Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink/Archive 8

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Need a culinary perspective

There is a discussion here about the organization of List of culinary fruits. The current situation is a mess. An editor has suggested an arrangement by climate and geographic origin, to help readers determine whether a specific species could be grown in their area. I pointed out that the article title refers to culinary fruits, not cultivated fruits, and that perhaps an arrangement into culinary categories might be more appropriate, but neither of us have expertise in that area. If any of you are interested, please take a look and give us your viewpoints.--Curtis Clark (talk) 14:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Korean Buddhist temple cuisine

User:Badagnani insists on including a photo of "new type" or inventive food to the article in question. Well, I've been tired of explaining everything related Korean cuisine to the user for a long time, so I really appreciate anyone who has knowledges of Asian Buddhist cuisine and can intervene this silly dispute, please visit the talk page. Thanks--Caspian blue (talk) 23:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I ask that you kindly take a calm, collected attitude and moderate your tone. Please examine this page, the photo series from which the photo in question was taken, and you will see that these are not all "inventive" dishes. Badagnani (talk) 00:11, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

How about you stop adding it in and wait for a consensus on whether to include it? That way people can decide whether or not it is a proper image to include. Lets wait until the tenth when Chris is back and he can confirm the image based upon his texts, which he has an extensive collection on which to draw. Until then I agree with Caspian and ask you to keep the status quo (no image). --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 01:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The main point is that the article was formerly entitled "Korean vegetarian cuisine" and was moved without consensus. At the original title, all such photos would be fine. As it is, the article still discusses both Korean Buddhist vegetarian cuisine as well as secular Korean vegetarian cuisine. Badagnani (talk) 01:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Moving does not require consensus under WP:Bold, which Caspian did. If there is a decent reason why it should not have been moved? If you can make a policy based argument supporting your claim of non-consensus move do so, but in another discussion; this is a discussion on the inclusion of the image which you two have different opinions on its inclusion.

Caspian, could you provide some citations or links to support your reasons for not including the image? --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 01:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I proposed the title move because Korean vegetarian cuisine is a "recent boom". On the other hand, Korean Buddhist temple cuisine has a long established history since Goryeo period. The former has a very little info unlike the latter cuisine. Besides, I had waited his response for 10 days, since Badagnani has been following my edits. Therefore I considered his calmness on the suggestion "his agreement" to move the title. Nevertheless, the photos are not from "Korean vegetarian food festival held in Seattle as he alleges. The photo in question is not confirmed as a vegetarian food although its ingredients include gingko and ginseng. We don't know whether the meatball like dish has meat or not. His inclusion of the food that he never tastes before and I also have not seen before in Buddhist cuisine is original research. FYI, my family believe Buddhism, and my grandparents are strict Buddhists, so I'm much familiar with such cuisine than ordinary Koreans. My cousin is even a nun!--Caspian blue (talk) 01:24, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

All the dishes at this page, from which the photo comes, are vegetarian. The photo itself bears the caption "Traditional Korean vegetarian dish of ginseng and gingko biloba, at Korean Cultural Celebration, part of the Festál series of ethnic events at Seattle Center, Seattle, Washington, U.S. The ginkgo is probably ginkgo seeds." We've been in touch with the photographer (one of Commons' most prolific) about this. Regarding the page move, arguments against it have been provided here, as well as at the page itself. That is the most important point, as the original page title would encompass photos of both traditional Korean Buddhist temple cuisine as well as more modern secular Korean vegetarian cuisine. Badagnani (talk) 01:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The caption is wrong. Originally, the food has its name tag "ginseng and gingko biloba " along with "수삼은행소스" the Korean name, nothing else. The white name tag only stats the sauce made with ginkgo seed and ginseng. We really don't know whether the meatball like dish is made of "vegetables" only. Many of the dishes in the festival are neither authentic, traditional Korean food, nor even introduced to recent media. Besides, the photographer seems to know almost nothing about Korean cuisine given his questions and wrongly titled images. Badagnani solely insists to keep the page at the neologoism without any proof.(commercial links are not reliable sources)--Caspian blue (talk) 02:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The dishes in the photos are all vegetarian. Badagnani (talk) 02:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

How do you know that? Is there any evidence that confirms the images as being vegetarian besides the captions listed? --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 03:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

All of the food in all the photo is vegetarian, as confirmed by the photographer who took them. Badagnani (talk) 03:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Evidence please? Beside, this diff shows your own interpretation of the photo because the IP user is YOU. So nothing confirmed by the photographer. The japchae seems to have slices of beef inside. Moreover, I visited both his talk page at English Wikipedia and Commons of User talk:Jmabel, I could not find your visit and your alleged confirmation.--Caspian blue (talk) 11:57, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there really any photo of anything that we could question if we applied this type of skepticism? The only thing we have to go by as far as image descriptions go are the creators themselves. We tend to trust these unless we have very good reasons to think otherwise. I suggest that these very good reasons be explanded upon a bit more objectively.

And as for moving the article, I find it more than just bold to move an article without even trying to present reliable sources that define the new title. Is the definition of "Korean Buddhist temple cuisine" anyone else's but Caspian's?

