Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 1

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Initial thoughts

Good to see an NBA project up, and hopefully soon running well. I'd definitely make the priority getting boxes like the Spurs one on every page. Also, I really don't like the mentions of rivalries on pages. This is pretty POV. From a neutral NBA fan's perspective (no team, just love the game), I'd say the only real rivalry in NBA history was Lakers-Celtics in the 1980s. These change quickly (currently the only one is everyone v. Duncan, and maybe Shaq v. Kobe). These should all be cut from the articles. Also, try to get a little template to lead people to the project from NBA-related talk pages. Nice start though. Harro5 July 8, 2005 02:23 (UTC)

We might disagree about the rivalries, but I fully agree with you on the need to standardize the NBA team articles. I hereby add my name to the WikiProject for the National Basketball Associaton :). King July 8, 2005 03:20 (UTC)

It says in the Playoffs section of the NBA page "Although the playoff brackets are not reseeded, home-court advantage is based strictly on regular-season record, without regard to whether a team won its division." This surely is no longer the case as the winner of a division is now guaranteed a playoff spot. --NBA-Forum.net 20:54, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

The winner of each division is guaranteed a top-3 seed, but now homecourt advantage isn't based on seeding, it is based on which team has the better regualr-season record. For example, if some team wins the Atlantic Division with a dismal record, for example (45-37), and earns the 3rd seed, but some other team gets the 6th seed with a record better than (45-37), the 6th seed will get homecourt advantage. In this case, homecourt advantage would've been decided solely on the regular-season record and not on whether or not the team won its division. King 07:48, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

...as happened this year with the Nuggets/Clippers.  :-) ---Kermitmorningstar 06:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Championship articles

Comment: don't mess with timestamps. Format is "%H:%i, %d %M %Y". Correcting July 8, 2005 07:18 (UTC); 03:48, July 10, 2005 (UTC); 09:18, August 31, 2005 (UTC) Pldx1 (talk) 11:18, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

I would like to see articles on the individual championship series in the NBA. All of the other major American leagues have articles on them; I don't know why the NBA doesn't. I don't think I'll be able to contribute to these very well, but I'm just putting this up as a suggestion. bob rulz 07:18, 8 July 2005 (UTC)

That may take some time, but that is a terrific idea! Just like the 2005 NBA Finals article. That's a long term goal we should keep in mind for this project. Dknights411 03:48, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I've been trying to write/expand the 2004 NBA Finals article to match the 2005 one's substantial size. The 2001 NBA Finals, 2002 NBA Finals, 2003 NBA Finals and 2004 Finals articles should all be relatively easy to create and/or expand because they all have official NBA-hosted websites still online. King 09:18, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

History vs Current Information

One thing that I did with the Portland Trail Blazers page is to move the team history information (I contributed quite a bit of stuff) into it's own page--mainly because I got the "32k limit" warning. There's a lot of history 'bout the Trail Blazers. On the main page I try to use mainly the present tense.

Comments on this editorial approach?

Also, there are a lot of NBA personalities who are still red links...

[User:EngineerScotty 7/8/05 10:43 PDT]

I like that approach, although I still can't believe you chronicled the history of the Blazers in two pages while teams like the Lakers and the Kings don't have a thing yet!!! My hats off to you. Dknights411 04:29, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Just a note. According to the NBA's official web site for the Philadelphia 76ers, their predicessors, the Syracuse Nationals were founded in 1939, and were a charter member of the National Basketball league in 1946. NoseNuggets 1:13 US EST Nov 2 2005.

I just finished looking at the New York Knickerbockers page, and the near end of the article is filled with various updates, but some of them are speculations, such as the future of Knicks coach Larry Brown. I think we should discourage people from writing speculation in the history sections and only add actual occurrances. (e.g. Do not add or cite sources that suggest that Larry Brown could resign, accept a buyout, get fired, etc. Do enter information once it occurs; if Larry Brown does leave the Knicks for some reason, add it only once it occurs.)

DaDoc540 04:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Current roster templates

I was thinking if we made the current roster section of each team into a template, fans would be more likely to have the template for their team on their user page and would be more likely to keep the information up to date (rather than one of us). Does anyone agree? If so, I can work on getting it started. KSchutte 22:40, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree 100%! Can't wait to see it. Dknights411 04:33, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

These should all be uniform too. The Lakers page lists height and weight, but I much prefer the more standard position, number, name, college, and flag look. The flag thing also adds a bit of color to the generally text-dominated NBA team pages. Harro5 03:16, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

How does this rank for style and ease of editing? KSchutte 22:10, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

You did a good job here! Style-wise, it could use a few tweaks, but for editing purposes, it's very simple. We should get these tables put on as soon as possible (but we have to rename the template first of cousre). Dknights411 23:35, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Very nice. My only thoughts: don't see why you need the team name mentioned in the bottom right. The templates will only be placed on the team articles, so these will link to pages already open. Also, I don't know if it's possible to add the team logo to the top right corner or something, just to add some color. But a bery, very nice job. Harro5 00:20, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

