Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea/Popular culture/Archive 1

YA Entertainment

Someone who claims to not be directly affiliated with the company has created the page, which seems a bit...fishy. To me, it reads sort of like a company page, mostly because it lists all of the dramas it has translated and released on DVD. Many of the articles for the dramas were created by the same user, and they usually have a YA-created synopsis plus a link to the YA Entertainment page for the drama, in essence making it an advertisement. The user claims to have permission from YA to use their materials, but there is no proof. I am writing this here as a heads-up, and for some help in cleaning up these pages. I have done a few, but there are a lot. And I have no idea what to do with the YA page, so any input would be appreciated. SKS2K6 20:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Fly to the Sky

Fly to the Sky was rated as a Good article about a year ago. But Wikiproject Korea template doesn't show this. The closest thing to GA is A-class and B-class. mirageinred 22:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

New user activity on various K-pop pages

Both Letsfightinglove (talk page) and Her2manshizz (talk page) are repeatedly uploading promotional/copyright images and are putting them on as many pages as possible, ignoring any warnings. Also, once Letsfightinglove was warned, activity stopped on the account while the second user was created. Is anyone able to check IPs?...or where would I be able to ask?

I tried to undo as much as possible, prodding most of the Baby VOX rev solo pages, and at least tagging the images under {{replaceablefairuse}}, but there's probably a lot more out there.... SKS2K6 07:13, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Cocktail Love

I think this song deserves own article, because it has been covered by several Korean artists. My Korean isn't enough good to write about what the song tells, but I know Maronnier member Kim Seon Min wrote it because it says on the note sheet I have. Monni 20:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Korean drama articles

I've just been through Category:South Korean television drama, tagging all articles as part of this Wikiproject - sad to see so many articles with multiple cleanup tags! Amongst all the other problems, I noticed a few duplicate articles that require merging:

Did We Really Love → True to Love Y Done. PC78 19:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Rooftop Room Cat → Attic Cat Y Done. PC78 02:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Hello! Miss (TV series) → Hello! Miss Y Done. PC78 21:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Something Happened in Bali → What Happened in Bali Y Done. PC78 02:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

PC78 16:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

All done. Turned out to be more straightforward than I thought. PC78 02:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Da Hui Cho

The notability of this article is in question. Is this real, or just someone writing themselves into wiki-fame? The only references to him on the internet are copies of this article. Totnesmartin 14:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Let me know if this article should be deleted. The page was blanked, then tagged for speedy deletioh with no reason given. Looks to be a non-notable subject, but I would like to be sure before deleting or putting it up for AfD. Dreadstar † 03:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Translation sources

Hello all. I'm hoping to find some reliable sources for translations of Korean entertainment news articles into English that also have links to the original Korean articles, in the hopes they could be used as cited sources. I realize such a secondary source isn't ideal. I found a blog krnloop that, to my non-Korean-reading self, seems to be dedicated to translation without adding on all kinds of personal comments and which could potentially be a source (unlike a blog like, say, Popseoul, which is clearly not acceptable as a source). I'd also love English versions of Korean news sources, like KBS Global but haven't found any others besides Korea Times. Can anyone help? --Hamuhamu (talk) 15:09, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Lee Soo Man as producer

Hey all. While working on the article for Scandal, I noticed Lee Soo Man was listed as producer (I temporarily removed it pending a source). I also notice that his personal article lists all SM Entertainment artists as production credits. Anyone know if this is true? I've found him listed as producer on the liner notes of CDs by TVXQ and SMTown, but anyone have any other SM CDs they can check, or know of something that says he is an actual producer for every one of the SM artists, or...anything? His article is sadly in need of attention, but this is a small start, plus could be a benefit for a lot of album and single articles as well. Thanks! --hamu♥hamu (talk) 20:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

anyone interested?

Hi. I'm working on a blog about Korean manhwa & I'm wondering if anybody's interested in co-authoring the blog. I think the blog could do so much more with more people - I don't have as much time as I'd like to have to spend on expanding dokebiclub. Dokebiclub is going to be a portal for Korean manhwa with newsfeed, translations of Korean contents & education regarding manhwa, and various downloads (wallpapers, avatars, etc.) It'd be great if people could start making those fan creations & e-mail them to me Att dokebiclub latency gugmaild otcome. THanks. (Ferromagneticmonopole (talk) 23:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC))

Guidelines?

I was wondering if people want to start up a guideline for the various Korean pop culture articles around. I think something like this would be quite beneficial, as the articles vary greatly in quality (see Fly to the Sky and Chakra (band)). On the other hand, I do realise that these pages would generally fall under various other guidelines (for example, WP:BIO, WP:MOS-KO), but there are still discrepancies. For example, MOSKO states that we should use romanized titles, but Hwangguemeojang is under Goldfish (TV series), Muhan Dojeon under Infinite Challenge (although MD is a bit problematic, as it uses both the English and Korean names in the article), Uri Gyeolhon Haesseoyo under We Got Married, and Familyga Deodda under Family Outing. Should there be an exception to titles that have English names that have been adopted by the English-speaking fans? If so, then should it apply everywhere? I moved SNSD's "Genie" to Sowoneul Malhaebwa (Genie) because that is the correct title, but it was initially under "Tell Me Your Wish (Genie)". Which is preferable? Do we go by whatever's official, even if it's not common? According to MBC's English website, we should be using "Impossible?! Possible! The Unlimited Challenge!" and "Just Married", even though very few people use those titles.