Peter ^Isotalo 14:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The description is attached by Badagnani, not by the photographer. The latter questioned about what ingredients are used for food that he took a photo or dish names to me, so I would not trust the description that he provided. As for the title move, you're supporting the other side's "no source" version. Well, I added a reliable source would add more.--Caspian blue (talk) 14:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The original description provided by the photographer says "A Korean mixed vegetarian noodle dish".[1] If you can't accept that you should at least ask Mabel about his reasons for describing the picture the way he did.

Peter ^Isotalo 22:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I assumed Badagnani did as repeatedly claiming that the photographer confirm on his allegations including the meatball like dishes.--Caspian blue (talk) 00:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The article formerly discussed both the traditional Buddhist vegetarian fare as well as modern (secular) vegetarian food, which makes it more inclusive and logical for our project. This link shows Buddhist foods and the photos of Joe Mabel at Commons show vegetarian festival foods (which were likely inspired by the Buddhist tradition). Badagnani (talk) 17:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring

It appears that we are having another problem with an edit war on these articles, I am disinterested in who is right or wrong. I would suggest a RfC on the issue. I have posted this message on both Badagnani's and Caspian's user pages.

I am posting the same message at both Badagnani's and Caspian Blue's talk pages, ordered alphabetically.

Please refrain from becoming involved in another edit war. If you cannot agree on a solution then stop editing now and I will request a neutral third party peer review for you.

I hope this will avert any more problems.

--Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 01:43, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, there is no edit warring, except bickering at the relevant talk pages.--Caspian blue (talk) 01:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Half dozen of one, six of another, but it is getting rather testy between you two and I think you two need a break. I personally dislike his continued weasel-like use of terms such as "blanking" in his edit summaries.

However, I do agree with Badagnani that the two articles really should be merged into one article. Remember, he and I are not exactly what would be called "beer buddies" either, so I would consider merging the two if I were you. I think that an RfC or third opinion would also agree that they are improper forks of the same or related subject and suggest they be merged. The Kor. Buddhist veg. cuisine article you created is a very good start and would really be better as part of the Kor. veg article cuisine. Please consider merging the two. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 02:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't think so. I can't develop "Korean vegetarian cuisine" because there is not much accessible information unlike Buddhist temple cuisine. If the two articles are merged into one, I bet Buddhist cuisine takes more than 90% of the contents. Korean cuisine itself is actually close to vegetarianism, such as namul, jeon, etc. Besides, if he fails to develop the article with reliable sources, WP:AFD would be right in order.--Caspian blue (talk) 02:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree that the Buddh. article should be merged with the veg. article. I'm leaning more towards including the information in Buddhist cuisine myself. Buddhism is of course highly relevant to the veg. article, but I don't think the former should be treated as a mere sub-article of the latter. If anything, I think it would be better if both editors worked on expanding their respective articles for a while before starting a discussion about merging the two.

Peter ^Isotalo 03:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - It was a single article, covering both aspects of Korean vegetarian cuisine, before the title was changed, then split into two articles, all without consensus being sought or obtained. Badagnani (talk) 03:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - Sorry, I have been really busy the last few weeks and was unable to contribute to this discussion. I'll have to look into the picture thing. As for the vegetarian cuisine and Buddhist Temple Cuisine being part of one vegetarian article, I very much disagree with them being in one article. The Buddhist Temple Cuisine has a distinct history and cultural relevance, "Vegetarian cuisine" on its own does not. Every culture has a vegetarian cookery portion to it (I hate even calling it vegetarian cuisine, as the term cuisine denotes a set of cultural characteristics that vegetarian cookery does not hold, but I digress as this is an issue I plan to address in the near future with articles using the term "cuisine"), but vegetarian is so vague, basically any dish without meat is vegetarian, most Asian cuisines vegetable based, so it would be another one of those endlessly vague articles I run into all the time, while Buddhist Temple Cuisine has a specific set of cultural attributes to it such as history, preparation, ingredients, serving/presentation, etc. All that said, I don't even think there is a need for a "Korean Vegetarian Cuisine" article as it is such a vauge subject that there would be so few sources about as it is such an unimportant aspect of the food culture as a whole, vegetable dishes are just part of the cuisine as a whole, it is not distinctly separate from the cuisine unlike the "vegetarian culture" found in the Western world. One would not write an article on "Vegetarian Indian Cuisine" (I would hope) as everyone should realize that that is just a part of their cuisine as a whole.Chef Tanner (talk) 13:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Reassessment? Help?!

Hey, I've put a lot of work into Odwalla, and I was wondering if someone could reassess its rating. It's start class right now. (I'm trying to get it up to GA, so first I'm going for B!).

