Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography/Serial Killer task force/Archive 1

Rename?

Am I the only person who finds that "Serial Killer Task Force" sounds bizarre for an encyclopedia? It sounds like a name for a SWAT team or something. Wouldn't "Serial Killer Work Group" be better? Also, why "serial killer" for a group examining mass murders, school shootings, etc as well? "Multiple Homicide Work Group" would be a less sexy sounding name, but more serious-sounding and less misleading, imho. Bacrito 04:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I too would like to see this group renamed. Especially in the wake of the Fort Hood shooting, tags to this group are being applied to single-incident (non-serial) mass killers. I believe that this group has much to offer, and should not be scoped too narrowly. - Johnlogic (talk) 23:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

The scope of this group includes "The goal of this task force is to update and maintain all articles relating to serial killers, mass murderers and spree killers." The Fort Hood shooting would fall under this group - once he is convicted. Meanwhile, it most certainly can be covered under WP:CRIME, but not WP:CRIMINAL. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:44, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Juan Corona and Bible John

I think we should collaborate on these two. They're quite interesting. ۝ ۞ ░ 03:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Prerequisite taskforce training?

Is there a process you guys have that interested people can go through to get the skills needed to competantly edit articles related to this? It has a lot of interesting facets, like things inspired by games/movies and vice versa, them making movies and fiction about or inspired by it, like how the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Psycho were by that one guy with the skin. I'll try to make some time to read through those collection websites specific to serial killing (though they're rather large, it's a bit intimidating) and I've had a profile on crimelibrary for a while though I admit I've not made much (any?) use of it. I tend to like to monitor freaks and those who freak out on them so in my perusal of strange characters it would be neat to know the police and psychology profiling things so you know what to look out for and separate the genuinely good people from those who just posture as good. Even if they aren't serial killers, I feel like people who wear false faces to commit criminal and/or immoral acts to subvert what seems like honest organization, probably share common themes so that by learning one you would gain personal evaluation skills that could apply to finding liars and psychos of all sorts amongst all peoples. Tyciol 15:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Tommy Lynn Sells

Wikipedia gets a bad rap sometimes and I can see why. To the person who placed the information regarding Tommy Lynn Sells into the template, your credibility is called into question when it is realized that you do not know your state abbreviations (i.e. MO is Missouri, not Montana, as you had placed into the article). Please scrutinize your submissions more carefully. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.244.236.108 (talk) 00:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

update mitchell johnson (murderer

this guy is definatley not made out for crime.Sickero (talk) 10:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Trevor Joseph Hardy

Hi, I'm not sure how to join this taskforce (yeah, does sound a little odd) but I thought you might want to know I wrote the article on Trevor Hardy, a British serial killer so unknown I had to scrape the barrel for details. I started the Levi Bellfield page but it was much improved by the time he was caught, thanks entirely to other users.DarkPassenger (talk) 19:25 BST, 13 April 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 18:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your addition. To join the project, go here and follow the directions. Wildhartlivie (talk) 19:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Infobox template question

Whilst working on the Jack the Ripper article, I noticed that the infobox entry appears to be filled with bold text. I cannot seem to find the specific template that is being used, as I would likely go there to remove the bold texting from the instruction. Halp! - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I would really like some input, as my only other alternative is to remove the template altogether fromt he article and substitute one more in keeping with the nature of an encyclopedia. I will wait until Monday. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 00:13, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Right. Since I asked over three weeks ago for assist, no one gets to be pitcha tantrum when i remove the template. Thanks. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 17:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Logo

The logo for the template on all this task force's pages had no source information, and had been tagged as such for over two weeks, so has been deleted. I stuck Image:Sktf.jpg in there for now until you guys can find a more preferable image that isn't invalid on Wikipedia. Neıl 龱 10:42, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme

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Articles flagged for cleanup

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Tony Costa

I would like to request that someone involved with this project write an article about the Cape Cod serial killer Tony "chop chop" Costa. He is the subject of Leo Damore's In His Garden and an essay by Kurt Vonnegut. Maria Flook mentions him in her book about the Christa Worthington murder but it's clear she never read the former. The empty graves of three of the girls are still visible in the Truro woods and are popular attractions for a certain kind of high school student. Certainly all this adds up to notability. 72.72.24.130 (talk) 03:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Transferred to WP:RA. Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Serial killer-related

Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7. We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations. A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible. We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 23:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Serial killer infobox instructions appear to be incorrect

I've been following the infobox instructions on this project page and was recently notified of several things by a fellow Wikipedian. 1) Per the WP:MOSFLAG: "Flag images, especially flag icons in biographical infoboxes, should not be used to indicate birth or death places, as this may imply an incorrect citizenship or nationality." and 2) per MOS:UNLINKDATES: "The linking of dates purely for the purpose of autoformatting is now deprecated." I will update the template instructions in a day or two if no one has any objections. --*momoricks* (talk) 21:40, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I see no reason not to update the instructions. Wildhartlivie (talk) 02:03, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your input, Wildhartlivie. I've updated the instructions. --*momoricks* (talk) 04:03, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles article review

I will be opening a sub-page with a listing of articles related to this project which have been selected, in order to review them for inclusion. Please go to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Criminal Biography/Serial Killer task force/Wikipedia 0.7 article review for the listing and issues. Thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 08:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Note moved here from List of serial killers by country talk page

anyone have enough info about "Paul Stephani" dubbed the "weepy-voice killer" who killed 3-4 women in the St. Paul/Minneapolis, Minnesota area? it was an episode of A&E's "Cold Case Files" (which is listed on that article page) but no Wikipedia page exists about him specifically being a serial killer, nor is he listed as one on other related articles. he ended up confessing all his crimes before dying of cancer. these crimes were during 1982 time-frame when he was about 37. i found articles about him on the internet but not here. perhaps an article can be (will be) created about him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Funwisconsinguy2007 (talk • contribs) 23:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC) I will reply to Funwisconsinguy2007 on his talk page. --momoricks ^talk 01:13, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Ipswich 2006 serial murders

This article has recently passed the GA review process and I have requested a peer review to see in what ways it could firther be imporved. Your comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Million_Moments (talk) 11:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Boone Helm, "The Kentucky Cannibal"

I won't even try to provide a summary of Helm's career and travels, but for anyone curious there's lots of webpages about him. I'm not handy with writing bios, still less criminal bios - this one's full of lurid details which I'd say need senstive handling - , but it's such an, er, interesting story and it's connected to various other historical bios in the Far West that I'm hoping someone at this task for ce might decide to take it on. Didn't see an "article request" section on your project page so posting this here.Skookum1 (talk) 23:56, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Patrick Purdy & Stockton massacre

Would it be ok, if I'd merge the biographical part of the, now redirected, article about Patrick Purdy into Stockton massacre? (Lord Gøn (talk) 18:04, 17 January 2009 (UTC))

I can't really say yes it is or no it isn't. It's unfortunate that the deletion review for Patrick Purdy was never posted to this page to allow others to weigh in on the discussion. I personally can't see that the consensus was to merge the article to start, there was little discussion and the split seems to be 3 for keeping/not redirecting or merging to 3 to redirect or merge. I'm not convinced there was a consensus since it was relisted twice and the results are split. Meanwhile, as you noted, there needs to be a consensus at the Stockton massacre page. I'm not sure who to contact about the closure of the deletion request, except the person who closed it. If you can get it reopened, then I'd urge that any new discussion be posted here. Wildhartlivie (talk) 23:38, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I had a little discussion with the one who executed the merging/redirecting here, and he advised me to use the talk page of the target article to discuss the matter. But before I engage once more in fruitless discussions with people who'd like to see even the name of Purdy erased from the article I thought I'd bring up the problem here first. So, what do I have to do to reopen the discussion? (Lord Gøn (talk) 01:56, 18 January 2009 (UTC))

You might try asking at WP:Deletion review to see if they have suggestions. It did not seem to me that the result of the discussion was to do anything with the article. I don't personally see why pertinent biographical information can't be included, but then I don't see why the biography of a killer whose actions were notable has to be deleted or merged either. Wildhartlivie (talk) 02:23, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

The whole story is a real odyssey. I've asked an admin about the problem and he told me to discuss the matter with User:MZMcBride, who closed the AfD, or, if this fails to bear a result to resort to WP:Deletion review. Well, I've talked to MZMcBride and he left a message at Stockton massacre here, I guess, to incite a discussion about merging the content or not.
Feel free to drop by and state your opinion. (Lord Gøn (talk) 18:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC))