Also, what constitutes as trivia? Does a list of endorsements count as trivia? Do height/weight/blood type count as trivia? What about the various variety show appearances? Or so-and-so getting swine flu (even if it's covered by Korean news media..who can be tabloid-esque sometimes)? In terms of awards, does a #1 on Inkigayo/Music Bank/M! Countdown count as an award? What about the monthly Cyworld awards?

Can we even do so? Or should they just always fall under whatever guidelines the articles should fall under, regardless of whether or not they always apply? SKS (talk) 05:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Magical JXR

didn't know if this should be mentioned here, but i just started a page about the manhwa magical JXR, if you wish to edit it, it's here. User:Bread Ninja/Magical JXR. It's small now, but that's only because i'm looking for refs.Bread Ninja (talk) 16:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Popular Culture

Is this task force in any way related to WP:WikiProject Popular Culture ? 76.66.200.95 (talk) 06:57, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Talk:List of Exo members#Individual images

I could use a bit of help with the names there. Cheers, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:13, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Seoul indie scene

Hi... I have been researching Seoul (specifically Hongdae area) indie rock scene and I thought I ask here, if someone wants to help me find Korean language sources for articles like Swingz. Monni (talk) 17:22, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

"Korean drama" new section: History

Yesterday I added a history section to the article "Korean drama". I do not read Korean, so my cited sources are entirely in English. Obviously, I think such a section is worth having, so considering that the article is apparently "high" importance, I hope someone who *does* read Korean can improve my work considerably, and wanted to call your attention to it. Other issues voluminously addressed in posts I made to the article's talk page, also yesterday.

The book discussed by the <Korea Times> review which is one of my cited sources is at this Worldcat entry, which includes the title and author in Hangul (um, plus one character of Hanja in the title). Even if I read Korean, as you'll see from the link, the local copy is unavailable to me at present.

Joe Bernstein joe@sfbooks.com

Not a registered Wikipedian. 128.95.217.92 (talk) 18:46, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Allkpop and Soompi Awards listed in award sections of musicians

I think we should agree to remove these. allkpop and soompi are both websites only. They conduct a survey and that's it. It's not like they hand out physical awards to celebrities. meaningless, and if they are included any other "blog awards" could also be included, for example the Eatyourkimchi Awards, as well. What do you think? Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 09:39, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

@Teemeah: I agree. They seemed to be just popularity polls in my opinion. ☴ Jaewon [Talk] 16:17, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Members

I have seen too many K-pop articles with boxes like this:

Stage name		Birth name		Date of birth
Romanized	Hangul	Romanized	Hangul
Yoosung	정우	Kim Jungwoo	김정우	(1990-05-09) May 9, 1990
Taewoon	태운	Woo Jiseok	우지석	(1990-05-11) May 11, 1990
Yoohwan	유환	Kim Yoohwan	김유환	(1991-07-29) July 29, 1991
Sungmin	성민	Choi Sungmin	최성민	(1995-12-07) December 7, 1995

This, I believe, runs contrary to a whole bunch of guidelines and editing policies on Wikipedia.

1. If people in such tables are notable and have a Wikipedia article, their date of birth (DOB) is to be mentioned there, not here.
2. If they don't, there are problems of verification. The company/group website is not a reliable source; one might argue that there is no reason for the company/group to lie, but that's not much in the way of vouching for reliability. Moreover, WP:DOB, while it allows for a DOB if linked to a site "linked to the subject", suggests that in the case of borderline notability a year should be enough: members without articles are such characters of borderline (or below borderline) notability. And, ahem, what does the date of birth matter?
3. Listing four names is overkill, pure and simple. This is the English Wikipedia. Listing even stage name and birth name is problematic, for reasons of verification.
4. These tables are visual overkill. What's called for in a band article is a list of members--no more, no less. What these members do, instruments or position or whatever, that may well be relevant, but that's not even listed in the above sample. Which brings me to a final point:
5. These all-inclusive tables (and there's some that list stuff like their official colors, their astrological signs, and the names of their pet chihuahuas) effectively help turn Wikipedia articles into fan sites. Many K-pop articles are problematic enough already, and this is a good place to start turning these things into encyclopedic articles.

In short, a simple list of members (with one name--pick one) and their position should be enough. This is common practice throughout Wikipedia: there is no reason for K-pop articles to be any different. Drmies (talk) 03:04, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Have you seen Destiny's Child or K-pop related Girls' Generation? A lot of groups have different member listing styles. Even if you tried to change it, somebody would change it back within a day. Jae ₩on (Deposit) 03:39, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't see birth dates or transliterations in there. The only unusual thing in Destiny's Child (and I think it looks awful) is that the timeline is first--but the actual list of members is perfectly conventional. That other one, that's the typical K-pop article bloated with fan talk, trivia, websites, etc. Drmies (talk) 04:32, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

@Drmies: I don't get your point in questioning the reliability of the official websites. You say name only. LOL. If you don't think an official website is reliable, how do you know the names in the article are right? Since the agencies are the ones who push the information out to newspapers about an upcoming group, the source of the people's names, positions and birthdates all come from the official agency and those newspapers and magazine will work based on that. Perfect example is Junsu, whose official birthday is all over all the newspapers and the information comes from SM Entertainment from times when he debuted as a member of TVXQ. Up until the point he personally mentioned years later in an interview that his actual birthdate is different (because his official papers cite the date he was registered and not the date he was actually born on), all newspapers and all encyclopedias cited that birthday only. If the band members are not notable outside the band, the information about their names, with Hangul and Hanja and proper transliteration, along with their birth dates should be in the band article. And official websites are perfectly credible sources. Sorry. Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 14:15, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

