Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Martial arts/Kickboxing task force/Archive 2017

Kunlun Fight?

Curious about the status of Kunlun Fight when it comes to kickboxing in wikipedia/kickboxing task force. What I'd propose is for it to be treated on the level with Glory or K-1 when it comes to fighter or event notability etc.

They organize more high level events on a regular basis than any other promotion in kickboxing at the moment. ~Every show has world top10 level talent and is broadcast 2x/week on mainstream tv in China and on various different channels around the world.

In 2015 they ran probably the best 70kg tournament ever held (64-man) with names like: Sitthichai Sitsongpeenong (Rank: Liverkick 2/Combat Press 1), Marat Grigorian (Rank: Liverkick 6/Combat Press 7), Enriko Gogokhia, Enriko Kehl (Rank: Liverkick 9), Davit Kiria (Rank: Liverkick 3/Combat Press 8), Murthel Groenhart (Welterweight Rank: Liverkick 2/Combat Press 3), Andy Souwer, Yodsanklai Fairtex (Rank: Liverkick 6/Combat Press 5), Dzhabar Askerov (Rank: Liverkick 8/Combat Press 9), Superbon Banchamek, Amancio Paraschiv, Steve Moxon, Chingiz Allazov, Aikpracha Meenayothin, Mustapha Haida, Victor Nagbe, Jonay Risco, David Calvo, Dzianis Zuev etc.

They are currently in the middle of a 64-man 70kg tournament for 2016. This particular tournament in it's 3rd year, as a matter of fact, measured in the level of notable competition, prize money or anything else should be considered a notable thing in the sport.

Other notable names who participate regularly: Artur Kyshenko (won their 8-man 80kg tournament in 2015), Buakaw Banchamek (under exclusive contract), Jahfarr Wilnis (won their 16-man HW tournament in 2015). Rico Verhoeven (Rank: Liverkick 1/Combat Press 1), Simon Marcus (Rank: Liverkick 2/Combat Press 1), Hesdy Gerges and more have also fought on Kunlun Fight events.

Artur Kyshenko and Murthel Groenhart just fought on the last Kunlun Fight event. This is K-1 champion level, liverkick ranked 2 and 3 fighters fighting on an event that isn't Glory or K-1. If someone can explain to me how that is not notable in every possible way, have at it. They also agreed to a rematch, again happening on a Kunlun Fight event in the near future.

The kickboxing sites regularly post about the promotion: liverkick, kickboxingplanet, muaythaiauthority and any other active site covering the sport. Here is Forbes posting about their financing.

What happens on their events matters in the sport and so, in my opinion, should matter when it comes to wikipedia and documenting it.

Is there any reason for this promotion not to be clearly considered one of the highest level ones in the sport - if not the highest level one out there today?

ShadessKB (talk) 20:48, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

That seems pretty notable to me with it having regular and well known fighters and it has mainstream sources to suppport it. Dwanyewest (talk) 16:52, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

@ShadessKB: I think you make a pretty good case for an article - you are welcome to create one. Before you do let me explain what happened to the previous attempt. It was deleted by AfD which you can find at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/KunLun fight. That article was overly promotional (the bestest, biggest) with no supporting references, That one didn't even have fight results which would themselves not be enough to show notability. The author just kept reposting the same unacceptable article under various names which resulting in a salting of the various names. It didn't help that he was also being abusive and vandalizing other pages and got no sympathy. If you were to create the article you would have to go through the Article for creation process by creating it in Draft space. (Draft:Kunlun fight). My advice is to look carefully at other Kickboxing organization articles perhaps ONE Championship and definitely be careful with using over promotional language (I know what you were doing above was just to make the case).Peter Rehse (talk) 17:43, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

I'll probably have a stab at making the article, not a huge fan of creating them from scratch myself but will give it a go. What I'd still like someone to comment on is the overall status. In my opinion Kunlun should be considered a major promotion. For example it is entirely possible the 64-man 70kg tournament could be won by a fighter with no wiki page - yet winning the tournament wouldn't make him eligible for a wiki article as per the notability requirements. He would most likely have to beat notable, top10 ranked guys but because the fights aren't for a Glory or K-1 title they wouldn't qualify him in the wiki sense. That would make no sense. If someone could tell me why Kunlun wouldn't be eligible for "major promotion" status I'll argue the other side with references if needed.

