Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2015-06-03/Blog
Latest comment: 8 years ago by The ed17 in topic Bruce Jenner was a man
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Bruce Jenner was a man edit
- I don't care. I will never get Wikipedia to change this but I will always take the position that during the time he was actually a man, Bruce Jenner was a man and anything he did should be referred to with male pronouns.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:07, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Agree. I think we sacrifice too much for MOS:IDENTITY, which may lead to unencyclopedic things like "she competed in men's decathlon" or "she played John Doe in the film John Doe". Looks like at this moment the only reasonable solution is referring to such people by their last name. Brandmeistertalk 10:11, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Why would that be considered "unencyclopedic"? Kaldari (talk) 21:23, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- But the guide should be what reliable sources say, not what our personal position on gender identity is. Liz Read! Talk! 08:46, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- What if those reliable sources are out of date? What if those reliable sources contradict BLP? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 18:44, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY specifically addresses that: "Wikipedia favors self-designation, even when usage by reliable sources indicates otherwise." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skyerise (talk • contribs)
- And that's my point. ;-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 21:12, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY specifically addresses that: "Wikipedia favors self-designation, even when usage by reliable sources indicates otherwise." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skyerise (talk • contribs)
- What if those reliable sources are out of date? What if those reliable sources contradict BLP? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 18:44, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- But the guide should be what reliable sources say, not what our personal position on gender identity is. Liz Read! Talk! 08:46, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- Why would that be considered "unencyclopedic"? Kaldari (talk) 21:23, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Agree. I think we sacrifice too much for MOS:IDENTITY, which may lead to unencyclopedic things like "she competed in men's decathlon" or "she played John Doe in the film John Doe". Looks like at this moment the only reasonable solution is referring to such people by their last name. Brandmeistertalk 10:11, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Interesting the mind set of those wanting to be encyclopedic but forget the human aspect of what they are covering. This is one of the reasons why Wikipedia has a hard time retaining editors. People are not respected in a manner that is both encyclopedic and sensitive to those living people involved. It is a criticism of Wikipedia that is not that far off base.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:17, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- We are writing for a broader audience, not only for people familiar with Wiki arcana, like MOS. A 12-year-old reader has every right to believe that prior to one's transgender transition he/she was referred to via different pronoun. In my opinion, that part of MOS should be amended accordingly. It's not our job to tamper with history by extrapolating it backwards by default without explicit notice of the person in question. If a transgender person hasn't mentioned any preference as to how he/she wants to be referred to in the past, then so be it. Brandmeistertalk 08:13, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- "We are writing for a broader audience, not only for people familiar with Wiki arcana, like MOS". Of course, just as journalist use a manual of style book and do not write for those familiar with it. Readers have is an expectation of getting accurate information. Whatever is decided, it should never be about anything but accurately covering the subject and doing so within our stricter adherence to BLP policy.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:03, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- We are writing for a broader audience, not only for people familiar with Wiki arcana, like MOS. A 12-year-old reader has every right to believe that prior to one's transgender transition he/she was referred to via different pronoun. In my opinion, that part of MOS should be amended accordingly. It's not our job to tamper with history by extrapolating it backwards by default without explicit notice of the person in question. If a transgender person hasn't mentioned any preference as to how he/she wants to be referred to in the past, then so be it. Brandmeistertalk 08:13, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- If SHE competed in Men's Decathlon, SHE should be disqualified. He was a he when he competed, and that's that.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 17:45, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- I think that the question which may be waiting to be asked relates to the extent that Jenner internally identified as being a woman or a man. If she felt like a woman trapped in a man's body (and still eligible to compete) then this sounds fine to me but should, in some way be cited. If he felt like he was then a man and even if he had preference to be/become a woman then the male pronoun certainly fits. My gut reaction is that we shouldn't categorise all histories of trans women in the same way.
- Imagine a person who is biologically clearly of one particular sex and yet, say, is a cross dresser and identifies with the opposite or their biological gender. In these cases, she or he could certainly be restricted to performing in male or female events according to biology but this would have no relevance to the gender identity of that person as that individual person perceives it. GregKaye 11:44, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- If SHE (by gender identity) competed in the Men's Decathalon (as a biological male) then SHE has done nothing wrong. For any of a variety of reasons she may have preferred to have competed in the women's event but these events go by biology at birth. As to the opening statement "
Bruce Jenner was a man
" I would agree that he or she certainly was. GregKaye 11:50, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- If SHE (by gender identity) competed in the Men's Decathalon (as a biological male) then SHE has done nothing wrong. For any of a variety of reasons she may have preferred to have competed in the women's event but these events go by biology at birth. As to the opening statement "
- The consensus by those that are trans is overwhelmingly against you. I am grateful that the policy on Wikipedia, and other Wikimedia projects, is to follow the route of dignity and respect for the person and prefer their self-identification, however that pans out. It's a good thing.
--Fæ (talk) 13:04, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