Request for help on Gareth Penn entry

I'm hoping that editors here can help on the Gareth Penn entry, which is part of the Serial Killer Task Force and has long had a grade of "B". After having several of his edits reversed, User:Bali ultimate in one day virtually destroyed the entry, which is two years old, has had plenty of vetting, and derives the bulk of its factual information from online information catalogs like those at Zodiackiller.com; written publications; newspaper articles; public records; and the like. When I left this note on User_talk:Bali_ultimate - Bali ultimate: - - Though I'm sure your repeated attempts to delete a section of this entry are well-intentioned, they are not helpful. - From the note you left, you clearly aren't familiar with the source of the entry, or why that section is in it. - This entry was put together by people who know both the subject and the case well. Please do your homework - before you attempt major changes like this. And if there's something you don't understand in an entry, you are more than - welcome to suggest a clarification, or explain why you don't understand it, on the Talk page, rather than simply deleting - the section. Thanks. Bankscover (talk) 04:20, 25 January 2009

...he promptly deleted it, and proceeded to whittle away. In doing so, he violated such Wikipedia good practices as: Communicate: If in doubt, make the extra effort so that other people understand you, and you get a proper understanding of others. Being friendly is a great help. It is always a good idea to explain your views; it is less helpful for you to voice an opinion on something and not explain why. Explaining an opinion helps in convincing others and reaching consensus. Discuss edits: The talk page is particularly useful to talk about edits. If one of your edits has been reverted, and you change it back again, it is good practice to leave an explanation on the talk page and a note in the edit summary that you have done so. The talk page is also the place to ask about another editor's changes. If someone queries one of your edits, make sure you reply with a full, helpful rationale. Make proposals: New proposals for the article can be put forward for discussion by other editors if you wish. Proposals might include changes to specific details, page moves, merges or making a section of a long article into a separate article. No question the Gareth Penn entry has and had problems, which reasonable editors have worked to correct over the past two years. But those of us who put it together are alarmed that editors with no expertise on a subject can so cavalierly delete most of an entry. Given that fact, any help that editors here can provide would be greatly appreciated. Look back to before January 25, 2009 to see how much has been deleted. Bankscover (talk) 04:16, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Bankscover, this looks like an issue that should to be taken to Wikiettiquette alerts or the administrators' edit warring noticeboard. momoricks (make my day) 06:22, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

United States only content?

If all the serial killers included on these pages are to be of US serial killers, I think it should be specifically expressed. I was looking for some statistics to see if the US had more serial killers per capita than other countries and found the Serial Killer page only talked of serial killers in the US. I thought I would leave this note for future editors as I don't know how to edit a page nor do I have the qualifications to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.243.107 (talk) 22:18, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

What is contained on Wikipedia is what editors have contributed. The project isn't only for serial killers from the US, there are articles on serial killers/mass murderers from many countries. While more article may be on US, that may be because contributors are either from the US or are more interested in serial killers in the US. I don't know if you will find those statistics here. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The List of serial killers by country provides an idea of what serial killer articles are on Wikipedia. momoricks (make my day) 23:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, it is incorrect to say the Serial killer article only gives examples of those from the U.S. It includes Harold Shipman, John Bodkin Adams, Liu Pengli, Gilles de Rais, Countess Elizabeth Báthory, Thug Behram, Jack the Ripper and Joseph Vacher. momoricks (make my day) 23:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

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Source request

Hi. Not sure how active your project is, but I am in need of assistance from someone who has seen one or both of H. H. Holmes: America's First Serial Killer and America's Serial Killers: Portraits in Evil. The Communications Committee received an e-mail indicating that the article H. H. Holmes infringes the copyright of the first, while the latter is evidently infringed upon by Albert Fish. I have neither film, which makes it difficult for me to evaluate the veracity of these concerns or the extensiveness of any issues. Anyone here happen to have access to these? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I have not seen either of those documentaries however, with all due respect, that claim is specious and (with apologies) crap. The entire article Albert Fish is clearly not a copyright violation of a film or documentary, and not specifically America's Serial Killers: Portraits in Evil.. It would help immensely to know what parts of the articles are being disputed as copyright violations.

Everything I can find on America's Serial Killers: Portraits in Evil. indicates it was released on DVD in January 2009 [1]. This article has remained relatively unchanged (see version last edited on July 22, 2009), mostly having stylistic changes, since September 2, 2007, not long after it was first designated as a good article [2]. The article is fairly well referenced, indicating where the content was obtained. If a documentary released in January 2009 is too close in content to an article that was designated a good article in February 2007, I would suggest another explanation should be considered.