The reason I put the link to the team page down in the corner is because (as explained above) I'm hoping fans will put these templates on their user page so they can keep them edited instead of us here at the project. Additionally, I think when we finish we can put the templates together on the currently very shabby looking List of current NBA players. KSchutte 01:08, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I used the model above to create Template:Toronto Raptors. It has been inserted into the Toronto Raptors article. Harro5 00:55, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

I just finished doing the same on the Spurs page, although I left out some of the bottom parts for now. This is turning out to be a pretty efficient way to keep all the NBA rosters updated. Dknights411 03:25, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

I've done them for my teams, the Boston Celtics and the Sacramento Kings. KSchutte 16:24, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I've looked at different teams rosters and none have the same exact template. Some have Unsigned Draft Picks some have Capatians etc. I think we should make a universal system. C=Captain FA= Free Agent DP= Unsigned Draft Pick. This will be on every team's chart even if they don't currently have a Captain, Free Agent, or Unisned Draft Pick. BryanAtkinson 20:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Current Starters & Other player lists

[I copied this discussion from Talk:Milwaukee Bucks. Please add comments. mtz206 21:18, July 13, 2005 (UTC)]

While Bogut is very very likely going to be a starter, it seems premature to list him as a "current" starter. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. --mtz206 23:55, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

• I think you have a decent point. However, if you were to call the Bucks I think they would say Bogut would be starting. The Bucks starting lineup could be all over the place with the addition of Bobby Simmions in a few days. You could replace it with a question mark, but I think you're going to have to go fix that after the first game. --Grassferry49 23:55, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I know – the problem becomes the fact that you simply can't provide a true "starting lineup" for any team in the off-season, and the starting lineup changes from night to night during the season itself. So, I wonder what value it has for an encyclopedia article in the first place. Perhaps just having the current roster is sufficient. (This also spills into my dislike of "gone but not forgotten" category – at some point this list will include any previous player of one's liking....) mtz206 12:10, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I personally wouldn't mind seeing both sections rethought. Perhaps a change is in order? A good place to debate this more would be on the NBA Project they now have going. Grassferry49 21:48, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I would agree that it is hard to keep an up-to-date starting roster for each team. I would propose just listing the rosters, as suggested above. That's exactly what you find on the NBA team sites, but then at least it'll have links to player articles. I also agree that the "Gone but not forgotten" section is shaky ground. For a team like the Lakers this section includes guys like Shaq and Byron Scott – important guys – but then Memphis mentions Bryant Reeves!?! This guy isn't gone and not forgotten, he's just walked off the face of the earth. We need to think up some criteria – maybe they have to have an article if they're a post-1980 player, and they have to have done something (All Star, lead league in points, Championship team starter, etc.). This should be discussed and a set criteria developed. Harro5 03:14, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

I propose something like this:

To be in the "Gone but not forgotten" section, or some other equivalent section, of an NBA team article, a player must fulfill at least two of the following requirements:

- Been a team captain for the team

- Led the team in one of the three major statistics (PTS, REB, AST)

- Played for the team at least two full seasons, barring injury or suspension

- Was voted to the NBA All-Star Game while playing for the team

- Was an important contributor (i.e., a team starter or one of the first three men off the bench assuming 8-man rotation) for the team when it won a championship

I'm trying to take into account the many things a player can do – as a team leader, as an important contributor on the court, as a stabilizing influence as a veteran with the team- I'm pretty sure there are numerous exceptions and loopholes in the above requirements, but any ideas? How does it look right now? King 09:55, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Current activity

I think it would be good if we added a "Current activity" section to the Project's main page, as it would allow people passing through to see what we're up to and also tell members what they can do and what others are currently doing. It would be a good idea to add some sort of prioritsed list (eg. the current rosters templates as our #1 at present, as well as raising our profile) so that someone who joins our cause doesn't try to start writing the history of the finals on their own and end up leaving because it was too much work. Thoughts on this? I'll start a bit of a list – feel free to tweak it. Harro5 23:58, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

Shot Heard Around the World

Hi, I went looking for the above in Wikipedia a while ago and couldn't find it anywhere, but I just found a offhand reference to it in the Chicago Bulls article, which doesn't really make it any clearer (although I assume it was a series winning shot after the buzzer). From outside the US where I am, it's not widely known about, but is of interest- I thought it referred to a baseball game and yet I'm a basketball fan! Could someone who knows more either make a page for it, or a clear explaination within an existing appropriate page? Coyote-37 10:51, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