An example of being on the level with Glory would be Glory 28: Paris. Every participant of the Lightweight Contender Tournament that directly leads to a Glory title fight have participated in Kunlun events. Makes no sense the realistic possibility of the exact same fights wouldn't be considered as notable on another promotion that's arguably bigger at this point. ShadessKB (talk) 20:33, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Don't forget the fact that WP:NKICK can also be met by being a top 10 ranked fighter by an independent source like liverkick or combat press. If the winner of the kunlun tournament bested several top 10 fighters as you hypothesize, then he likely would be top 10 ranked by independent publications. Certainly that has happened to other kickboxers. Papaursa (talk) 21:08, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Good point. Gogokhia almost did it in the last tournament, beat Kiria but lost an extra round decision in the finals to Sitthichai. Still that's not an argument on why Kunlun shouldn't be considered top tier. If nobody counters me proposing it to be included as such, can we eventually go ahead and add it? :) ShadessKB (talk) 21:43, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

I would suggest you first put together a solid article on KunLun before discussing its relative ranking to other organizations. In both MMA and kickboxing it usually takes time to show an organization can be considered in the top rank. Organizations tend to come and go frequently so I don't think there's a need to rush into anything. If Kunlun champions are consistently among the world's top kickboxers, then you should be able to make a good case on the merits of the organization--but try and get a good WP article first. Papaursa (talk) 00:42, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

I suggest the addition of Superkombat Fighting Championship and Kunlun Fight at least as major titles because we have:

• Glory - NO 1
• K-1 - old with tradition
• Superkombat - probably the largest promotion Europe, and the only in the world with an American contract alongside Glory and Bellator Kickboxing (CBS deal since 2017, penned for 2017-2018); top 3 kickboxing publications about Superkombat SUPERKOMBAT Elimination in Bucharest: Full Event Video and Results, Negotiations for America on KickboxingPlanet, Superkombat announces TV deal with CBS Sports Network on Combat Press and SuperKombat Inks New Partnership and Card for March 12th Event on LiverKick
• Kunlun Fight - the largest promotion in China, same level of investments like Glory
• Wu Lin Feng - the rival of Kunlun Fight in China
• Enfusion - a growing promotion in Europe, rival of Superkombat, although Superkombat held the Eurosport contract in Europe and now got offer from the US market

You need to understand Papaursa that Kunlun Fight is now investing as much as Glory, whilst Superkombat is putting shows since 2011 already with a 2004-2011 background in Local Kombat. Superkombat is just the continuation of Local Kombat. Almost 15 years for you, or 6 years if you want are not enough? Superkombat is the only promotion alongside Glory and Bellator Kickboxing with an "American" contract (on CBS since 2017, penned for 2 years already, with lots of planned events in the US in 2017 since they added new investors). Kunlun Fight on the other hand is the largest Asian promotion, bigger than K-1 now, which is investing as much as Glory. Honestly the rival of Kunlun Fight in Asia is now in Asia Wu Ling Feng, not K-1.

-hooyoo- (talk) 00:47, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Women in Glory and Bellator kickboxing?

How many fights do women have to have before becoming notbale in Glory or Bellator do they have to compete in a number of fights or compete for a title. I ask before I write about Irina Mazepa or Denise Kielholtz. Dwanyewest (talk) 01:52, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

I assume the notability is the same for women in Glory, fight for a title. Don't know how Bellator is regarded. I wouldn't have them considered for notability yet if the likes of Kunlun or WLF aren't.ShadessKB (talk) 10:50, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Dwanyewest There is Combat Press Womens pound for pound ranking, so if she is there I guess she must be notble. I have something about Kieholtz in my sandbox, feel free to use it. Link to my sandbox [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Master_Sun_Tzu/sandbox] User:Master Sun Tzu

Superkombat Fighting Championship, Kunlun Fight, maybe Wu Lin Feng and Enfusion titles should be notable (!)

I am not sure Glory of Heroes is qualified, World version W5 certainly not.