• Wait. "official websites are perfectly credible sources"? You're really disqualifying yourself from editing here. Of course they are not prima facie reliable, and in this case they're probably not reliable at all, since there is a commercial interest and age matters in this business. What you're sketching, unwittingly I suppose, is the marketing mechanism whereby the production company pushes (your word) the information through all the marketing channels, with you, the consumer, at the end--and you buy it (besides, you've given a good reason to not trust anything churned out by the allkpop and other fan/company portals). But we are an encyclopedia, and WP:RS is what should determine what is acceptable and what isn't. And if we have no reliable way of finding out something, we probably should report nothing. Drmies (talk) 14:29, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Controversies section on KBS

Please take a look at the talk page Talk:Korean Broadcasting System, there are editors who constantly place the long controversies section back. It basically does nothing but list in a very detailed manner all the scandals KBS ever had, from girl group outfits to alleged mistreatment of certain bands. I do not think it is an encyclopedia topic to act like a hate forum. Scandals may occur daily, only those major ones that had an impact on the industry should be included (like the actor and director strikes). The section looked like a K-pop fan forum. Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 12:19, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Korean drama for GA

Hi editors. I listed Korean drama for GA. For those who feel like reading :) maybe @Jay2kx: or @Quant18:? Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 14:42, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

@Teemeah: Check Talk:Korean drama/GA1. ☴ Jaewon [Talk] 15:53, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Expert attention

This is a notice about Category:Korea/Popular culture articles needing expert attention, which might be of interest to your WikiProject. It will take a while before the category is populated. Iceblock (talk) 20:26, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. ☴ Jaewon [Talk] 16:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

This article is biased

This entire article was/is written by three to four users who decided amongst themselves to re-right all of the k-pop articles. In their discussion they decided to delete section of articles, without wikipedia discussion. When I asked one member of the group about Talk Pages, I was told "It would not be possible to talk to all". Isn't that what we in wiki do...talk to all?

This project should be deleted! Mikepellerin^talk 06:27, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

You have to acknowledge the fact that there are no reliable sources across multiple K-pop articles. It's just a fact. There is no biased opinion here. If you can say your opinion, then others can too.--TerryAlex (talk) 06:30, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

This article is nothing more than a set few editors composing their views on an article.! Mikepellerin^talk 06:42, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

This is not an article. K-pop is an article. Barack Obama is an article. This is discussion here on a talk page of a WikiProject dedicated to popular Korean culture, by editors who frequently edit such articles. It's a free discussion, anyone is welcome to join. This is how Wikipedia is being made, that people who deal with a certain topic and are knowledgable on it, discuss how to safeguard the articles that fall into scope, within the given broader guidelines of Wikipedia. The general guidelines are not always easy to use for a specific topic, because it needs to be broken down further to be able to clean up articles. Who would do this if not the people who usually edit these articles? This is what WikiProjects are for. It would be impossible to discuss this with all of the editors, I don't think that Astronomy editors would be highly interested in talking about whether K-pop nicknames are valid for Wikipedia or not. This is a specific topic which requires the specific knowledge of editors who are interested to edit these articles. For example the WikiProject Discographies started developing its own style guide for discographies, with discussion on the project talk page - not elsewhere. Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 15:21, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I never said it wouldn't be possible to talk to all. I said it's not possible to talk about the exact same issue on ALL articles. I'm not going to have the debate about whether an award given by a random fansite should be listed on an article about notable awards on the page for every single kpop group. That would never lead to any kind of consistency. I'm sorry you feel so negatively about people who are trying to keep kpop articles appropriate for Wikipedia. Any editor is free to contribute to this discussion. Shinyang-i (talk) 21:24, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

How is it?

How is it that this group has become the deciding factor, In the article that other articles have to bend before to become a recognized article in the kppop genre? Who made you all the deciding factor when it comes to articles? Mikepellerin^talk 05:52, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

CALM DOWN. None of what you're saying is accurate and some doesn't even make sense. This is a place for discussion. ANYONE is welcome to join in discussions here. Discussion on how to make articles conform to Wikipedia standards is how best practices get decided on Wikipedia. If you've really been editing Wikipedia for 10 years like you claim, then you should understand this. For issues that pertain to multiple articles, it is productive to have discussions in a centralized location, such as this working group. ANY kpop editor is welcome to join discussions here. ANY. I tried to spread the word around to editors like yourself who appeared to be active in the genre. That said, PLEASE CONTRIBUTE and join discussion of substance. Continuing to yell about your emotions isn't helping anything. I think we all (you and me included) want to improve articles, so let's work on doing that, okay? Shinyang-i (talk) 06:09, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I want to contribute

But, there is so much negativity. Most of the users of this forum are biased. They are biased towards the groups they support! EXO, SuJu, Girls' Generation...The list goes on! How are we to support these groups when most of their affiliations are revoked?

No clue what you're talking about, and I don't really care what groups people prefer. Nothing we've been discussing has anything to do with specific groups. For the record, I hate those three groups. But at any rate, please don't attribute motives to people in that way; assume good faith, always. You're setting yourself up to be frustrated and preventing yourself from making any meaningful contributions. I just really want you to contribute constructively to the discussions we've been trying to have above. Tossing around accusations isn't helping anything. :( Shinyang-i (talk) 06:51, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

@Mikepellerin: I don't understand everything you're saying, but I don't think it's true. I don't see any evidence of bias towards certain groups. It's not hard to see that K-pop articles need a lot of improvement. We are trying to have a discussion about how to do that. --Random86 (talk) 06:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Allkpop, soompi, Soshified...etc.