Also, anyone who reads this is obligated to help me! So help! Gracias. Intothewoods29 (talk) 02:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I reassessed as a C class article, there is a list of suggestions and issues in the comments section of the WP Food banner. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 03:41, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Tabbouleh

A few weeks ago, I made a well-sourced edit to the Tabbouleh article which identified tabbouleh as a Levantine dish. This shouldn't be any big surprise to anyone, since tabbouleh along with hummus bi tahini, fattoush, etc. are classics of Levantine (i.e. Syrian/Lebanese/Palestinian/etc.) cuisine. I had previously presented this evidence on the Talk page (since an anon had reverted a previous unsourced edit of mine) and it was not rebutted. However, the anon has repeatedly removed this content [2][3] and replaced "Levantine" with "Arabic". Could someone please take a look at this article and help? Thanks, --Macrakis (talk) 23:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

"Levantine" seems accurate, as I don't think of this dish as typically Maghrebi or peninsular Arabian (although it may also be found in those places). Also, "Levant" would include Israel, and I believe the dish is typical of that nation as well. Badagnani (talk) 23:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

If you agree, could you please restore my content? I have reverted the anon's edits twice, and having a third party restore it would be better than my doing it. Thanks, --Macrakis (talk) 00:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Community forum on standards

Based upon the earlier discussion, I would like to suggest that the various Food and Drink projects develop a set of Manual of Style guidelines for use in articles under the auspices of this and the related WikiProjects and task forces. This would be similar to the MoS guidelines for biographies or law. What I am hoping to do is insure that an article concerning like topics are all set up the same way.

I have created these pages for that purpose:

• Wikipedia:WikiProject Food and drink/Article guidelines

Once a consensus has been reached, this page is where we will post the standards.

• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink/Article guidelines

Please discuss the standards on this page.

Upon a general consensus has been reached for each set of standards, we will submit it to the appropriate set of bureaucrats for a ratification discussion.

--Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 01:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Tagging Chemicals?

Why was hydroxypropyl methyl cellulose tagged by Food & Drink? Seems to be a mistake, since it's only a very minor additive in small quantities of food types (it's more used in pharmaceutics, building materials, paints, ceramics, and other industrial fields).

Vote at Patbingsu

Talk:Patbingsu#Vote

Hello, everyone. How are you in the humid and scorching weather. If you want to cool off the heat as seeing cool images, there is a good place to please your eyes. At Patbingsu, several editors including Mindme (talk · contribs), me, and Badagnani, and Kbrend have disputed over the inclusion of Mindme (talk · contribs)'s images to the article. The food is a very famous summer dessert comprised of red bean paste, shaved ice, fruits and others. Mindme's pictures have been included in the article[4][5], but better and diverse pictures come up. So if there is anyone want to see what patbingsu is and what images are presented on the talk page or meditating the dispute, please feel free to leave your input there. Thanks--Caspian blue (talk) 14:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Manganese in nutritionalvalue template

I added manganese in Template:Nutritionalvalue, so that we can now note the manganese content by specifying it into the template in our food articles, without having to include it as an option value. The RDI value I used is 2 mg. A nice task to do now is to find out articles about food with manganese and add the manganese content into their nutritionalvalue template (use variable manganese_mg). NerdyNSK (talk) 12:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

• On a related note, if you can help in finding out whether there are grapes with too high manganese content see Talk:Grape#Manganese_content_in_grape.27s_nutritionalvalue_template. NerdyNSK (talk) 12:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Roadkill

Is this in the scope of your project? But is there evidence of human consumption of a roadkill? Enlil Ninlil (talk) 07:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes there is, in many US states the highway department will sell freshly killed game animals to the public. There is also a running joke about the restaurants in the Southern US serving such meat. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 07:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Postage stamp gum

The Food and Drink bot tagged the page Postage stamp gum. Although that's pretty amusing, I removed the tag. Ecphora (talk) 18:58, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Coconut Crab

The Coconut Crab is tagged as food. I'd like to question the decision to tag a highly endangered species as food item. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.187.24 (talk • contribs)

Was/is it eaten as a food in any parts of the world? Badagnani (talk) 04:30, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, according to the article. Badagnani (talk) 04:31, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Process of merging two article?

Being completely new to this, I am wondering where there is a description of how to go about merging two articles. What I am looking at is "Snow cream" and "Snow (dessert)" which covers (in part) the same subject, where the first is somewhat incorrect. Shieldfire (talk) 12:20, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Pierogi (derelye) in Hungary

In the Hungary section of the article on Pierogi (derelye in Hungarian) we read: "Derelye is consumed primarily as a festive food for special occasions such as weddings. It was brought to Hungary by the merchant Andras Perl for his wedding with his wife Katalin in 1764. The Banki family, Katalin`s family, was so moved by the pierogi that now, pierogi are common at most Hungarian weddings." This unverified piece is a gradual development of the text originally added on June 7, 2006: [6]. The original text is a verbatim reproduction of the section on Hungary on pieroguys.com. This is the only place on the web where I can find Andras Perl and Katalin Banki in the pierogi (derelye) context (other than that they figure as co-authors in respectable scientific articles). Does anyone have any insights on (a) derelye being used as a wedding dish and (b) on the piece of folklore about Andras Perl and Katalin Banki in the 18th century? If not, I am inclined to delete this whole story and leave only the dry food facts about derelye. Please discuss below. --Zlerman (talk) 14:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• In the absence of any response from the community, the unverifiable statements were taken out on 23 September 2008. A less conspicuous statement on the role of derelye as festive food remains in the Hungary section of the article on Pierogi and still requires verification: any help will be appreciated. --Zlerman (talk) 01:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Pin Cherry as drink

There are a number of things I found you can do with the Pin Cherry, and I found when I was a high school student and not of real drinking age at the time, made wine. Living on a farm in Wisconsin, we had wild pin cherry and choke cherry trees grew along road sides near where I lived. A neighbor kid and I made wine from these two types of small wild cherries. Each one made a unique and flavorful wine. Both types of wines would be a joy for anyone to drink. If anyone has a hobby of homemade wine making, and have pin cherry trees growing nearby, I happily suggest that you give wine making of the pin cherry a try. Try the choke the cherry too. Bobbyr54 (talk) 19:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Does Physalis philadelphica = Physalis ioxocarpa as stated under Tomatillo and Physalis?