With all due respect, I already talked with Peter Rehse about changing the kickboxing rules and he is not allowing me or anyone to do it. I registered now to tell him and you. Many users reported that this is wrong. Superkombat Fighting Championship is probably the largest kickboxing promotion in Europe. Our mate Peter is confusing kickboxing with boxing. ISKA, WAKO-Pro, WKN and PKA are not like WBC, WBA, IBF and WBO in boxing. Sometimes, you can be 100th in the world and to hold an ISKA title. The major promotions in kickboxing created own titles, such as Glory, K-1, Superkombat and others. ISKA, WKN and WAKO-Pro are usually giving their titles in minor promotions of kickboxing. They are like bodies, but in kickboxing the promotions are not obliged to use them as titles. Kickboxing promotions are like UFC, Bellator and others of MMA. Do you understand that or not? Right now Superkombat Fighting Championship is the only European promotion that is available since 2017 in the United States of America with a CBS contract. Peter Rehse, please understand we need to change them, the rules should also include Superkombat Fighting Championship and Kunlun Fight (the largest promotions in Europe, respectively Asia). Do you help, Peter? Because there are no users anymore that usually participate on the Kickboxing Project of Wikipedia. So Cristian Spetcu is notable, all the champions of Superkombat are solid. It is pathetic for instance to have a bum holding an ISKA/WKN/WAKO-Pro title instead of a Superkombat/Kunlun champion. Do you want to give you examples? Lukasz Plawecki and Pawel Jedrzejczyk, newly created pages. They both fought in Glory at the last event Glory 38: Chicago on the undercard but really bad. They would probably never hold a title in Kunlun, and even Superkombat. You need to understand that things changed since many years ago when Wikipedia had a lot of kickboxing fans as users, and promotions like Superkombat and Kunlun Fight grew up. They are highly comparable with current K-1. At the moment, in the US we have Glory, Bellator Kickboxing and Superkombat (broadcasting contracts). And Kunlun Fight is almost investing as much as Glory, in Asia.

So we have:

• Glory - NO 1
• K-1 - old with tradition
• Superkombat - probably the largest promotion Europe, and the only in the world with an American contract alongside Glory and Bellator Kickboxing (CBS deal since 2017, penned for 2017-2018)
• Kunlun Fight - the largest promotion in China, same level of investments like Glory
• Wu Lin Feng - the rival of Kunlun Fight in China
• Enfusion - a growing promotion in Europe, rival of Superkombat, although Superkombat held the Eurosport contract in Europe and now got offer from the US market

-hooyoo- (talk) 00:33, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

I also agree. Holding the most important titles in Europe and Asia isn't notable enough? SUPERKOMBAT and Kunlun are the largest promotions now on their continents. ISKA, WKN, and WAKO-Pro are just shit. They are not promotions, they are giving titles in promotions in Zaire, Slovenia or Bosnia.

I think you aren't arguing the point very well (probably) posting to support yourself from a vpn. Generally speaking I think the current wiki notability requirements are extremely out of touch with the sport though.

I know these kind of changes could preferably use more than a couple users input, hopefully people participate in the discussion. I would suggest updating the WP:KICK athlete notability perhaps to something like:

-fought for a world title of a major promotion (K-1, Glory, Kunlun Fight), or

-before April 2017 (whatever exact date it would be?) - fought for a world title of an organization or a promotion (WMC, ISKA, WAKO-Pro, It's Showtime, WKN, WBC Muaythai, PKA, WKA) , or

-been a Lumpinee or Rajadamnern champion, or

-been ranked in the world top 10 by a major, preferably two, independent publication that meets the definition of a reliable source

This way there wouldn't be a massive wave of deleting prior pages that adhered to the notability requirements of the time, but going forward wikipedia wouldn't continue to be home for more in-reality non-notable kickboxers.

The current "major promotions" list is very clearly lacking by not having Kunlun Fight among them. 5 out of the 10 fighters on the Liverkick 70kg rankings are there from their fights in Kunlun Fight, 6 on Combatpress. Their current HW champion is the last fighter to beat Rico Verhoeven and fighters on the other weight class rankings are also present from their fights in Kunlun.

I would also possibly keep a door open for including Glory of Heroes titles that should be coming later in the year. They might be "WLF" titles though as that is kind of a regulatory body type organization, meaning titles in Wu Lin Feng would also have to be considered I guess. Glory of Heroes is basically made up of the (in my opinion) people from Wu Lin Feng that actually care for the sport and who aren't just there to make a nationalistic tv show. Couple notable fighters who mostly fight on Glory of Heroes would be for example Qiu Jianliang and Wei Rui, who just won the last K-1 tournament. Israel Adesanya also made his way to Glory from Glory of Heroes where he has fought Alex Pereira x2, Filip Verlinden and Bogdan Stoica. He also fought Yousri Belgaroui first in Glory of Heroes and shortly after in Glory, which just more goes to show these promotions are on at least comparable levels. Glory of Heroes fighters have been on the past 2 K-1 Japan GP's, another fighter will participate on the next one and Wei Rui is scheduled to again fight on K-1 in the future to defend his title. They are also cooperating with the people who run K-1 Japan on bringing their event in Japan in a few months.