I noticed that WikiProject Korea/Pop Culture user User:Random86 tagged most kpop articles with a reliable source tag. I do agree that those sources are unreliable, but I hope some time will be given for editors to find a reliable back-up source, unlike what happened with awards removal which was apparently discussed on a few users talk pages for a day or two, then implemented before the whole of wikipedia had a chance to review and discuss it. Mikepellerin^talk 04:21, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

This is such a wide-spread problem, it wouldn't be fair not to allow time for the references to be replaced. --Random86 (talk) 04:27, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

The awards issue came up months ago, @Mikepellerin:. (show me?)

Allkpop and such have never been acceptable awards for listing. (Again, show me, as you have just now discussed this.)

Anyway... With the references, I think a lot of the problem is that, even when AKP and such do link to the original Korean article (if there is one), it usually comes from tabloid-type publications. So much of the stuff discussed in kpop articles never gets reliable, mainstream media coverage in Korea. Please also know that this is a place to discuss any Korean popular culture issue; you can bring up any issue here that traverses multiple articles, not just things that directly involve editors who have signed up on the project page. :) Shinyang-i (talk) 04:38, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

@Mikepellerin:, please don't insert your comments in the middle of my comment, as it makes it confusing to tell who said what. Anyway, have you read past discussions on this or other working groups? That is a place to start. The main Wikipedia Project Korea also includes some discussions on related subjects. Please, is it possible to just stop arguing about the timing of this and let it go? Instead, be constructive and comment on the entries to the list I made above - which assessment do you agree with, which don't you agree with? Do you have additional information to add or corrections to make? Which of the items do you think fit with the spirit/policies of Wikipedia as a whole (not with what kpop fans think is important) and therefore should/should not be acceptable for listing on a Wikipedia article? C'mon, let's get constructive! :) Shinyang-i (talk) 05:10, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah, so you and your ilk are the said withall of the kpop community? How nice of you all to take over the the KPop community without a discussion. Explain yourself! Explain the instances of how you and your cronies have disrupted kpop pages? Mikepellerin^talk 05:26, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Dude, what the heck? You're just being rude now and not responding to any of the attempts I've made at constructive discussion. I've invited you many times to comment on actual stuff and you persist in emotional outbursts about personalities. Be constructive or else step away from Wikipedia until you've calmed down. You're not contributing to anything in your present state. Shinyang-i (talk) 05:46, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Korea/Reliable sources is where the list is if anyone's wondering. Again, you guys may add to it (or just look at it as a reference). But discuss on its talk page first! Tibbydibby (talk) 18:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

We are actually discussing it below. Your input would be welcomed. And thanks for the reminder about that page's talk page - we'll have to be sure to add a link on it to the present discussion.  :) Shinyang-i (talk) 21:23, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Billboard K-Pop Hot 100 (now defunct)

I'm noticing many articles list chart placements for songs on the now-defunct Billboard K-Pop Hot 100 as being chart listings for the USA. This is NOT ACCURATE; this chart measures chart placements in KOREA. If you see this chart listed for "USA" in any article, please change it to "Korea" or "KOR" immediately. Shinyang-i (talk) 23:15, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I have noticed this as well. Billboard K-Pop Hot 100 is definitely a Korean chart. --Random86 (talk) 23:26, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Article to move ASAP

This article 척했어 (song) needs to be moved as soon as possible. The title's not even in roman script. It should be titled "Fake It". I'm not familiar with how to move articles and I'm in the middle of a massive tagging project, so can someone else help? :) Shinyang-i (talk) 08:38, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Moved to Fake It (Hyomin song). There's another song with the same title that will have to be disambiguated later. It's easy to move pages. :) Read "How to move a page" from WP:MOVE. --Random86 (talk) 09:21, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that. I just didn't wanna deal with it at that moment. Sigh. This is all so depressing. Every tiny thing is an argument, it seems. Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 December 25 Shinyang-i (talk) 23:09, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Shinyang-i, one step at a time buddy :) If you want to move an article, click "More" on the top right --TerryAlex (talk) 23:45, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Endorsement Lists