The articles on "Physalis" and the article on "Tomatillo- Physalis philadelphica" state Physalis ixocarpa and Physalis philadelphica are the same species. This is the first I've heard of this, all my books say the Tomatillo is Physalis ixocarpa while Physalis philadelphica is a somewhat less culinarily important species usually called Purple Ground Cherry or at times Wild Tomatillo (e.g.,Oxford Companion to Food-Davidson). While Tomatillo fruit (P.ioxocarpa) can be eaten unripe, I don't know if Wild Tomatillo(P.philadelphica) can be. There's a remote chance the difference could matter safety-wise.

Perhaps cross-pollination is possible hence the confusion.

(I am an enthusiastic amateur interested in unusual food, not a qualfied expert).

210.54.229.129 (talk) 01:45, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Purée Mongole

This article is a joke, surely? Abc30 (talk) 02:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The article is unsourced, may be unverifiable by reliable sources, and the dish may not be a notable one, but "Purée Mongole" as a pea-tomato soup is referred to in a number of sources, including the New York Times. --MCB (talk) 06:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It was a poor article with crappy prose and inappropriate tone, but the soup is real. I cleaned it up a little and referenced it. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 07:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Samosa, samsa, and so forth

There are three articles on en:Wiki dealing with what appears to be essentially the same dish: Samosa, Sambusac (Sambusak), and Sambousa. The Central Asian samsa and somsa are both redirected to Samosa, but somsa is not mentioned at all in this article, while samsa is mentioned in one sentence in the "History" section, without devoting any space to the culinary characteristics of samsa (as distinct from the samosa). Any suggestions about how to streamline all this? --Zlerman (talk) 07:33, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Like the setar and sitar, cognates don't always prove it's the same item, especially if they're from different cultures/languages. See also jiaozi, gyoza, and mandu. Badagnani (talk) 07:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you for these observations, but in practical terms, what do you suggest we do with samsa/somsa vis a vis samosa? Leave the redirect as is? Add content on samsa/somsa in samosa? Create a new article for samsa/somsa? --Zlerman (talk) 08:06, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the samsa and somsa. What are these, in which cuisines are they traditional, and how are they similar or different from the well known Indian samosa? Badagnani (talk) 08:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

We've got a very similar situation at Naqara, Naqareh, Nagara (Drum), Naker, and Kudüm. Badagnani (talk) 08:16, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I guess this means that I need to examine more closely the cultural and culinary characteristics of the various pasties and decide if the Central Asian samsa/somsa (Kazakh and Uzbek cuisines) continue to share the same bed with the Indian samosa or get a new article of their own. Thanks for your advice. --Zlerman (talk) 08:22, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, like the East Asian dumplings, or the Middle Eastern kettledrums which I mention above, that the samosa/sambusa/samsa, etc. are probably closely related, if not identical. There's no hard and fast way of doing this, but I'd lean toward separate articles if they're from different cuisines and different in recipe, size, shape, etc., of course with clear "See alsos" at each to let readers know about the others in the family. Badagnani (talk) 08:30, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Then you may have another variety found in east africa, where african and arab cuisine clash. And now of course also Indian and possibly other central asian cuisine is very common. (As in Sambousic,Samosa etc). --Shieldfire (talk) 17:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there's an Ethiopian one, which I eat sometimes when I eat out at Ethiopian restaurants. Badagnani (talk) 19:41, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Wrong tag???

I see that the Wiki Food/drink has been tagged to http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Methylisothiazolinone&action=edit. Methylisothiazolone is not used in food or drink so I am supposing the tag is in error. Fact123 (talk) 20:31, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

In an automated process, someone added tags for this wikiproject to all articles in Category:Preservatives even if they are not used as food preservatives. I've gone through and removed the tag from a dozen or so inappropiately tagged articles, but if anyone wants to double check me, please feel free. -- Ed (Edgar181) 19:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Food and drink

Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 22:42, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Squash (drink) needs your help

Squash (drink) has no cites and seems to be mostly a collection of personal observations and opinions. Has been tagged "needs additional citations for verification" since June 2008. Can anybody improve this? -- 201.53.7.16 (talk) 03:57, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Featured sound

Hi, dropping by with some good news that relates to your project: a prohibition-era drinking song was recently promoted to featured sound. Best, Durova^Charge! 18:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Crested Guineafowl

Hi, I think the crested guineafowl article has been wrongly tagged as a member of the food an drink category. The sole fact that an animal can be eaten is not enough to be added to this category, is it? So I suggest the tag to be removed.