The history on H. H. Holmes is not as clearly delineated, but I think the history shows a slow and developing progression of the article. These two articles are about persons who acted a long long time ago and sources tend to be very similar about such persons. Since the two documentaries are produced by different persons at different points of time, but perhaps one person is seeing such issues in both articles, my first inclination is to doubt the copyright issues of the Holmes article as well. Wildhartlivie (talk) 20:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I've been reading up on the film America's Serial Killers: Portraits in Evil, and it seems that the filmmakers also use snippets of various old films that may still be within copyright without giving credit, which makes the idea that they may have taken from Wikipedia without credit pretty, well, credible. I'm trying to find out if this 10 hour miniseries was aired anywhere before its release on DVD in January 2009, but so far I haven't nailed that down. If we verify that the similarities the letter-writer noticed predate the film, we can safely clear this one. Without further substantiation, it'll clear anyway, just more slowly.

The Holmes one is a little more difficult, in that it is possible that the letter-writer saw a legitimate infringement in one and then, recognizing similarities in the second, detected a pattern where none exists. I stand a chance of getting my hands on that film, which is available for rent at a local video store (but not in at the moment), but if the correspondent responds identifying problematic passages and I can verify natural evolution, I won't have to watch it. :) I've already read Harold Schechter's book on Holmes, and that's pretty well all the Holmes coverage I ever needed. (I love Schechter's mysteries.)

I really appreciate your feedback and assistance with this one. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 10:44, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I was certainly hoping that the Holmes one would be easier. I've not looked as deeply as you, most likely, but I'm struck by how similar the layout is described (Click title) to that of a book I have from Time-Life in its structure and grouping. I have every confidence this will be resolved happily. Thanks! Wildhartlivie (talk) 17:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Just to let you know, the letter-writer responded with a single problematic sentence in H. H. Holmes which investigation suggests evolved here naturally. He wasn't able to provide an example from Albert Fish. Although I believe that our letter-writer was operating in good faith, the copyright templates have been removed from both articles. Again, I appreciate your help here. This one was a bit weird. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 11:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I was certain there is no copyright violation here, at least on our part. It did raise questions to me about the other direction, but... Wildhartlivie (talk) 17:44, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Terrorists?

Hi
Since there is discussion at Talk:Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi#Serial killer wikiproject?, are terrorists in the scope of this task force? Since Muhammed Atta and Osama bin Laden aren't, I assume not?
Amalthea 14:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Responded on that talk page. Wildhartlivie (talk) 19:06, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Thankee :) Amalthea 19:14, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

"Gay serial killers" or "LGBT serial killers" category

Shouldn't we create this category considering that there are a lot of LGBT serial killers including Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, Aileen Wuornos, Ronald Dominique, Dennis Nilsen, etc, etc. --190.50.86.22 (talk) 02:19, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily. It is covered by other categories. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Template merger proposal

See Template talk:Infobox mass murderer. Thanks! Plastikspork _―Œ^(talk) 00:09, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Abuse excuse or explanation?

There is a long history of child abuse in the background of most if not all serial killers, mass murderers and spree killers. In many cases this has increased when they were sent to reform school. This has been confirmed by many psychologists and former members of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit. It has often been argued as an excuse for lighter sentences but rarely presented to the public as a major contributing cause to more serious violence. There are plenty of academic sources to improve the coverage of this. Some of this can be added to Wikipedia if it’s done right. In most cases it may involve listing the abuse they received before they became killers however in some cases when there is work by qualified psychologists and former members of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit cause can be argued. Understanding the root causes of crime can help people understand what can be done to prevent it. Would there be any objection to adding this to the to do list? I know some of this has already been done but there are more that could be done. Good day Zacherystaylor (talk) 16:15, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

WP 1.0 bot announcement

This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the WP 1.0 assessment system. On Saturday, January 23, 2010, the WP 1.0 bot will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's summary table will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the WP 1.0 project homepage. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:53, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The Zodiac Killer's Identity?