As a note also Kunlun Fight and Glory of Heroes are both broadcast on multiple tv channels in China including 2 huge ~nationwide channels for both of them. Both have also had tens of millions of dollars invested in them. So they have the independently ranked fighters, they have notable mainstream media presence in China and if it matters they have the funding also. I don't think they should be kept out of the notable promotions due to what is basically laziness on wikipedia when they can meet any scrutiny put on them.

Personally I wouldn't include either Superkombat or Enfusion right now, looking at their current champions roads to the titles they don't contain especially notable opponents and who you fight for your titles should matter. Similarly as to why the various alphabet organizations titles shouldn't matter. Superkombat was more notable a few years ago and Enfusion champions outside ~70kg's aren't that notable. Having said that, they are still easily more notable than most of what qualifies currently so I wouldn't be too opposed to including Superkombat and Enfusion.

@PRehse:, @KINGFEDORQc:, @Mfnuf:, @Master Sun Tzu:, @Frenchcafe:, @Marajade75:, @Jimmy Peters:

ShadessKB (talk) 21:58, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Problem with promotions is that they make good job few years, than they FAIl. That is what happened with Superkombat. Last events are same as some local promotions... Last time someone even mentioned LEGEND promotion, they hel only few events... So Superkombat is far away from notable, even in it's prime we didn't accept it. Stoica brothers, Morosanu, Benny and other stars are not fighting there anymore. Organisations are other thing, they have tradition in this sport. Criterium for notable organisation was that they have 5 TOP 10 champions. We can not change it every year... Sometimes they have 1, sometimes 6... And Enfusion, I still don't agree that their champions are notable, as far as none is in top 10, and I am not sure are there 2 top 10 champions in their history, also SUPERKOMBAT, none in top 10 currently. So we could talk about Kunlun Fight, but this story is about SUPERKOBAT and NO, definietly NOT NOTABLE. It was close years before, now it is just local promotion with local champions, I guess none top 10. User:Master Sun Tzu

So, my oppinion:

• Glory - World leading promotion
• K-1 - Leading promotion in lower weight categories
• WLF - hmmmm... promotion with local hero Fang Bian
• Glory of Heroes - Hometown promotin with Yi Long
• Kunlun Fight - Maybe second best promotion, should be negotiated
• Superkombat - Failed promotion which lost all their superstars (Last event without any notable kickboxer *Ciobanu is not ntable)
• Enfusion - Rising promotion, if they continue like this they will certenly be notable one day, no hurries
• Final Fight Championship - Honorable mention, 2/5 champions are top 10 (Zhuravlev and Brestovac), you can expect Jason Wilnis in the future... so more notable than Superkombt right now

User:Master Sun Tzu

• • Does it seem unreasonable to forget about organizations, at least going forward, and just use the top 10 criteria? Papaursa (talk) 00:09, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Just to be clear, Glory of Heroes has basically nothing to do with Yi Long. He fought on "their" card once when they were still on the same tv channel as Wu Lin Feng (Henan TV) and were basically running as their big year ender event and Yi Long is something they do. They've since split and Glory of Heroes has all the good fighters who used to fight on Wu Lin Feng other than Fang Bian. WLF isn't really a promotion but a governing body or some such and yeah initials match with the promotion Wu Lin Feng, but they're different things.ShadessKB (talk) 00:20, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
    • Superkombat held a New Heroes, qualifying event in Bucharest, why do you confuse it with World Grand Prix Series? They didn't lose the Stoicas, they argued and replaced them with others with potential that are already top 10 or made debuts in Glory (Cedric Manhoef held the New Heroes titles for several fights, and is 6th lightweight in the world; why isn't he good, because he is less spectacular than the brothers and didn't have the same name? Like Kwasi, Paraschiv, Kryklia, Kongolo, Pereira, Marshall, Micheletti, Almeida and others) On the other hand Superkombat found new investors and will bring big names for America. You will see this season on CBS. So what if not all the seasons are the same anyway? 2017 will be again great, at the level of the greatest years. They are currently the oldest promotion in Europe.