Thanks, eboy (talk) 13:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Pending GA Delisting

The Hershey Company, an article within this project's scope, is currently undergoing a GAR for potential delisting due to it no longer meeting GA criteria 1-3 (well written, well referenced, and comprehensive). See Talk:The Hershey Company#GA Reassessment for the full breakdown. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 17:42, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Source material

Food and drink is admittedly not a sector of Wikipedia that I have edited before, but as an amateur cook and a Spaniard I have had a keen interest in taking paella all the way through a FAC. The major issue is finding reliable references for information on the food's history (otherwise, there are plenty of published sources on paella) - the reliability issue is a huge issue through FAC. I wanted to check here if anybody knew of any websites which have passed the "reliability test" on Wikipedia. Thanks! JonCatalán^(Talk) 07:27, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Great! We always need F&D FAs (it's infuriatingly the least represented topic at WP:FA)! I'm afraid I don't really know much about reliable sources for this kind of article, but you can try looking at the refs used by the other F&D FAs or asking at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. It looks like paella is a food that has a lot of cultural importance, so you can try consulting websites and books about traditional Spanish foods. I'm afraid I can't be of much use in this aspect, but good luck! I'd be more than happy to help with copyediting when the time comes! Cheers, Intothewoods29 (talk) 22:09, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I generally trust texts more than websites for sourcing research. The only viable websites for such research would have to be one written by a food anthropologist or sociologist that is noteworthy in their research. Otherwise you risk using sources from biased and non credible sources. the only other type of website I trust is a government sponsored website which Spain may have.--Chef Tanner (talk) 18:30, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to look over cooking books that I can find, but almost none mention anything about the history of paella and if they do it's a small blurb - hardly enough to write a FA-class article on the subject. Unfortunately, I no longer live in Spain so it's hard for me to search for sources in what would be the best place to do it (a Spanish book store). JonCatalán^(Talk) 18:35, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Some websites that you might try could be the Food Network and... hmm.. I can't find anything else. I'll look online some more when I have time. I'm afraid I don't have a lot of access to a lot of cookbooks. Cheers, Intothewoods29 (talk) 20:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Casu Marzu

Hey, David Fuchs wants to work on the article Casu marzu in preparation for April Fool's Day 2009. Anyone want to help? He's done some research, and it's a B-class article already. If no one wants to, I'll take the project on, even though I already have a couple of projects going. :) Intothewoods29 (talk) 21:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Persil, Persil Power and Persil Service - Wrong tag

The above articles had the WP:Food and Drink banner, which I've now removed and replaced with WP:Business & Economics banner on Persil Power and Persil Service, Persil already had the WP:Business & Economics banner. Kathleen.wright5 10:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Food additives etc. ==> need merging.

As I wrote at Food supplements, Talk: "We have, at least,

• Food supplements,
• Food additive,
• Food fortification,
• Dietary supplement,
• Food processing,
• Nutraceutical, and
• Nutrification (aka food enrichment). Surely some of these can disappear, and the small amounts of unique information can be moved to the remaining articles."

Added to list:

• Bodybuilding supplement

This is not exactly up my alley (I just find the situation annoying) so I hope someone feels the call. Such a discussion needs a central place, rather than bits spread to all the applicable talk pages. I hope that this thread will serve the purpose and I'll be leaving notes to that effect on those pages. Thanks, --Hordaland (talk) 12:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, 'twas my intention to start a discussion here. But it started on user talk pages, and I'll copy some of it here:

Hi. In regards to the merging of all the articles you mentioned on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink, do you mean to merge them all into one article? If so, which one, and what information needs to be kept? I can work on it, if that's what consensus determines. :) Intothewoods29 (talk)

I'd doubt that one would be enough. But the number we have (was it eight?) is just too many. One certainly wouldn't want to start arguments; the bodybuilders may want to keep doing their thing. Perhaps, ideally, there could be one with the overview and definitions, with spin-offs as deemed necessary. What do you think? --Hordaland (talk)

Well, it looks like Food fortification, Food supplements, and Nutrification could be put into Dietary supplement as subsections or incorporated into the article. I'm wary of getting rid of Food additive, Food processing, Nutraceutical, and Bodybuilding supplement because they seem like different ideas (and bodybuilding supplement is already pretty well cited). Let's see if anyone else comments on this. :) Intothewoods29 (talk)

--Hordaland (talk) 00:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Looks to me as if Nutrification defines itself as Food fortification, so why isn't the material over there? Then Food fortification has a merge box suggesting that it be merged with Food supplements, while Food supplements has a merge box suggesting that it be merged with Dietary supplement. We playing musical chairs here?

It sounds to me as though fortification is an Food additive (one among others) which is added by the Food processing industry, while the usual idea of a Dietary supplement is a vitamin or herb or whatever bought as pills in a bottle? And Nutraceutical sounds like much the same thing as Dietary supplements. While at Nutraceutical I discovered yet another article about a similar topic: Functional food, aka Medicinal food.