I've been searching Wikipedia for any guidance on listing product endorsements, and can't find any. They seem to be of little importance on other parts of Wikipedia(?). I can't find full (or even partial) lists of endorsements for any musician anywhere outside of kpop. Many people with tons and tons of endorsements don't even have them mentioned in their articles. For some people particularly noted for their many endorsements, like Beyonce, notable and long-term deals are mentioned in prose. Endorsements are important in Korean entertainment, so it's appropriate to mention them, but I propose doing away with lists of every endorsement and including only those which are important in some way, and doing so only in the prose. Examples of importance could include long-term deals, ones that furthered the singer/group's fame in a significant way (as sourced by reliable media), ones with some significant controversy or event. Also, a specific endorsement could be used as an example of the type the artist often does, such as "Blah-Blah has modeled for cosmetics brands such as The Face Shop during 2008 and Nature Republic in 2010". Comments? Shinyang-i (talk) 08:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I completely agree. An example of K-pop endorsements written in prose is Girls' Generation#Endorsements. --Random86 (talk) 08:57, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, prose, and everything well-verified in really reliable sources. One hates to invoke WP:FART for everything but it applies: not every single factoid, even if verified, is of encyclopedic value. Editorial decisions will have to be made, based on context and content and sourcing. One little source for a factoid about some appearance in a commercial--not notable, esp. since this product placement is par for the course in this entertainment industry. What I mean is, if Peter te Bos (you've never heard of him, and that's the point) appears in a commercial in a national campaign, that's absolutely notable because a guy like him does not typically appear in commercials--but we're talking about models here, who are picked because of their looks, in an industry which is marketed around the kind of people they are. So, strong sourcing, so we can make some sourced of argument that it's worth mentioning. Drmies (talk) 23:47, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Random86, that list of endorsement is better since it is in prose, but the sourcing is very much lacking, since it cites Joynews and a bunch of other sites that appear to be just like all those other aggregators. I'm saying this because Deoma12 seems to think that on JJ Project citing stuff like this is reliable enough. One really wonders about those endorsements anyway, since the group ceased existing before the ink on the contract dried up. Incidentally, Deoma12 thinks (incorrectly) that JJ Project is a GA--it is not. Drmies (talk) 16:59, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Drmies, the problem with Korean news sourcing is that some of the "more reliable" news websites don't bother (or rarely) report on this type of (endorsement) news. But for Girls' Generation, the group is a popular girl group, so it is still notable to include them despite the question of reliable sourcing [I did trimmed that section down, it was a whole list earlier]. But for JJ Project, all I see is still just a list with no notable information.--TerryAlex (talk) 17:22, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm--as far as I'm concerned it's not notable until secondary sources (providing more than just a mention, or a repetition of a press release) make it notable. Just cause a person is famous doesn't make every endorsement (or concert, or fart) worth mentioning. If the reliable sources don't comment on it, I don't think we have a problem--rather, I think we have an opportunity. But at least we agree on JJ, and that's something; I hope Deoma12 is listening. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 17:29, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Drmies, You misunderstood me, when I said the girl group is popular, I meant to relate it to these facts "The group was one of the most sought-out endorsers in 2009" or "In 2012, Girls' Generation as a group placed first as the celebrity with the most CFs". These facts are relevant due to their popularity. Like I said, I trimmed that section down a lot, it was a whole list earlier. If these facts were not mentioned, I would have removed the entire section.--TerryAlex (talk) 18:01, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Gotcha. Yes, if such claims can be made, with sources to back it up, we're talking about things that are relevant. I'm not trying to deny, for instance, the commercial value of these things--in fact, that's why all this is here in the first place. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 23:04, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Charting no longer sole criteria for songs/albums

Based on discussions at Wikipedia talk:Record charts and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs, merely charting is no longer considered sufficient for notability. The song, album, or EP must still meet general notability guidelines. This will mean probable removal for most of those non-promo'd album tracks that charted digitally, unless they have some exceptional notability as evidenced by significant coverage in reliable independent sources. Same for albums and EPs; especially applicable where there is an article for both a notable song and its not-separately-notable EP. One or the other can have an article, but is not needed for both in most cases. Some of this trimming is already being done with Girls' Generation songs, but I know there are more. Do you guys want to AFD them as they are found or should we make a list as we run across them and then AFD them all at once? Comments or thoughts? Shinyang-i (talk) 08:12, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

If having charted on some digital chart is the only coverage of the recording, then it isn't notable. I don't think that was ever the intent of the notability criteria. I'd say AfD all of those that you have already come across, and then individually nominate as more are found.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:17, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

MBC, KBS and SBS - Broadcasting System Pages

I just recently took a brief look at the Wikipedia pages of MBC, SBS and KBS... and to say it nicely, those pages are a total mess. I found that most of them were written in a viewpoint that is sort of bashing the Media Corporations (ie: Nipslip scandal involving SBS). What is your take on this, and do you think these pages need a severe trimming, or perhaps a severe cut in length of these articles? Thanks in advanced and maybe someone else can do the cut-downs since I don't know where to begin. Tibbydibby (talk) 01:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Good catch. The articles do all seem pretty sub-par. What shocks me on the MBC article is I don't see a single mention of all the public protests against its president in Korea. People protested all over Seoul for months on end. It was the most wide-ranging and active protest I saw the whole time I lived in Korea. Way bigger scandal than someone stealing fangifts meant for a kpop artist. Overall, I think these kinds of articles are hard because there is little information in English and it's not the kind of stuff kpop/kdrama/etc fans translate. That's why mostly trivial kpop-related scandals are listed. I saw a tag on one article about possibly getting the Korean Wikipedia article translated. I think there is some kind of procedure to request such a thing(?). Shinyang-i (talk) 01:15, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

I have appropriately tagged the sections in Question for the broadcasting system pages with the NPOV template with an appropriate talk section in their respective talk pages. This needs to be resolved but I don't know how at this time. Tibbydibby (talk) 01:45, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

@Tibbydibby and Shinyang-i: I tried to cleanup on multiple occassions but ips and newly registered people mess it up again. I simply don't have enough patience to restore the articles very other day. I would really want to suggest that these articles be up for review so that ip and new reg changes would have to be approved before they appear. Some people feel entitled to turn these articles into corporate nbashing forums because the channel banned their favourite band's song. It's already on a ridiculous level. Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 13:20, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