The "Shot Heard 'Round the World" in terms of sports refers to New York (now San Francisco) Giants player Bobby Thompson's Home Run that beat the Brooklyn (now Los Angeles) Dodgers in 1951. The win gave the Giants the National League pennant (hence the famous call "The Giants win the pennant!"). The phrase in terms of basketball has been used numerous times (Jordan over Ehlo in 89, Christian Laettner's game winner in 92 for Duke, John Paxon's shot in 93, even Robert Horry's game winner against Sacramento in 2002). The use of the phrase varies amoung fans in basketball. Hope that helps you out a bit.Dknights411 17:32, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Dknights411, that's cleared things up for me, very helpful! Though Wikipedia itself still doesn't make it all that clear, unless people stumble on this talk page! Maybe 'Shot Heard Round the World' should be a redirect page to the 1951 World Series, or Bobby Thompson's page? Coyote-37 09:42, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Greatest Moments

I was writing the above comment when it hit me that the NBA should have a list of memorable moments article. Anyone else think this is a good idea? Dknights411 17:32, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Murky POV territory, no? It would be hard to say what was memorable and what wasn't. I mean, in five years will anyone still remember Tayshawn Prince's running rejection on Reggie Miller in the 2004 playoffs? Does anyone still remember it now? Harro5 07:49, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

I was mainly talking about moments like Jordan over Ehlo, or Wilt's 100 points, or Havelcieck's (sp?) steal. I wasn't implying anything from the past few seasons yet, but maybe down the road. But if it'll be a potential POV problem, then it's better not to go ahead with this. I'm just trying out a few ideas though.Dknights411 02:21, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Has there been a fan vote on NBA.com to decide a list, or another credible organisation like ESPN? If so, this list could be used and cited to ensure it wasn't just Wikipedia editors deciding what was memorable and what wasn't. Harro5 07:23, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Apparantly, NBA.com's history section has a nice little section of "Greatest Moments". Here's the link Dknights411 03:47, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

That would seem to say to me that we don't really need to replicate such an indepth article. Maybe just add that link to the NBA article, and focus on other uncovered basketball areas. Harro5 07:26, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Main Rivals

I think we should come up with a final decision on "Main Rivals" on the team articles. Harro5 brought up some POV issues above, and I think "Main Rivals" on the individual team not only makes a page vulnerable for POV issues, but it also makes pages more vulnerable for vandalism, case in point, listing almost half the league as one team's "Main Rival". Personally, I'd like to see the "Main Rivals" on the team pages go. But what do you guys think? Dknights411 02:21, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

At most, we should have historical rivalries information, like the various decades that were Lakers-Celtics or Bulls-Pistons (90s) or Lakers-Kings (not so much anymore). If we do this, we should list the specific seasons in which they had been strongest rivals. (For example, the Lakers page looks really funny with the Celtics being their main rival. Sure once, but now neither team is impressive.) KSchutte 03:08, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Nice thought. But first, we've got to make sure all the team's history sections are as complete as possible. Dknights411 05:13, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

I prefer to see them go. Some teams don't have rivals, most rivalries come and go (Lakers-Kings, Heat-Orlando), and there is just no real need to try and guess which team others look forward to playing most. It isn't really encyclopedic, and a rivalry like the Lakers-Celtics 1980s battles should just be mentioned in the history section. That's just my thoughts. Harro5 07:26, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

I concur with Harro5 on this one-- it's hard to define which teams are rivals and which ones aren't. Is every division opponent a rival, or does it require several playoff meetings? Are the Pacers and Knicks still rivals despite the recent disparity in winning percentage? All sorts of boondoggles that could get us into. ekedolphin 02:52, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, how's this for a solution to the whole "Main Rivals" problem?

1. No mention of "Main Rivals" on the team General Information table.
2. Any mention of any rivalries, past or present, should be listed in a "Noted Rivalries" section at the end of the "Team History" section of the team article.

Anyone else think that's a good idea? Dknights411 00:11, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, sorta. My only question is the criteria for present rivalries, and afterwards how a rivalry would be considered "past" and thus more fairly judged as a notable rivalry or not. Or is all this something to be agreed upon by masses of the team's fans in the present and future?King 10:03, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Big Day!

Well, everyone, today's the day that the moratorium on player movement ended, and people are now signing with new teams and being traded by their older ones. It's been said, but please bear in mind that we should only update the rosters if it's official-- please check the team's page on NBA.com before changing anything. We should also remember that, obviously, when one team signs a free agent, another team has lost him-- so that team's roster page also needs to be updated. And we need to go into that player's page and change the necessary information, as well as add him to that team category.

It's gonna be a lot of redundant busywork, but I know we can accomplish it together! ekedolphin 00:07, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

NBA Seasons list

Here's an idea. I was thinking that we create seperate articles that chronicles the history of the NBA season by season, like a 1990-91 NBA Season article, a 1991-92 NBA Season article, and so on. Any thoughts?

Incredibly ambitious, incredibly comprehensive and incredibly hard to do... I like it! King 06:56, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I did a quick summary of this past season, and this coming season hopefully as template for all the other seasons. Last Year and This Year. As of right now, all seasons from 1997–98 to now are up. If you have additional information, suggestions, partaning to these seasons, please feel free to contribute. Dknights411 03:32, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

NBDL

A while back I tried to do some stuff on some of the NBDL pages, but I typically don't have enough time. I know the league isn't of great interest to many people, but it could become a larger part of the sports world, especially if it is expanded into a full and true minor league system like Stern wants. Any chance this could be incorporated into this WikiProject? Most of the pages could use some major work.