I don't know the solution, but there needs be some sort of index with definitions somewhere, methinks. --Hordaland (talk) 00:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I support Hordaland here. There's a lot of duplicated and semi-duplicated material in these articles that would undoubtedly benefit from some judicious merging and trimming.Vitaminman (talk) 09:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I favor merging Food fortification, Food supplements, and Nutrification which all involve adding ingredients to food. Dietary supplement is a bit distinct because it usually involves stand-alone products, but perhaps this could be merged too. The other topics, food additive, bodybuilding supplements, food processing, and nutraceutical, I think should remain separate. Deli nk (talk) 10:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Jeff Henderson

Hi, I just created a stub article for this chef, but I don't have time to expand it. If someone could help out, that would be great! Izzy007 Talk 22:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Few ?s: New Project & Templates

Does anyone here think it worthwhile to create a project or taskforce or whatever focused on people in the F&B industry? namely - chefs, winemakers, etc...etc...??? I think it would be good to split them off as those people will have a following whereas things like rubarb and knife are very different topics. Think of it like a "team specific" topic like the Wikipedia:WikiProject Boston Red Sox within the Wikiproject baseball. Also, i think the templates could use improvement... for example: Nobu Matsuhisa current restaurant list does not present information as effectively as it could/should. 71.56.118.64 (talk) 07:27, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Food service taskforce --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 07:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Paella article

You may want to keep an eye on this article. It seems to be having an edit war with one of the condtibutors having two seperate accounts (three total) that are being used to edit. Another editor just placed a POV tag on the article. Shinerunner (talk) 16:36, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

wrong tag

the Cordyceps page has been tagged as food and drink, as I can't see this as accurate, I'm taking the tag off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keithonearth (talk • contribs) 06:10, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

McCoys

Currently three articles on the same product, located at McCoys and McCoys Crisps and The Real McCoy's. As I'm not a member of this WikiProject I don't know which one should be the correct article, so though I'd let the professionals decide. Regards, GiantSnowman 17:39, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I created a merge discussion for the three articles, please feel free to participate. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 22:13, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

First conclusion after perusing the three articles: The Real McCoy's is a verbatim copy of McCoys Crisps. I am redirecting The Real McCoy to McCoys Crisps as a first (hopefully undisputed) step. I have decided to redirect "The Real McCoy" rather than the other way around because it seems to me that readers are more likely to search for "McCoys" or "McCoys Crisps" than "The Real McCoy" as a food item. If I am wrong, the final title can be changed in the end as nothing is being actually deleted. --Zlerman (talk) 05:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Second step: the information from the short article McCoys has been incorporated into the longer McCoys Crisps and an appropriate redirect McCoys==>McCoys Crisps has been added. It seems to me that we now need to decide if the final name should be McCoys or McCoys Crisps. I do not like "McCoys", because this name is used by many companies outside the food business (just try Googling for "McCoys" or "McCoy's"), so "McCoys Crisps" seems to be more appropriate for our purposes. However, the United Biscuits brand is called "McCoy's" on their web site, so that the word "crisps" is generic, and not part of the brand name. If we stay with "McCoys Crisps" we should eventually move it to "McCoys crisps" (with lower-case c in "crisps"). This seems to me the real point that needs to be discussed now (in addition to further editing and fine-tuning of McCoys Crisps). I wouldn't bother with the apostrophe in McCoy's and keep out apostrophe-free form McCoys. --Zlerman (talk) 06:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• I should stress that the original text of the two redirected articles (McCoys and The Real McCoy's) has been hidden, not deleted. It can be viewed in full by pressing "edit this page" on the two redirect pages. --Zlerman (talk) 06:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It's gonna be a DYK Halloween

The gang at DYK has started a subproject to generate DYK to be posted during October 31, 2008. The subproject/task force is at Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Halloween 2008 and twenty-four or so DYK articles (six per DYK Main page change) may fill up the four October 31, 2008 DYK Main Page posts. Food/candy plays a significant role at Halloween, so please feel free to contribute your talents to the efforts. Thanks. -- Suntag ☼ 16:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Modern entremets

I've been polishing up entremet the past few weeks, but I only have information on the medieval aspects of this dish. If anyone knows more about the development of the term from around 1500 and onwards, it would make a nice addition to the article. If you don't have the time to add info yourselves, I'd appreciate hints on sources that I could use to expand the article myself.

Peter ^Isotalo 11:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Saying hello

I hope all is well with the project. I have been really busy, I was recently recognized as a culinary judge with the American Culinary Federation in the last issue of their national magazine. I also took gold in a recent culinary competition with the ACF. I've also been working on a new class at my college called Modern Culinary Trends and Techniques which would fit right up the alley of many of you here in the project. Three weeks of healthy cooking techniques, one month of Asian cuisines, one month of Latin American cuisines, a week of Molecular Gastronomy and week of adapting comfort foods for the 21st cetunry fine-dining restaruant. Still trying to write my thesis as well, taking longer than it should. I hope to be back soon to help out with the project, until then happy editing.--Chef Tanner (talk) 00:31, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Project template looks broken

As discussed at Template talk:WikiProject Food and drink, the talk page template for this project is displaying "tan-space" above and below, as at Talk:Tim Horton and is cluttering up talk pages with its size. Hopefully someone will fix soon. Franamax (talk) 19:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I just looked at it and do not see anything like you describe. What browser are you using? I tested it with the Five major browsers and it looked perfectly normal to me. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 19:56, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Same conclusion here: looks OK in Talk:Tim Horton, Talk:Piti (food), Talk:Chuchvara, and others. I am using Mozilla Firefox 3.0.3. --Zlerman (talk) 01:46, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Tim Hortons

Tim Hortons has been nominated for a good article reassessment. Articles are typically reviewed for one week. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good article quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. Reviewers' concerns are here. Ruslik (talk) 09:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Sisal is not a food or drink

Sisal has been tagged as food or drink - not so, it is a coarse fibre used for making sacks, ropes, etc. There is an obtuse connection - tequila is made from a related plant - but not from sisal. Natural fibre (talk) 21:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

• Fixed. :) Intothewoods29 (talk) 22:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Introduction Statements

At the end of the introduction:

"Professional artisans of cooking are called chefs, while prep staff and line cooks prepare food items in a more systematic and less artistic fashion."