Here is a website that shows how Arthur Leigh Allen stated that he was the Zodiac Killer. It also has the answer to the 'My Name Is' cipher inside of it. http://www.opordanalytical.com/articles/Zodiac.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.132.147.42 (talk) 02:14, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but that is quite a bit away from what the focus of WP articles should address. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:45, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

The author of this website at opordanalytical.com has "after further investigation ... concluded that Arthur Leigh Allen was not the Zodiac Killer." He doesn't say what in his "investigation" caused him to change his mind. Unless someone says otherwise, I'm going to delete this entire entry in a few weeks.--TL36 (talk) 02:48, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

You're going to delete what entry? Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:46, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Infobox

Ok, all I've been doing is placing the infobox where needed. It seems though that the one on the taskforce page is a bit outdated. "sentence" should be there instead of "penalty", "Convicted" instead of "charge"... Where can we check the infobox parameters ? Zubrowka74 (talk) 02:07, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind, I found it. I'll update the page. Zubrowka74 (talk) 02:56, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Erm, it isn't appropriate to go in and change parameters without discussing it here first. Being bold is one thing, inflicting your POV on the infobox is a drastic thing that should never be undertaken without consensus. Wildhartlivie (talk) 11:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Erm, the parameters for the infobox listed on the page were not working. This is not a POV but a fact. I just updated the information with the one found on the infobox page. 15:48, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Then the proper thing to do is bring whatever non-working problems you note to this page and allow project members to help work it out. There is no support to just forge ahead and make wholesale changes. What precisely wasn't "working"? You removed vital information such as place of death and the place for alt text which is likely something a newer editor would know nothing about. Please explain yourself here. Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:48, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I think there is a misunderstanding here, because I added the exact version of the Template:Infobox serial killer page. The version on the SKTF page WAS missing the "alt", "deathplace" and "conviction" parameters, and had "penalty" instead of "sentence". If you check the history I actually restored them. In my reasoning, if the Infobox page was already the result of consensus, copying the right information wouldn't be a major change. Otherwise I would have used the talk page. Sorry if this caused any distress. Zubrowka74 (talk) 14:58, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

So the template on the project page still needs an update. The parameters, taken from the infobox page, are as follow :

{{Infobox serial killer
| name        = 
| image       = 
| caption     = 
| alt         = 
| birthname   = 
| alias       = 
| birth       = 
| location    = 
| death       = 
| deathplace  = 
| cause       = 
| conviction  = 
| sentence    = 
| victims     = 
| beginyear   = 
| endyear     = 
| country     = 
| states      = 
| apprehended = 
}}

Can I put the accurate information back now ? zubrowka74 17:41, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

So, if no one objects, I'll update this tomorrow. zubrowka74 14:38, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

reason for revert please ?

Yes, I'd like to see you rationale behing you last revert, Wildhartlivie. The data on this page is wrong, period. Please go read the infobox documentation. I waited for a discussion right here and no one replied. Are we going to let this page drift into obsolescence ? zubrowka74 17:51, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I was at List's trial.

I know this doesn't fit into the proper way to be inserted on the official page, but I tell you, I attended about an hour of List's trial for a class I was taking at Ocean County (New Jersey) College and my Criminal Justice major in the Spring of 1990. List was brought in handcuffs, and I remember thinking, "Couldn't they just let him walk in the courtroom without all this? He's was an old man. and very frail in appearance, and looked like my friends' grandfathers. One false move, it was clear to me, he'd be brought down by one of weakest guards! I guess when you're a mass murderer, things go along to protocol. I was a seven-month old baby when List did his crimes, and a June senior in high school when he was caught. I read every book. It's such an intriguing case. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.3.112.32 (talk) 02:54, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

My visit past the "List" home.

I had summer friends (I'm from Seaside Heights, home of Jersey Shore, so please don't crack on me, I've heard enough) who lived in Westfield. We drove right up to the new home (the list house burned in the early 70's). We were pulled over by the cops almost instantly, and I think he let us go because I wore my heart on my sleeve, "We're only here officer, to drive by the list place. I have paper due in Criminal Justice." I don't know if should have hauled us in, or just laugh at us and let us go, as he did. I remember there was an orange thing stabled high on one of the trees, clearly from List era, that told us: you park, you pay. I was just lucky, but I think of the incident all the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.3.112.32 (talk) 03:23, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Billy the Kid

There is discussion at Billy the Kid about merging and redirecting Ollie P. Roberts. Any input would be great.--Adam in MO Talk 08:50, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Charles Whitman

Hello,

I am currently doing a translation in french of this article. On the discussion page, it seems that there are suggestions to improve it but I cannot find them. Are they in the archives (I am not interested in reading all of it) ? Is there somewhere a list of these suggestions ?