EWS23 | (Leave me a message!) 04:03, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Technically, the NBDL is a part of the NBA since they created it in the first place. I think we can work with the D-League. Anybody else agree? Dknights411 04:11, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

WikProject Basketball

WikiFanatic started Wikipedia:WikiProject Basketball just recently and some users of this project suggested that it should be merged with this one. Though I recognize the importance of the NBA to basketball all over the world, I don't feel that such requests are really reasonable. Basketball is a popular sport all over the world and starting a general, truly international project sounds like a very good idea to me. I urge all of the participants of this project to try encourage WikiFanatics initiative instead of asking him to conform to the rather more limited scope of this project. This doesn't mean that more specific projects don't have a place on Wikipedia, but they should definetly not try to assimilate those that aim to have a broader scope.

Peter ^Isotalo 19:42, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Players' careers

I don't know if this is the best place where to post, but I've noticed that on players' personal pages you always refer to past European teams with the nations (eg: a player who came from Virtus Bologna -> came from Italy) and not with the club names. Basketball players like Olowokandi or Doc Rivers haven't mentions about their experiences with italian teams and this is for the most part of the players (Russians, Serbians, generally all players with European experiences). I think it would be better to fix this, respecting European fans (I would remember you that even more teams are signing European leagues players) and to the information that will be more complete (="there isn't only the NBA!"). Unfortunately I'm not so expert to fix all the players. Sorry for my English, I'm Italian.

(it was me -> --necronudist 16:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC))

All NBA Teams

Buying an Italian magazine I've found an year-by-year list of 5 players who's intended to be the "best players' roster of the year" in every NBA season (from 1946–47 to 2004-05). There are also "all rookies teams" from 1962–63 to 2004-05). I haven't seen anything about that in NBA articles, so my question is: are this some sort of official rosters or are they only the suppositions of the magazine? (there isn't written if are official rosters or magazine's). If they're official I can wiki them. (or, if the "NBA seasons year-by-year" project will begin they could be part of it). Let me know! --necronudist 15:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

You go through [1] and in the Awards winner section, there is the official list of all the all-NBA teams, even the all Defensive team. Hope that helps. Dknights411 16:33, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes it is! So it's official...I haven't found any reference in the wikipedia, so I can start new pages like "All-NBA Teams", "All-Rookie Teams" and "All-Defensive Teams"... can I? (sorry but i'm a newbie... it would be my first contribute, I'm very cautious) --necronudist 16:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course you can start these pages! gurulegend 05:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Players' templates request

I've added the player career and trade report to Alaa Abdelnaby (d'you like them? found'em useful?) and I'm planning to do it for many other players. I was wondering if there are some templates who can make easier and standardized my work. More generally: can someone create a template to apply to all NBA (maybe also one for non-NBA) players? --necronudist 21:46, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

• Very good, very straight forward and simple. I think this is a model to be used elsewhere. Harro5 21:52, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
• Great stuff – I'd wholeheartedly approve of this template being used for all basketball player articles here. Fosse8 13:33, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

ABA

Although it isn't strictly an NBA matter, I'd really like to do some serious work on the ABA team pages. I've already cleaned up a couple of the articles, but I'd like to develop a template along the same lines as for the NBA teams; what do you think? The main problem is the number of relocations; I like the approach of the Pittsburgh Pipers article which covers the entire life of the franchise, including years they weren't called the Pipers and even when they didn't even play in Pittsburgh. If I could use the NBA team template, with the different colours and stuff, to illustrate the different periods in the team's evolution it might make articles like that a lot less confusing. Fosse8 13:33, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

disambiguation of common names

I noticed that players with common names are disambiguated differently. To avoid red links and duplicate articles, I'd like to see this standardized. Examples of the various conventions in use include:

• Larry Johnson (basketball) – this seems to be most common.
• Sam Mitchell (basketball coach), though I assume he will be remembered best as a player for the T'Wolves.
• David Robinson (basketball player) – good, but what if he becomes a coach?
• Frank Williams (NBA player) – ditto.
• James Edwards (NBA) – brevity is good, but might be bad to use for those who previously played professional basketball outside the NBA, such as...
• Andrei Kirilenko (athlete), which seems silly when there is no mention of Kirilenko playing other sports.
• Randy Smith (basketballer) – semantically more accurate than "(basketball)" because it clearly describes a person, but I have not seen this term in widespread use anywhere. Is a coach also considered a "basketballer"... I don't know.

and even...

• Cliff Robinson (basketball player born 1966) – use his middle name, maybe? Or maybe move him to Clifford Robinson (basketball) because I assume he is more notable than the currently red-linked Cliff Robinson (basketball player born 1960)? Or maybe one was primarily known as "Cliff" and the other as "Clifford"? I dunno.