@Teemeah: The only thing I can do at this point is to tag the appropriate sections (with that warning at the top of the "Controversies" section). I don't know what else to do (and I was searching through the histories and saw that you tried, but others apparently think they know ~better~ than Experienced Wikipedians). I just hope a discussion comes out of it and then an appropriate cleanup can begin. Until then, the tags will have to do unfortunately. Tibbydibby (talk) 18:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

@Tibbydibby: It's already been tagged for a long time... tagging doesn't help as any cleanup is immediately reverted. I also tried to put the problem up for discussion on the talk page - to no avail. The only solution would be putting these pages under review, so that any changes would need to be approved by a patroller/reviewer.Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 15:04, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

@Teemeah: I've decided to put this on the Wikipedia:Requests for page protection for now. Hopefully another administrator can take a look at these three articles which I consider problematic. Hopefully something is done about this. But great try in cleaning up these articles. Tibbydibby (talk) 18:15, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

@Shinyang-i and Teemeah: I have deleted the "non-notables" but kept some of the controversies in the articles just now. The tag for neutrality, however, remains since some re-wording is required to keep the articles encyclopedic (hopefully other editors can do this). Tibbydibby (talk) 21:04, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

@Tibbydibby:, I saw your work. Looks good! Although, you're right - more work is still needed. I'd like to work on it but right now...sigh...so busy with kpop. TT_TT Shinyang-i (talk) 02:18, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Award Lists for K-pop & K-Variety popular with K-pop fans

Here I wanted to have a more detailed discussion over the awards I've been commonly seeing listed for kpop and, by extension, Korean variety shows popular with kpop fans.

• Every award ever conceived cannot and should not be listed, just as they are not listed for non-Korean entertainment. Korea has more awards than I've ever seen in my life. I lived in Korea for several years and attended many small, random music events at which every single performer was given some kind of award. They are awards given for showing up. Every event has awards. (Many schools and jobs work like this too - give some kind of awards to everyone for basically just existing, to make people feel good and counteract the cut-throat nature of the society.) Also, the Korean government organizes countless 'awards' for the sole purpose of getting publicity for an industry in which it has invested heavily. They are not 'real' awards of the type that belong in lists on Wikipedia. Add on top of this, many kpop fans are organizing their own awards for fun/notoriety/to get Exo's attention/whatever, and the list of un-encyclopedic awards could spiral out of control until eternity.
• I've looked over Wikipedia:WikiProject Awards and prizes and found no help on the project or talk page. I've also tried to look at how certain awards are handled on the articles of non-Korean artists through some random sampling.
• I thought I'd break down the awards I've been seeing into various categories based on my initial assessment; please please comment on each one and add any that I've forgotten (of which there are many, I'm sure)! We need to assess what should be acknowledged on an encyclopedic list of awards and what shouldn't. Things are currently out of control and inconsistent.

Definitly include - are notable awards of signifcance

• KBS Gayo Daechukje (KBS Gayo Daejeon some years)
• KBS Drama Awards
• KBS Entertainment Awards
• SBS Drama Awards
• SBS Gayo Daejeon
• MBC Drama Awards
• MBC Gayo Daejejeon
• MBC Entertainment Awards
• Golden Disk Awards
• Seoul Music Awards
• Korean Music Awards
• Japan Gold Disc Awards
• Japan Record Award
• MTV Video Music Awards Japan
• Mnet Asian Music Awards - MKMF/MAMAs (sadly)
• MTV Europe Awards

Non-Judged/Non-Merit Based Awards - awarded for sales and/or public voting only; every chart/music download service has one

• MelOn Music Awards
• Gaon Chart K-Pop Awards
• Nickelodeon Korea Kids' Choice Awards
• MTV The Show
• Bugs Music Awards
• Dosirak Music Awards
• Soribada Music Awards
• Cyworld Digital Music Awards
• Monkey3 Chart
• Gallup Korea
• Hanteo
• YouTube Music Awards
• Billboard Japan Music Awards

Awards With Unknown Basis? - how/by whom are they judged? do they have any merit?

• Mnet 20's Choice Awards - yes, I know this is famous
• SBS MTV Best of the Best
• Annual Korean Entertainment Arts Awards - can't find any info on it except references to people winning it
• Huading Awards
• Thailand Asia SEED Awards
• Music Awards Japan BIGLOBE
• Yahoo! Asian Buzz Awards (a Hong Kong award, not to be confused with Japan MTV awards' Asian Buzz Award)
• Space Shower Music Video Awards
• Korean Cultural Entertainment Awards - again, only references are to people winning it
• Anuual Korea Best Dresser - is this even a thing?
• Style Icon Awards
• Synnara Awards - Synnara is a brick-and-mortar and online music retailer different from Melon etc
• SBS PopAsia Awards
• Korea PD Awards

Awards Given for Participation at an Event and/or by a Korean government entity for promotional purposes - not actual competitive awards; this stuff goes in prose, not on a competitive awards list

• Asia Song Festival
• Incheon Culture Day Ceremony
• Korean Ministry of Culture and Tourism awards
• Korean Wave Industry Award
• Proud Korean Awards

Polls by non-mainstream for-profit websites or similar, designed to drive traffic to the site; generally popularity polls - have no place on Wikipedia

• Allkpop Awards
• Soompi Awards
• Korean Updates Awards - Korean in origin, but just like Allkpop etc
• Sports Korea Awards - Korean tabloid
• Kpopstarz Awards
• Koreaboo Awards
• KoreanDrama Awards
• DramaFever Awards

Fan-Made Awards -- nice idea, but do not belong on Wikipedia

• Eat Your Kimchi Awards
• So-Loved Awards (European kpop awards)
• Remarkable Awards (German kpop awards)
• Philippine Kpop Convention
• Philippine Kpop Awards

Milestone Awards - for selling a certain number of units, getting a certain number of youtube views, etc. Not competitive awards and given to all who reach that milestone. I didn't see them listed in the awards lists of non-Korean pages I randomly visited.