I post my question here because I cannot edit the discussion page (it seems that my account works only on fr.wikipedia.org).

Thank you, Mahogaia (talk) 16:07, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposed merger and page move

There is a proposal to merge Fred West and Rosemary West into a single article entitled Fred and Rosemary West. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 03:25, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Spree killer infobox: remove killings, injured, and weapons

Discussion and RFC here [3] Noloop (talk) 03:28, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

my question is, did henry lee lucas, ever in any of his discusions, ever mention about a girl that he stalked for the whole day,along route 10, but she got away???? he lost out on killing this girl,when she was able to get away from him at a resturant parking lot,he was being hassled by two men who did not like the way henry was looking at their wives, this girl very wisely saw her chance to get as far away from him as possible,she was able to loose him in a town called LAKE CITY, FLORIDA. this happened in the early 1980's and if so she can to this day tell you what the guy was wearing, driving ,can relive the day like it was yesterday! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.85.93.103 (talk) 01:02, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Speed Freak Killings

just created article for the Speed Freak Killings, but i am not completely sure the article shouldnt be 2 articles about the two men. In terms of information, probably only enough for 1 article, but i tend to not like to combine multiple notable subjects into single articles if possible.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 06:51, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Robert Ben Rhoades

somebody could make a wikipage for him. StillTrill (talk) 18:38, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• 'Torture chamber' trucker sentence to life in prison
• Houston trucker pleads to two capital murder counts

also David Alan Gore doesnt have a wikipage.

• David Alan Gore: Florida serial killer executed by lethal injection after string of rapes and murders in 1980s | Mail Online

Henry Lee Lucas POV pushing

I thought this case might be of interest for you people in the task force. The article used to present evidence - reasonable and consistent, as far as I could tell - that Lucas' confessions to the record 600 murders were wildly exaggerated and partly the result of police malpractice. An anon user 173.169.137.142, editing the article since October 2011, seems determined to push the theory that the confessions were, in fact, true - as far as I can see, mostly by adding unsourced claims and by removing or changing the existing sourced ones. I have just reverted his edits once, "symbolically", but I have no intention of dealing with the issue any further. And since 173 remains very active in editing the article to this very day, I assume he will simply reinstate his edits and will generally have his way with the article in the future - unless someone from the task force is willing to deal with the issue, that is. Regards, --91.148.130.233 (talk) 23:18, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I forgot to mention that the article Ottis Toole is related to the topic and is also being edited by 173.169.137.142 to support his view on Lucas' murder count.--91.148.130.233 (talk) 01:11, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Elias Abuelazam

Hi everyone. Please help me make Elias Abuelazam a good article, I just nominated it today. Thanks in advance and Happy USA Independence Day! TomCat4680 (talk) 20:38, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Tables of victims

Couple of interesting discussions on whether it is appropriate to list non-notable victims of crime on serial killers' pages. I would argue that WP:NOTMEMORIAL applies, and there may also be WP:BLP considerations. They are at Talk:2012 Aurora shooting#Tables appropriate? and Talk:Fort Hood shooting#Listing the victims' names. At the latter it has been argued that as several aricles on serial killers includ such lists, they all should, an argument I disagree with. I would seek consensus here that such lists are not appropriate unless the people on the list fulfil notability in themselves. Se what you think. --John (talk) 22:37, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

David Parker Ray

An IP editor has raised issues on Talk:David Parker Ray claiming that the article is full of errors (see subject "This article is nearly 100% erroneous"). I don't know enough on the subject to assess the accuracy of his complaints or their basis. If any SKTF members have information that would help, please chime in there. TJRC (talk) 21:22, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

===I am not a SKTF member yet, but I am a criminal defense lawyer in the county where Judge Mertz tried this case. I don't know the family background, but the discussion of the investigation, trial and aftermath is accurate in my opinion. The article could be better written. Ray was convicted of brutal sexual torture of one woman before she escaped, the instrument of his murders was recovered, and Ray died in prison without any attempt to convict him of killing up to 60 women according to codefendants. Certainly a notable serial killer. Conviction of a series of murders cannot be a prerequisite to SK consideration: prosecutors don't want to spend a lot of money and energy trying to prove more cases once the suspect is already behind bars for life. See e.g. Robert Ray Fry. Unproven lore comes with this territory. Steve Aarons (talk) 03:17, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

added two from English female murderers category within existing Wikipedia

the two following murderesses satisfy the base criteria 3+ murders to be included in female Serial killers category: Beverley Allitt Mary Ann Britland — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arildnordby (talk • contribs) 18:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

added two from English female murderers category within existing Wikipedia

the two following murderesses satisfy the base criteria 3+ murders to be included in female Serial killers category: Beverley Allitt Mary Ann Britland — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arildnordby (talk • contribs) 18:49, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Female Serial Killers "Rare" vs. Ignored?