Of course the most notorious basketball-related naming confusion involves these three:

• Jayson Williams who killed his chauffeur.
• Jason Williams ("White Chocolate") – I moved him from "Jason Chandler Williams" to Jason Williams (basketball) because I've never heard him called by all three names and the latter space was unoccupied. This was only possible because...
• The other Jason Williams agreed to be called "Jay Williams", but Jay is at Jay Williams (basketball) to avoid confusion with other people named Jay Williams.

Anybody else care to weigh in on this?

— FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 15:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Finally someone who take care of this stuff! I thought I was the only so mad. I think it would be better to redirect all the (basketball player), (NBA), (basketballer) etc to a more "neutral" (basketball) to avoid disambiguations between coaches, staff, players, and so long. Agree with Clifford Robinson, there's already a summary page of Cliff Robinsons...so it's a perfect solution I think. Great work with Jason Williams. If you wanna improve/change some other mistakes or stuff like this I'm here to help. Waiting for other comments. --necronudist 17:22, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the input. If nobody else responds within a few days, I'll start changing them all to "...(basketball)" because quite a few players do pursue other basketball-related jobs after retiring as players. I'll try to do research on "the other Cliff[ord] Robinson" in the meantime. I actually had never heard of until today. — FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 17:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I always had the notion that "... (basketball)" was standard. I agree with that naming convention. The Cliff Robinson case is a difficult one- I've seen fan mail wondering how Cliff Robinson had a great year in 1980 when he was only 14. I propose using the [www.basketball-reference.com] convention of naming the younger one "Clifford Robinson" and the older one "Cliff Robinson" ([2]). The alternative would be to distinguish between Clifford Trent Robinson (1960) and Clifford Ralph Robinson (1966). King 04:56, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree that (basketball) is the best option. Like you said, (basketballer) may be preferrable if it were in common usage, but that also seems to imply that they are a player in my mind. (basketball) should be pretty comprehensive for players, coaches, etc. Thanks for trying to standardize it! EWS23 | [[User_talk:EWS23|(Leave me a message!)]] 07:42, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok. here I go. — FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 07:01, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I've made some progress (see Freakofnurture/disNBAguation) but my connection keeps timing out. Others wishing to help can check the links to the right of each line and update the pages to bypass redirects. — FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 10:04, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion#November 17 --necronudist 11:57, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

External links to current statistics

Jorje29 has added hoopsstats.com fantasy statistics links to all or almost all of the player and team articles. Is this desireable? I would argue that one stats link is enough for an article, but I'm not a fantasy player. What are other opinions? --DDerby-(talk) 08:05, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I would say get rid of them, even though they do have a lot of useful statistics. Gflores ^Talk 02:49, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

External Links- Fansites/Self Promotion

Im just wondering if there is any criteria before deleting/adding external links to fan sites. After visiting a couple of teams I noticed that most fan sites seem to be self promotion with little or no new content being updated and no user-base or any vital information. Is it fine to just leave them on or better to delete them?

• I would delete them. If the site is not being updated, then what's the point?Dknights411 04:01, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

New Team Infobox

In case you haven't noticed, there is a new, more streamlined infobox available that was first posted on the Seattle SuperSonics page. To whoever set this up, JOB WELL DONE!!! We should use this template on all the team pages. Dknights411 06:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

External links

I just noticed User:Alakazam adding www.sportsecyclopedia.com links to each basketball team article. He/she isn't a new user nor has past behavior of spamming, (also the site has a decent Alexa rating – 141,000). But, I don't like the mass adding of links, as it has the appearance of spam. What's your thought on adding this link the the articles? Worth including? or not?

I also think many of the other links in the team articles look no more informative and useful than sportsencyclopedia, and might be worth trimming. See External links guidelines and WikiProject Spam for more information on the guidelines and ongoing efforts. Thanks. --Aude (talk | contribs) 20:17, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I say revert this. Google gives zero "link: -site:" results. Yahoo gives zero "link:" and "domainlink:" results. According to Alexa the top referrer is Wikipedia itself. AFAICT it gains more being here than Wikipedia. --Perfecto 20:35, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

AfD of interest to NBA fans/wikipedians

I would encourage members of this wikiproject to check out the following AfD, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of NBA Drafts. Maybe the list deserves to go, maybe it doesn't. But as of now, i dont think any members of this project have voted thus far. Whether you agree with my comments on the AfD or not, wikipedia as a whole would benefit from your opinion. Cheers. Youngamerican 21:17, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Articles for the Wikipedia 1.0 project

Hi, I'm a member of the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-class, B-class, and Good articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Can you recommend any suitable articles? Please post your suggestions here. Thanks a lot! Gflores ^Talk 17:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Added Dallas Mavericks History Page to WikiProject

I took a moment to add History of the Dallas Mavericks to the WikiProject, if any of you would like to take a look at. It was an article that I contributed significantly to through the mid-'90s (though I did so back when the history page was still part of the main Mavericks article), and I'm very pleased with how it's progressed.