According to Combat Press, the Promotion of the Year was K-1. Other finalists: GLORY, Kunlun Fight, Glory of Heroes, Enfusion, Superkombat and Krush.

About FFC, this is your opinion in Croatia but from all the European promotions only Superkombat is in the United States of America. For 2 years, the 1 year contract was extended according to the Romanian press. Still a top promotion in the world according to independent sources and beat Ultimate Glory (future Glory) and It's Showtime according to World Independent Promoters Union in 2011 winning the Best Promotion Award Of The Year. Zhuravlev was not even your champion or of Glory's, he made his name in Superkombat. Brestovac was a contender in Superkombat but lost of Londt and Adegbuyi. Mladen after K-1 so therefore before Glory and FFC, made a name in K-1 Collizion (events hosted by Eduard Irimia in Romania & Eastern Europe) and Superkombat.

You are making them champions of FFC like Enfusion is making a part of their champions, fighting against worse bums than of Moroșanu (Lazaar in Enfusion is an example). A name doesn't make a promotion, but its work over the years.

I respect you, the Croat scene and FFC, but I don't believe your championships are notable only if Wikipedia wants to make all these promotions at the same level. I wouldn't mind. Fighting for FFC title is sometimes more notable than for I.S.K.A / W.K.N / W.A.K.O Pro.

It's not fair to want recognition mocking other promotions and this is not even true. When you know Superkombat is producing talents, discovering new fighters since years, and that is getting biggest contract in Europe (Eurosport) and now is being the only European promotion with an American contract and you still comment... Some promotions come and go, Superkombat didn't! Where is Legend now?

I think Superkombat is the most qualified promotion after Glory and K-1 to have "notable" titles.

Setdany (talk) 16:45, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't think FFC is more notable than Superkombat either but Superkombat used to be more notable than it is today. They have clearly lost footing and that should be plain as day obvious for anyone to see who isn't related to the promotion. CBS Sports is a small channel, it really isn't that notable. FFC too was airing on CBS Sports for at least a few shows and nobody seemed to much care. Lazaar fought Wilnis and isn't the Enfusion champion anymore. Kunlun and Glory of Heroes are all easily bigger and more notable than Superkombat and as silly at times as they can be so is Wu Lin Feng. Anyway I think this discussion is going nowhere unless more people voice their opinions. In my opinion the alphabet organizations shouldn't make fighters wiki notable solely based on tradition and we could alter the list in the manner I suggested so as to not have to delete previously made pages. The China scene is being tragically undervalued in wikipedia when it's easily the center of the kickboxing world today with multiple mainstream tv channels airing the sport weekly and hundred+ million dollars in investments in the last couple years in the various promotions. If tradition matters then they have promotions that have ran 10+ years too in Wu Lin Feng and Hero Legends.ShadessKB (talk) 18:06, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Question about World Kickboxing Association

Guys, is WKA now WTKA? I see that owner is the same Michele Panfietti.

The WKA site is not working anymore http://www.wkaassociation.com/. And WKA logo has now karting on it. https://www.worldkarting.com/

I think that WKA was renamed into https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Traditional_Kickboxing_Association. It was born from PKA (same as WKA, so I think WKA is now WTKA?). Are both notable?

What do you say? I think WKA was requested by karting.

According to Wikipedia: "From last 29 September 2012 WKA has a new management: Michele Panfietti World President and Cristiano Radicchi General Secretary."

Now the WKA World Championships are called WTKA (WKA) Championships in the whole media.

http://wtkainternational.com/

Even the stamp has now WTKA for all WTKA, WKA, WCSA and IKF championships. http://combatsd.com/files/WCSA_FIGHTS-2016.pdf

So is WTKA notable and practically WKA? Or more likely WKA is WTKA.