I do original research, so I will not edit the pages. Just want to point out that the claim "female serial killers are rare" is based on old info. Peter Vronsky's book "Female Serial Killers" lists 140 cases. My research has turned up 600 so far. Wikipedia has a scanty selection. Wiki editors in this task force may wish to use the following source which contains hundreds of cases not on Wikipedia: Index: Female Serial Killers http://unknownmisandry.blogspot.com/p/index-female-serial-killers.html 67.247.28.202 (talk) 19:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)St. Estephe 12/18/12

I think this is a very good idea! First off: As of now, only 58 women are listed in the Female Serial killers category.

The following tasks might be done: a) Check which of "Vronsky's" killers who have entries already, but are not included in the Category. b) Use Vronsky's book as reference for the remainder of his 140, and include those. c) See which of unknownmisandry's additional perpetrators who already have entry at Wikipedia, and should be joined to the category. d) Try to find mention of other of unknownmisandrys perpetrators in peer-reviewed books/journals. Arildnordby (talk) 11:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, I believe you are the first to agree, unknownmisandry, that a research blog and an encyclopedia have different roles in that the immense value of a research blog is to dig up old evidence, but that an encyclopedia cannot include that prior it being sifted by an outside expert. For example, take the case of industrial baby killer Mrs. Holmen. (I've heard of her before). Should she be included in an encyclopedia on the sole basis of a single newspaper report? I feel that in HER case, we need a Swedish-speaking expert who at the very least can inform about the later developments in the case, for example police reports/court records. Those might very well exist, but in comparison: If we ONLY had a single newspaper report of Jack the Ripper, would he have been noteworthy and verifiable enough to include in Wikipedia? I think not..

Thus, in my view at least, your blog can be an extremely valuable starting point for further research, or,( for encyclopedic purposes even better), finding already done and peer-reviewed research. Keep up the good work! (That I disagree with you that, for example, professional producers/procuresses of poison should be counted as "serial killers" in general doesn't detract from my appreciation. In my view, those procuresses are in the position of hired accomplices to murder and/or even hired assassins in their own right, and whether male or female, they do not belong in the serial killer category.) Arildnordby (talk) 11:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Female serial killers are indeed rare, which is a statement based on comparing them to male serial killers. Male serial killers very much outweigh female serial killers. And this information is not only based on Peter Vronsky's book. Blogspot.com is not a WP:Reliable source, while information from there can be reliable and just needs a better source to support it. Flyer22 (talk) 20:47, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Added 23 in "Female serial killers" category from Wikipedia

Invaluable help from unknownmisandry blog; have added those that appear in peter vronskys 2007 book AND already have independent Wikipedia entries to category Female Serial Killers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arildnordby (talk • contribs) 16:53, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

For those wishing critical reexamination, here's my additions:

Ursinus, Patty Cannon, Catherine Wilson, Margaret Waters, Mary Ann Cotton, Flannagan sisters (Black widows of Liverpool),Sarah Makin, Amelia Dyer, Sach and Walters, Martha Rendell, Enriqueta Martí, Amy Archer-Gilligan, Martha Wise, The Angel Makers Nagyrev, Daisy Louisa C. De Melker, Anna Marie Hahn, Marie Besnard (acquitted), Mary Elizabeth Wilson, Delfina, María, Carmen & Maria Luisa de Jesús González, Charlene Gallego, Suzan Barnes Carson, Cynthia Coffman, Blanche Taylor Moore, Karla Homolka, Betty Neumar Arildnordby (talk) 17:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I've just reverted your addition of that category to Debora Green (not mentioned in Vronsky's book) and am considering reverting it from Martha Wise (I'm unable to verify the coverage of her in Vronsky's book). Please note that a personal blog, even one that covers a lot of cases, is not a reliable source, either for its own opinions or for what a book says. This blog, in particular, appears to be operating with a very distinct point of view: that women oppress men, and attention should be drawn to that as often as possible, even if it contradicts other reliable sources (note the tagline on the blog, ""FACTS which contradict what is taught in the universities and which even run counter to the assumptions made by critics of misandry."). Vronsky's book may be a reliable source in defining female serial killers, but at least one of the taggings you did that came through my watchlist is not covered in that book. I would be much more comfortable if you were handling this matter by finding sources for each woman being classified as "a serial killer" and adding them in prose to the articles (and then as a category as well), rather than going down a blog's list and adding categories that may or may not be accurate. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:12, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