I find this to be a very misleading statement.

In a professional kitchen the chef has many duties and frequently find himself/herself unable to participate in much of the cooking action. Their duties are staffing, schedule, buying, dealing with suppliers, working with the budget, planning the menu, etc...

We all start at the most base level in a kitchen learning with experience and/or education.

There is no reason why a line cook or prep staff is not involved in the final presentation and often in my experience most cooks are directly involved with 'artistic fashion.' When people are introduced to culinary arts in an institution there is always a consciousness about color, presentation, height, flavor, portion control, etc... Making all cooks 'professional artisans.'

Dromepixie (talk) 13:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

What are you referring to?--Chef Tanner (talk) 14:55, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

It should be edited. I'm trying to figure out how to phrase a new sentence that can achieve the same function whilst being more clear about the reality of the modern brigade. Dromepixie (talk) 15:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

What article are you referring to?--Chef Tanner (talk) 18:34, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

"Yes, We Have No Bananas" is a song, not a food

Just because it contains a food word, it doesn't mean it's food. This tagging has made the article so much less useful. Jonsilver (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

It was categorized because it one time had a cat that referenced food. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 01:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

• Inappropriate banner removed. Can someone suggest an appropriate WikiProject for this article? --Zlerman (talk) 01:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. Put the Wikiproject Songs template on the article's discussion page. Intothewoods29 (talk) 02:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Merger of soutzoukos and churchkhela

I have proposed merging soutzoukos and churchkhela, two names for a confection consisting of strings of nuts dipped in thickened grape must and forming a sausage-like shape. Other editors have objected, preferring to have one article per local name/variant. I'd appreciate the input of other experienced food-and-drink editors on Talk:Soutzoukos and Talk:Churchkhela. Thanks, --macrakis (talk) 23:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the problem is that for a merged article there needs to be a main article with different sub-types. In this case their are two regional variants. So what would be the parent article be? Would you merge to soutzoukos or churchkhela, and why? If there were an article about strings of nuts dipped in grape confections, then a merge would be more practical. That's my two cents. IN any event, both articles leave room for improvement. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The lack of a unique English name for a topic should not preclude merger if the topics are substantially the same. Compare for example a kind of pan-Ottoman tripe soup called işkembe çorbası (Turkish), πατσάς (Greek), shkembe chorba (South Slavic). Hmm, I see that someone has created Shkembe chorba as a separate article, which is ridiculous; the content is the same, down to its use as a hangover remedy! --macrakis (talk) 06:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

So maybe this is a losing battle? Please examine the reality on the ground -- the actual practice on Wikipedia, in this project and also in other areas. I keep seeing this kind of thing all the time, and merging one little article will not solve the system-wide problem. Perhaps this is how people want Wikipedia to be. Perhaps this freedom of "silly duplication" is what makes electronic Wikipedia unique to users. --Zlerman (talk) 07:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

If you want to change Wikipedia policy on content forking, you'll have to make the argument there, not here. For now, Wikipedia policy is to merge articles covering substantially the same topic. I think it would be hard to maintain that soutzoukos and churchkhela are not substantially the same topic: a confection of strings of nuts covered with thickened grape must. Of course, if there are systematic local or regional differences, they can perfectly well be documented. --macrakis (talk) 13:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Please do not put words into my mouth: I do not want to change any policies. I am just being pragmatic. In any event, let's keep the discussion going (both here and on Talk:Churchkhela) and see what kind of a consensus emerges. --Zlerman (talk) 14:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

"Ice cream milk"

Here is a message from a new user that was inadvertently (?) posted on the project page:

• k4er5 iam looking for ice cream milk reciepe can anyone help me i do not want to know how to make ice cream i want to make ice cream milk. signature added User:k4er5 (talk) 17:19, 25 November 2008.

I hope this is not a bogus message and I am doing the right thing by reposting it to the talk page... --Zlerman (talk) 18:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

It probably exists. I've heard of ice cream and ice milk, but I don't know what ice cream milk is. Some kind of shake or malt? Hmmm...ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

From the ice milk article: "In the United States, the term (ice milk) is now virtually unknown. A 1994 change in Food and Drug Administration rules allowed ice milk to be labeled as low-fat ice cream.[1] Within months, the term "ice milk" virtually disappeared from store shelves." Ice milk appears to be ice cream made with low-fat milk. Maybe someone else knows how the recipe would differ? ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:49, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

As a side note I have had excellent ice cream made with coconut milk and agave sweetener. The recipe is popular among vegans and health foodies who don't like to eat refined white sugar and people who avoid dairy products.ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:51, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Food and drink vs. cuisine