Setdany (talk) 07:41, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Another question

Is the WKN International Championship qualified for notability? It's the same with a world title, right? Setdany (talk) 07:47, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Superkombat

Whole story is about it. Superkombat is just not notable, understand and accept it. I've red somewere here that made event in america... FFC made two in USA and this year they are going to do even more... That doesn't mean they are notable. Master Sun Tzu (talk) 06:47, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Do they have to have fight records

Do professional kickboxers have to have their fight records I feel alot of kickboxers particulary women such as Ekaterina Vandaryeva, Germaine de Randamie, Joanna Jędrzejczyk, Julie Kitchen don't have thier fight records on display and how do you create one? Dwanyewest (talk) 05:00, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Popular pages report

Hello. Saw the popular pages report on Wikipedia:WikiProject_Mixed_martial_arts/Popular_pages so went ahead and added it for Kickboxing task force pages too. Wikipedia:WikiProject_Martial_arts/Kickboxing_task_force/Popular_pages. Limited it to 500 results instead of the 1000 on some of the other reports as I thought it'd be plenty for the pages for this Task Force and it does seem enough. If anyone wants up to a 1000 results you can go edit the amount. The results aren't quite as specific for kickboxing that I was hoping but there they are...

Perhaps a reason to reconsider why some pages like The Mirage have kickboxing=yes?

We – Community Tech – are happy to announce that the Popular pages bot is back up-and-running (after a one year hiatus)! You're receiving this message because your WikiProject or task force is signed up to receive the popular pages report. Every month, Community Tech bot will post at Wikipedia:WikiProject Martial arts/Kickboxing task force/Archive 2017/Popular pages with a list of the most-viewed pages over the previous month that are within the scope of WikiProject Martial arts.

We've made some enhancements to the original report. Here's what's new:

• The pageview data includes both desktop and mobile data.
• The report will include a link to the pageviews tool for each article, to dig deeper into any surprises or anomalies.
• The report will include the total pageviews for the entire project (including redirects).

We're grateful to Mr.Z-man for his original Mr.Z-bot, and we wish his bot a happy robot retirement. Just as before, we hope the popular pages reports will aid you in understanding the reach of WikiProject Martial arts, and what articles may be deserving of more attention. If you have any questions or concerns please contact us at m:User talk:Community Tech bot.

Warm regards, the Community Tech Team

ShadessKB (talk) 23:36, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

@ShadessKB: I would really appreciate it if you could point me towards any guidance for setting up the 'popular pages' report, we have just started a Karate task force under WP:WPMA and it would be great to have one. Many thanks, Mountain^{cirque · Join the Karate Task Force?} 09:20, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

@Mountaincirque: User:Community_Tech_bot/Popular_pages_config.json Just edit that page and add your task force. Takes till the next rotation of updates for your page to be created so might be a few weeks. ShadessKB (talk) 23:00, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Sergey Lipinets record?

I need some help finding information about Sergey Lipinets' kickboxing career. There are many references in American media outlets about him being a world champion but I could only find the information I've already put on the article. Fpwlada (talk) 08:55, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Stephen Thompson & Amateur Fight records

Stephen Thompson (fighter) has a kickboxing record that posted is incorrectly. Some users are under the impression that his amateur record and professional record should be combined under the kickboxing record table instead of the separate amateur record. So the numbers are inflated. The record can be verified at http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/StephenThompsonPROMMA.htm (as well as titles). How should the record be posted?

Guess there shouldn't be any harm having them be posted separately but generally records are a mess in kickboxing. I would say most of the time on wikipedia kickboxing pro and amateur fights are on the same table.ShadessKB (talk) 12:18, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

If possible, amateur and pro records should not be combined since they're obviously different levels of competition. The problem is that different organizations defined amateur differently. For example, the IKF said that if you got paid for any fight you were a pro and could no longer compete in any of their amateur competitions. However, WAKO defined a pro has someone who made most of their money from kickboxing purses so many fighters (especially Eastern Europeans in my experience) could have gotten paid for 50-100 fights and still be considered an amateur by WAKO. I liked the IKF definition better, but YMMV. Papaursa (talk) 00:35, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

World Combat League

So on Raymond Daniels (martial artist) page it shows his World Combat League fights as Amateur Fights but there is nothing showing that the fights were "Amateur" nothing on the WCL website states anything about the bouts being amateur his over all record is 33–3 and adding his 18 WCL bouts seem to be the right amount of bouts to complete the 33–3 record JMichael22 (talk) 03:57, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

But according to Stephen Thompson (fighter)'s site [1] his WCL career were pro fights JMichael22 (talk) 04:02, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

The fighters I knew in the WCL got paid for participating, so I lean towards saying those were professional fights (but see my comment in the previous section). Papaursa (talk) 00:35, 9 March 2018 (UTC)