Not to pat myself on the back or anything.  ;) ekedolphin 21:26, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Coach succession boxes

Kudos to whoever started the coach succession boxes. I've added numerous ones, and at least three teams are complete (Portland, Seattle, and Orlando). In many cases, I also created articles on NBA coaches who didn't have one (and was surprised to find that several NBA notables, including Frank Layden and Stu Jackson, didn't have articles at all!). In some cases, articles were created for guys like Bill Berry (basketball) (who coached the Bulls for two games) who are otherwise not very notable--but I think if you are a head NBA coach for even a single game, that confers notability.

A few comments/questions:

• I've labelled coaches who are interim coaches (and who are not hired full-time) with the (interim) tag in the info-boxes, i.e. Kevin Pritchard. Coaches who are initially interim coaches, but who get the job on a full-time basis, are not labelled as interim, i.e. Rick Adelman.
• Should we demarcate player-coaches?

--EngineerScotty 22:44, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll post a list of teams which have complete coach box chains (meaning every head coach has an article, even if just a stub, and a chain of succ boxes lead from the initial coach to the current one) on the project page.

A big obstacle remains that lots of NBA head coaches do not yet have articles. --EngineerScotty 06:36, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Guideline proposal for NBA articles

Proposal

At the beginning of an article related to the National Basketball Association, spell out National Basketball Association instead of using NBA. (For the remainder of the article, feel free to use the acronym).

Reasoning

• Not all groups, such as English speakers outside of North America, may know what NBA stands for.
• NBA stands for other things, despite the basketball organization being the primary usage.
• Unlike NBA, National Basketball Association is self-descriptive, that is, one can see it is a basketball-related organization just by reading its name.

--jiy (talk) 21:51, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I think your proposal is a wonderful idea! ekedolphin 09:12, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

This is really a standard for all papers and such, so I agree wholeheartedly. Retropunk 08:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

All-NBA First and Second Team

I was looking through the NBA and did not find the All-NBA first team and All-NBA second team articles. I think it would be a good idea to create them. Also lists for each year and records (who has been most times, etc) would be useful Joelito 23:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a good plan. There is some All-NBA team info on the individual seasons pages, so that could be used as a starter. I'm all for this idea. What does everyone else think? Dknights411 00:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

See above --necronudist 16:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Player position chart

A new user, Mikebrand, has created a player-position chart for the Spurs which you can see at San Antonio Spurs#Player Positions. I think it looks really good, and adds a good bit of information to the page. What does everyone think about making this kind of box standard for all team pages? EWS23 | (Leave me a message!) 03:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I saw that too, and I think it's a good idea. However, it seems a bit off and disjointed in the article. Plus, it would be hard to apply this too the other team pages since other team's rotations aren't as solid as the Spurs or the Pistons (New York Knicks anyone?). I think it's a nice idea, but it doesn't quite belong in the article IMHO. Dknights411 03:33, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

In response to Dknights411 comments: I agree that the player position chart does seem a bit out of place in the current article. But I feel that is the case only because the remainder of the article is very historically oriented. Almost all of the content is of the type that could be found in a print publication that is updated yearly. One of the strengths of Wikipedia is that it can maintain currency. While it is interesting to know that Moses Malone played for the Spurs at some point, I think it is of more relevance to understand the current lineup. For example, Tony Parker and Nick Van Exel are both listed as Point Guards in the Roster, so why are they both on the court at the same time? According to the Player Position chart, Van Exel will occasionally play Shooting Guard. While that might seem obvious to an experienced basketball fan, information like this can be of relevance to three groups of people: 1) new Spurs fans who don’t know all the players well, 2) old Spurs fans who have never fully understood the positions and who plays which positions and 3) fans of other teams who are playing the Spurs and want a quick study.

I would argue that the article needs even more current information. For example, a Scouting Report could explain Bowen’s role as one of the best perimeter defenders in the league, Manu Ginobili’s tendency to play almost any position at any moment, Tony Parker’s practice of either running a play or driving to the basket, but infrequently taking perimeter shots. That type of info would be relevant to the same three groups mentioned above and would provide information that is not readily available in other sources (eg, espn, nba.com).

I agree that the current version of the chart would not work as well with a team that has a very variable starting lineup. It might be better to have another column heading such as Rotating (between Primary and Substitute). For the Spurs, Mohammed and Nesterovic could go into that column. For another team, several positions could have two to three players in that category. It might be worthwhile to develop such a chart for a team with a variable starting lineup to see how it works. I do think that if such a chart were implemented for all teams, the chart column headings should be consistent across teams.

Such a chart for each team could provide a quick understanding of the team. For example, the solid rotation of the Spurs or Pistons would be very apparent when contrasted with a team that has just one position with a Primary player. In this way, the chart serves as a Stability Chart. Or consider the 2003-04 Lakers whose chart would have 5 Primaries, 1-2 Substitutes and the remainder of the team would be Fill-in (that column probably needs a better heading). In this way, the chart serves as a Depth-Chart. Looking at the Spurs and the Pistons and their success, it is apparent that stability and depth are both valuable (more valuable than a bunch of future Hall of Famers).