• VEVOCertified Awards
• Recording Industry Association of Japan

A possible avenue of consideration is if the awards receive any coverage in the media outside of 1) the award-giver's website or 2) sites like Allkpop and fansites just listing the winners based on the award-giver's website. As in, did non-tabloid K-media cover it or INDEPENDENT English-language media (meaning English media who wrote articles that aren't just translations of Korean media and aren't sponsored by the Korean government).

Please comment under each listing, not in a group at the bottom, for ease of organization. :) Shinyang-i (talk) 00:02, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I'll write a more detailed comment later, but I'm not sure the talk page guidelines allow for comments under each listing, unless you sign each section. --Random86 (talk) 00:21, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah yes, I can see where that might be an issue. Hmmmmm. Well, dunno what to do then. LOLShinyang-i (talk) 00:28, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Awesome! This list is awesome! Good work Shinyang-i. I've always wondered what awards were actual awards and what were fabricated. Mikepellerin^talk 04:14, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

KCEA is an actual award ceremony. Voting plays a role in the awards but generally fans only care about them when their biases win. I have actually linked to the official website on the Cross Gene page (I need to fix it because of the layout update but just remove the excess on the hyperlink for now). Awards being vote awards is not a huge problem anyway imo. MTV has many many online-vote-only awards and they're all included on here so I don't see any need to consider voting as a factor. Significant awards are obvious. Like I don't understand why the Melon Music Awards aren't in the Definitely include? GDAs is no less about votes and sales and the MMA's is as much a televised event as the other but the GDAs are up there and MMA's aren't, so what is the difference there? And we cannot use our lack of knowledge of an award to declare it insignificant - you may just need to search in Hangul. Although I do think we can all raise a collective eyebrow at the Best Dresser Award. Take out the fan/vlog/polly click driven website awards for sure, but I don't agree with removing something because you didn't find more information on it straight away. That doesn't necessarily make it not encyclopaedic. Put a citation needed on it instead. Someone may know more than we do and can fill in the blanks.

The amount of awards that Kpop has compared to Non-Korean Entertainment is not an argument for removing awards imo. Kpop isn't those other industries. I don't agree with trying to run the pages like it is. Ausnarnia (talk) 05:33, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I really appreciate your comments, and that's exactly what I was looking for - responses to my initial assessment of those awards. I was basing the list on what I knew at that time, and I had hoped people would come along and fill in information especially for those ones that I had listed in the "unknown" column. It wasn't in any way intended to be a definitive list of how things should be regarded. I was just trying to kind of categorize things for discussion so we could all pool our info together. I've done a little research since and learned more about the Melon Awards, for instance. I knew it existed, I'd watched it, but I didn't know (at that time) how winners were determined. So its absence from the "definitely include" column wasn't meant to imply it shouldn't be included, but only meant "I need more info." I didn't amend the list because no one seemed to be paying attention to it anymore (thanks for bringing it back to life.) Only notable awards are supposed to be included; I've talked to editors outside kpop about that (please don't again say that kpop should be different than other subjects; let's at least consider how other subjects do things and not knee-jerk refuse to follow established norms just because kpop is kpop.) But for now let's put that issue aside and work together to just try to get an understanding of what all these various awards are. Then we can revisit that "should" and "shouldn't" lists. Cool? Shinyang-i (talk) 06:13, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

@Shinyang-i: Yep, understandable. My bad there and I apologise if I came across as rude. However I am not saying that Kpop should be different to other subjects - I am saying it is different. That much is indisputable. You yourself outlined something that happens in Kpop that doesn't anywhere else. We may not see any merit in it, but that is not entirely for us to decide. For example the music show awards. It's not a thing anywhere else so we could dismiss it out of hand, but it is the glass ceiling of Kpop for groups outside the Big3 (In what other industry do you have a Big 3???). When you crack that you have advanced in significance. Everything about these discussions should include their context in Kpop. I am getting the impression that you believe I am making these arguments because I think Kpop is a special snowflake or something (my words) but that is really not the case. I actually have many serious issues with the differences Kpop has from other industries and I don't think we should attempt to present it like it is the same as them. However as you can probably see on here I tend to focus on one group in particular as an editor, but I do need to source the Korean Hallyu awards more decently soon so I will definitely do what I can to help fill in any other blanks I can. Ausnarnia (talk) 08:52, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

@Ausnarnia: Actually what you say makes a lot of sense. I'm a little sensitive as I've been on the receiving end of some pretty heavy duty personal attacks and Wiki-stalking lately. (Wiki-stalking, that sounds so lame LOL.) Anyway, I'd go a step further and say that every nation or culture's entertainment industry has its own unique characteristics as kpop does. Our (I mean that collectively) awareness of it just varies by our level of knowledge of those different industries. The Jpop industry (the hardcore idol group part) is controlled almost entirely by a very few companies/individuals, for instance. It has a lot of similarities (and differences) from kpop. Bollywood has a lot of its own unique circumstances, too. And so on. They all make it work on Wikipedia, so I think we can find a happy medium where unique situations related to kpop are not ignored, but things are also not, well, the way many of them are now. Know what I mean? Anyway, please do share any more insights you have about these various awards; at the very least some of this could probably benefit those awards' articles. Some are pretty lacking in substance beyond lists of winners, dates, and venues. :) Shinyang-i (talk) 09:37, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Group "Leaders"