Hello everyone, I'd like to address an issue that I have attempt to bring up in the past but have not heard a reply to. This issue is of particular interest to me because of my extensive research and work with a variety of cuisines. A cuisine has a distinct set of guidelines that is set by a number of cultural and physical constructs. There are a number of articles entitled cuisines, such as Cuisine of New York City, Cuisine of the Northeastern United States, Cuisine of Philadelphia etc that are not cuisines, but are articles on the food and drink of those regions. I would like to submit that these articles should be retitled Food and drink of New York City, Food and drink of the Northeastern United States, Food and drink of Philadelphia, etc. These places do not have a cuisine, they are missing the larger constructs of a codified culinary practice, education of the culinary constructs, a sociological basis that the entire region cooks in one cooking style over the areas just happening to have cities such as Cuisine of New York City that have a variety of cooking styles within the area. I'd love to open this up for debate. A country can have a cuisine, a city does not have a cuisine nor does a region of a country.--Chef Tanner (talk) 19:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

But there is indeed a style of "New York City" and "Philadelphia", and the title of "food and drink" is not succinct than "cuisine". --Caspian blue 19:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

This is a question that does not have a succinct answer.

Certain cities do have a cuisine associated with them, but not all. Examples:

• St. Louis, Missouri - St. Louis has a distinct cuisine style associated with beef and barbecue. In the US St. Louis style cuisine is a distinct cooking style with its own set of flavors and cooking methods that set it aside from other styles found in other regions.
• Los Angeles, California - It is the regional home of California Cuisine which born there.
• Paris, France - Paris has a distinct subset of French Cuisine, as seen in the movie Ratatouille which exemplified the culture and style of Parisian cuisine. Hong Kong and Beijing style cuisines also are specific subsets of Chinese cuisine that could be called cuisines unto themselves.

Now some cities are famous for certain dishes, and that is what I think you are pointing out. EG New York is famous for its pizza and Manhattan clam chowder, Chicago for its deep dish pizza and Philadelphia has its Philly cheese steak but these are not cuisines per say. These dishes do not make a civic or regional cuisine., Like most modern US cities, these cities feature a mixture of cultures and cuisines from across the globe.

The Cuisine of the Northeastern United States article is proper because of the gastronomic history of the region as you put forth in your Cuisine of the Thirteen Colonies article. The Northeast US does have its own particular set of traditions and dishes that makes it unique. The Cuisine of New York City article isn't an article at all but a list of the various multinational cuisines found in NYC and probably should be called List of cuisines in New York City, while the Cuisine of Philadelphia article is an historical article covering its unique dishes and its restaurants. We could possibly rename it History of food in Philadelphia.

I hope that muddies the water for you. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 20:52, 26

November 2008 (UTC)

I would actually argue that my article Cuisine of the Thirteen Colonies should be changed to Food and drink of the Thirteen Colonies. I only named it as such based upon the accepted nomenclature of the current standards of Wikipedia. Priscilla Parkhurst Ferguson identified a widely accepted model of a cuisine in her book Accounting for Taste: The Triumph of French Cuisine [7]. The four portions of the model include the Creation, done through the chef or cook, those of whom are the people who would design and prepare the food. Yes there are chefs in a city or region that prepare food, but the model states that there would be people who would identify with cooking the cookery of that region, is there a chef in Philadelphia that cooks that style of cookery only... realize that cheese steak or the like is not a style of cookery, it is a dish. But we do have chefs, and one "might" argue that there are chefs that create dishes based on the region, so I will allow that quadrant.

Production is a second quadrant, (kitchen, restaurant, and home). I'm from upstate New York, and I have lived in NYC and a number of other cities declared on Wikipedia as having a cuisine. Read the NYC cuisine article, it has nothing to do with a cuisine, but rather has to do with a number of regions of the city, with no homogeneity. Yes there are restaurants, food carts, and what not, but they are not a united in ideals, they just cook based on what is popular, not on what is know as a culinary standard.

Diffusion (codified cookbooks, magazine articles, novels, essays), a search on Amazon.com for Philadelphia cuisine finds nothing [8] that states a codified cuisine of the region. Please continue through all of the cities and states of the country, the books don't exist unless you goto New Orleans, one of the few actual cuisines we have in this country, Cajun/Creole. Codification is a singular significance to a cuisine, if people don't know what the dishes are in a succinct manner, then there are no dishes for that cuisine. There also needs to be more than one or two dishes.

Consumption is the last step of the model. This is based on the reader-consumer, or diner-consumer. In the USA, up until the last couple years, we had the Zagat guide and the AAA dining guide, both driven by the common-reader's opinion and vote. Other cultures and newly the USA, have the Michelin Guide which utlizes well trained guided critiques who advize the public on dining on a cuisine. Philadephia may have a newspare that advices on where to eat, but what is their critera? Is it established, or is it on the whime of the current editor of that column? That is not a standard, that is the current "fad".

This is an academically based model which has been accepted enmass. I myself am updating this model for my thesis, but until now this is one of the best accepted models I found in the industry. I do now argue that each city and region can have a number of dishes that they are known for, but that does not mean that those dishes make a cuisine, they are just part of the food poriton of the "food and drink" found in the region. In conclusion, I argue that the majority of the cuisine articles that are not named after a country should be renamed "Food and drink of ..."--Chef Tanner (talk) 00:07, 27 November 2008 (UTC)