Mozart -Gouleg🛋️ harass/hound 14:38, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
Will note that it would have been viable if the UK Old Style calendar had been in use (so today would have been 3 January 2021/2).
I have come across a few other calendar anomalies on Wikipedia and elsewhere. Jackiespeel (talk) 20:28, 3 January 2022 (UTC)