--Mikebrand 13:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I could design a Template:Hoops depth-chart if the demand is great enough. — May. 30, '06 [06:37] <freak|talk>

I don't think it really adds much value, but the box could use some rework if it's to be kept. Retropunk 08:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

NBA Draft

I've been going through the old NBA Draft pages, many of which are either complete but not uniform to the newer pages, woefully incomplete, or missing altogether. Does anyone else think that it is a worthwhile endeavor to complete the entire Draft database and give it a uniform template? --fuzzy510 20:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be worthwile, but draft data, especially from the early years, might be hard to come by. However, I think that it is something we should look into. What does everybody else think?Dknights411 23:32, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

There are actually more than a couple of good sources out there to get the full draft information. Basketball-reference.com and NBADraft.net both have fairly extensive draft histories, which can be used to fill out the information. Some of the specific information for individual players might be hard to come by, but it probably won't be too hard to at least find enough to make stubs. --fuzzy510 23:56, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Basketball player infobox

I was surprised to see that there was no infobox for basketball players. I was also pretty WTF at the current "infoboxes" on some players – unwieldly and difficult to edit and mantain. Could someone create an infobox? I'm too casual – I wouldn't know what information to include. Hbdragon88 23:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Pro athlete is available, e.g. see Ray Allen. —jiy (talk) 23:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Tim Duncan has the same thing too. This should be the template to get the job done. Dknights411 23:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I've created Template:Infobox NBA Player. I think it looks a bit nicer than the other one. gurulegend 21:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Year in basketball & Template

I'm doing "years in basketball" similar to the "years in baseball". One such article is 2002 in basketball. The "year in basketball" is a way to access a yearly event for basketball at one location. I'm referencing your NBA Season pages to avoid duplication. Ray

Come opine...

... on this AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Amin Wright - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 13:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• I'd say delete. See notability talk below:

Notability proposal for (US) basketball players

Moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject NBA/US Basketballers Notability Proposal, expanded a bit.

Season-by-season

Hi. As you may have noticed, I kinda shot off on my own and started doing team season-by-season records all the way back to the start of the franchise. It's been bugging me that I had to search online in different places to find this info, so I'm putting it all here, where it belongs. I'm delineating NBA vs. non-NBA stats for totalling. I'm about halfway done with the teams by now. ---Kermitmorningstar 06:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• It may be worthwhile, but it should be quite neat since it can get painfully long. Retropunk 08:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• I've done my best to make it neat, based on the NFL template. Most of the teams are now done. It's good to see someone else working on this as well... I've been going through and cleaning them up for consistency. I'm not saying that my format is the best way; I'm just trying to make them all consistent. The GS Warriors page is going in a somewhat different direction; I'll leave it as is. But if we want to include GB for every team, we could make it as a separate column in the table. (Personally, I don't think the GB is nearly as important as the other columns. Playoff record is more indicative of the individual season.) Kermitmorningstar 18:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Major Rivalries to add

Boston Celtics vs. Philadelphia 76ers: The Sixers were one of the only two teams to prevent the Celtics to win ten consecutive championships and challenged them for the Eastern Conference championship numerous times. When Dr. J arrived in Philadelphia (after the ABA-NBA merger), the Sixers dueled the Celtics again, reaching the finals in 1982 and winning it all in 1983 (with Moses Malone's "fo', fo', fo'" becoming a "fo', fi', fo'").

Philadelpha 76ers vs. Los Angeles Lakers: The Sixers and the Lakers clashed in the Finals three times in the 1980s (1980, 1982, and 1983), with the Lakers winning the first two meetings and the Sixers sweeping in 1983. The rivalry was revisited in 2001 when the Allen Iverson-led 76ers stunned the Lakers in the first game at Los Angeles before the Lakers took the next four.

New York Knickerbockers vs. Minneapolis Lakers & Los Angeles Lakers: There existed a rivalry between the New York Knickerbockers and the Lakers (during both the Minneapolis and the Los Angeles eras). The Minneapolis Lakers and the New York Knicks met in the 1952 and 1953 Finals with the Lakers winning both confrontations.

By the time the Lakers moved to the Great Western Forum in Inglewood, California, the Knicks-Lakers rivalry took on different meanings: East vs. West, Broadway vs. Hollywood. In 1970, 1972, and 1973, the New York Knicks and Los Angeles Lakers met in the Finals. The Knicks won in 1970 (which featured Willis Reed's inspirational joining with his Knick teammates despite injury) and 1973, while the Lakers won in 1972 (the same year they posted a then-record in regular season wins-losses: 69-13).