For K-POP Leaders (like Taeyeon, Leeteuk, Onew, Victoria, etc.), I know this is a silly question but is it encyclopedic to mention that they are the leader of the group, even if reliable sources say so? I'm tried to de-fan Zico but I got reverted a little bit. Tibbydibby (talk) 16:54, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm, good question. This is a tough one because it's pretty specific to kpop...and jpop, I think (?). Maybe we could look at some jpop articles to see what they do. Overall, I think it often plays an important role in the way the group functions, but from a public point of view it's just a label. A notable exception might be Eric of Shinhwa, who as leader did all the negotiating with SM Entertainment when Shinhwa left the company, the negotiations for use of their name, stuff like that, and it was all known by the public. I'm inclined to think it's maybe not totally encyclopedic but we'll never get rid of it successfully and it's not really harmful in that it can't get out of control or incite editing wars. What do others think? Shinyang-i (talk) 21:01, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

How is "leader" different than "front-man" or "front-woman?" If used in that context, I don't think that there is a problem. Usually in a band there are one or two members who are the "leaders".--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 21:30, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I think it's fine to mention it, if it's reliably sourced. --Random86 (talk) 21:46, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

It's fine, as long as we don't "label" those K-pop artists in a ridiculous way. The ongoing problem with K-pop artists is that they are being too "over-labeled" with many "empty" vocabulary. Like I said, "Person A is a singer, dancer, actor, rapper, main vocalist, maknae, leader, producer, choreographer..." The key is to elaborate their significant "roles" within the article (like Eric, for example), and not to label them with any "empty" vocabulary. Not every artists has official sources that state their official assigned roles though. Most of the time, I think we might be able to do away with it. I just looked at "Zico", I think it should be fine like that for now. Thank you for taking out all the "singer, songwriter, dancer, producer, MC, and radio host".--TerryAlex (talk) 21:51, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

And we definitely need to remove "maknae", "visual", and asinine stuff like that from their roles. Been doing those as I notice them. Those aren't even things. Shinyang-i (talk) 21:54, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

You forgot Lead Singer, Lead Dancer, Main Dancer...etc. I can remember reverting so many edit wars of fans fighting over who was Main and who was Lead. I tried to get that stuff taken out as back as far as 2010. The problem I faced was that it had refs., so it was OK. Mikepellerin^talk 07:02, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Just because someone is a "main dancer" in some group does not make him become a "backup" dancer (as in his occupation). Please do not label your favorite idol as such.--TerryAlex (talk) 09:11, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

It is very specific to Kpop, as I already mentioned it in the K-pop article. It's not front-man, a leader of a kpop band has responsibility, decision power over the others and supervision/punishment power. Not all Kpop bands work the same way but the mid-2000's generation bands like Bigbang surely do have this function in their leaders. G-Dragon is famous for how he kept his bandmates in line at debut }, even controlling their cell phone usage. Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 01:39, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah but most of that about G-Dragon is anecdotal to say the least. Mikepellerin^talk 07:06, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Well he said it with his own mouth. This way, no interviews would be taken seriously, cuz anything an artist says might as well be just a made up story. Including whatever American artists say, too. Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 20:00, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Why are you including Nationalism in this discussion Teemeah? We were talking K-pop, on a K-pop section of wikipedia.Mikepellerin^talk 06:42, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

What nationalism? How is this nationalism? I'm not even American, to begin with. Your words don't make any sense. Or you simply just don't have any valid reasoning so now you are picking on my words instead? Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 09:51, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Tistory.com images

Hello, I know some users in this group has uploaded a number of images to Commons from tistory.com blog farm. I need some assist regarding that images.

Please see this thread on Commons VP (Korean) for more informations, and reply there if that is your case.

Thanks, — Revi 09:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Request for AFD comments

If anyone has a few minutes, I'd appreciate some comments on this: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/With: Live Tour 2015. There's nothing special about it or different than the other current AFDs, other than I listed it several days ago and it has no comments yet. It's for a concert tour that isn't slated to begin until February. For that reason (and that reason alone - no ulterior motives, here!) I AFD'd it. Thanks! Shinyang-i (talk) 02:25, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

• Hey if Taylor Swift can get an own page for her upcoming page then this group can do the same. The site just needs a few more sources, no need to delete it, it's just a month, the article will be re-created anyway. Just keep it and get some more sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.144.142 (talk) 15:28, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

English Sources for KPOP Artists

Hi,

I found a Wikipedia Page WP:PUS which lists the potentially unreliable sources in the ENGLISH media. Sometimes English, extreme tabloids report on various groups like Girls' Generation or BIGBANG. Let's be careful with which ENGLISH sources to use too on Wikipedia (ie: I better NOT see any KPOP articles with the National Enquirer or Star Magazine as a source of information on any KPOP idol/group/actor pages).

Thanks! Just need to let you know.

Tibbydibby (talk) 21:21, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

What if it's a story about G-Dragon's love child with a three-headed alien from Venus? Kpop fans have a right to know! (hope you caught this is a joke. Many thanks for the link to the list and the reminder!!) Shinyang-i (talk) 00:54, 7 January 2015 (UTC)