Dallas Mavericks vs. San Antonio Spurs: These two Texas teams, Dallas always with Dirk Nowitzki, San Antonio always with Tim Duncan, have clashed in the postseason in 2001, 2003, and 2006. Recent key events include longtime Maverick Michael Finley joining the Spurs after being waived by the amnesty clause, the "biting incident" involving Robert Horry and Jerry Stackhouse, and the low punch by Jason Terry on Finley. Now that the Mavericks have defeated the Spurs in a postseason series (at San Antonio as well), this is certainly a rivalry.

Someone else mentioned about the Heat and the Pistons having a rivalry. Both teams have met in the postseason twice, splitting those series. The same can be said about the Dallas Mavericks and the Phoenix Suns, especially due to the fact that Steve Nash left the Mavericks to rejoin the Suns. In my opinion, if those teams of a pair meet again in the postseason or if something significant happens when they meet in the regular season (not necessarily with the magnitude of that of the Palace Brawl, but significant enough to have an impact), then we've got a rivalry.

If anybody is willing to spend some time researching, adding, and elaborating these rivalries on Rivalries of the NBA, feel free to do so.

DaDoc540 00:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

A couple of good points here, however, I have a few reservations about this concept of "rivalry", especially in the NBA. Take my San Antonio Spurs for example. It seems like the Spurs chief rival at a given point changes after every few seasons. It used to be Hakeem and the Rockets, then Malone and the Jazz, then the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, then the Pistons, now the Mavs (although I still don't consider them to bo our main rivals, they'll always be that ringless team up I-35 to me ;-) ). In the case of some of these teams, particularly the Jazz for example, they fall out of contention to the point that they are no longer legitimate rivals anymore, and they just become another team. I mean, are the Bulls and the Jazz still rivals since they met each other in back to back NBA Finals? And if so, what about the Sonics and the Wizards (former Bullets)? Not to discount the impact of the Lakers and the Celtics, but how significant is this rivalry today now that both franchises are mired in sub-mediocrity? The history of the NBA changes so fast that it's hard to establish long-lasting rivalries in my opinion. I mean, something will pop up that will be a storyline for a few years, but what about 10, 15 years down the road? I like the idea of recognizing these rivalries as part of NBA history, but I'm just not entirely sure what a 'rivalry' has to acheive to be listed on here. That's just my two cents though. Dknights411 01:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

template

Hey, I'm from WikiProject NBL. Just letting you know that I created at template called {{Infobox nbl player}}. Please feel free to rename this as NBA, and then do whatever you want with it. See the Brett Maher article for an example. Cheers, Jasrocks ^(talk) 11:54, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Team history

I looked at the history pages of the teams that said they should be updated but they look fine to me. Some of them have a lot more than others though. BryanAtkinson 07:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Foster, Jasikevicius, Wells

Someone's been adjusting the Kings and Pacers rosters to reflect a Jeff Foster/Sarunas Jasikevicius for Bonzi Wells trade. I haven't found any evidence to support the position that such a trade has been made, and indeed any articles I can find about Wells going to Indy have been of the position that it's not very likely, and that a trade for Al Harrington is much more likely. ekedolphin 05:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Kris Clack up for deletion

In case anyone was interested... Zagalejo 18:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• This AfD is an interesting one. It concerns a player who had a decent NCAA career (though no major collegiate awards), was drafted by an NBA team (2nd round), hasn't played in the NBA, and apparently has had a decent career for a top-division foreign pro team. Notable, or no? (And should we be making the judgement, or should this go to WikiProject Basketball, who may have a wider perspective on the notablity of foreign hoopsters (and American hoopsters who play overseas)? This is an interesting issue. I've seen lots of articles on foreign ballers who aren't notable outside their homeland (but highly regarded within), and I'm not about to suggest that none of these guys are notable unless the are NBA-worthy. My thoughts: If the Italians consider Kris Clack notable; I won't argue. He isn't notable based on his American hoops career, but having a notable career in any country in which he has played, or in his homeland, is sufficient for inclusion.
• Any other comments, BTW, on the US hoopsters notablity criteria above?
• --EngineerScotty 19:18, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

the main problem is that "notable" concept is ambigous (and totally ridicolous) like many other things here. and, however, you hit the point. --necronudist 19:23, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree; different people have different thresholds for notable. Most general-purpose print encyclopedias won't have articles for any basketballers except for HOF-worthy players, whereas we are not paper and thus can have articles about any NBAer, plus many others. However, we're not the white pages either (nor are we a basketball almanac--most basketball almanacs are primary sources which do original research), and so some threshold is useful to keep out ju-co benchwarmers, second string prep players, playground players who are legends in their own mind (or even in a particular neighborhood), etc. WP:V and WP:NOR help greatly--if we can't look up the player somewhere reputable, they don't get in--but were they the only critera, that would potentially mean that tens of thousands of NCAA players nobody has heard of (but whose exploits are documented by their uni's sports information department) would be eligible. Maybe that's OK; perhaps Wikipedia should expand and document all college players. But that would be a major shift in policy. --EngineerScotty 21:05, 16 July 2006 (UTC)