For others, also see this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 20:47, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Update on that discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 21:59, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Merge discussion for John Allen Muhammad

An article that you have been involved in editing, John Allen Muhammad , has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 14:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

List of serial killers in the United States

Hi. Can someone here please start adding references to this list, per WP:STANDALONE? Right now, the list is in violation of WP:BLP for every one of these serial killers who is still alive when a reference isn't given. Many thanks. StevenJ81 (talk) 12:04, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Boston Strangler/Albert DeSalvo

An article that you have been involved in editing, Boston Strangler/Albert DeSalvo, has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you.--dashiellx (talk) 18:41, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Albert Fish's GAR

Albert Fish, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. GamerPro64 02:29, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Fork article or Redirect to Original Night Stalker?

Goleta serial killings.. can someone please check this 2009 print source about DNA not matching. Thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

GAR

Zodiac Killer, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Dana boomer (talk) 23:29, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Serial Killer Database

Good afternoon,

I would like to determine the level of interest that you all may have in helping to populate a serial killer database. I currently have about 800 entries but I am sure that there are cases across the US that I have overlooked.

Are any members of the task force actively maintaining a database of serial murderers?

Email me at eyak8218@hotmail.com if you are interested. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fedagntmulder (talk • contribs) 20:06, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

==I am not a member of the task force - how do you join - but I am a criminal defense lawyer in New Mexico familiar with our stable of serial murderers: William Wayne Gilbert had several murder convictions, he once escaped on July 4th from the state penitentiary, and his death sentence was commuted by Governor Toney Anaya to life without possibility of parole. Gregg Francis Braun was convicted of killing five persons in four states, received three life sentences until his luck ran out in Oklahoma where he was convicted and executed in 2000. David Bruce Morton had a hung jury from one murder of a 22 year old woman in Santa Fe, New Mexico, was convicted of murdering another 22 year old in Oklahoma and, when DNA matched him to others, returned to New Mexico and pled guilty to several other murders here. chris mcclendon suspected of serial murders. David Parker Raysuspected of 60 murders but died in prison. Robert Ray Fry convicted of four murders in three death penalty trials but suspected of 8 other Navajo murders in Four Corners. Steve Aarons (talk) 03:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia needs to create pages for the other SKs the guy from NM listed that do not have pages yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.238.240.252 (talk) 06:23, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Help with List of events named massacres

I've started a discussion on talkpage about a recent massive ip insertion of events not commonly named massacres to the list. Does anyone here have an opinion one way or the other? BusterD (talk) 21:28, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Serial rapist

I am looking for other editors to help in expanding this article with me. The topic is probably of interest to a lot of folks and I believe it has the potential of making it to the DYK section on the Main page. Thanks ahead of time,

Barbara (WVS) (talk) 16:18, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

@Barbara (WVS): - Hello, I may not have been able to contribute much but I have added a reference to the FBI's involvement as referred on the APA's website. Hope this helps. Thanks.
TopCipher 05:57, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Allan Grimson

Hi all. Don't know if this is overstepping the boundaries or the agreed limits of the project, but I have written an article about Allan Michael Grimson. He was only convicted of two murders with the judge at the summing up describing him as a "serial killer in name if not by number". He is suspected of many more murders but has no convictions for these. If this requirement falls short of the Projects aims, then let me know and I will amend the cats and infobox. Regards and thanks. The joy of all things (talk) 23:39, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement!

Hello, Please note that Gerald and Charlene Gallego, which is within this project's scope, has been selected as one of Today's articles for improvement. The article was scheduled to appear on Wikipedia's Community portal in the "Today's articles for improvement" section for one week, beginning Monday 24 April 2017. Everyone is encouraged to collaborate to improve the article. Thanks, and happy editing! Delivered by gwendy (talk) 02:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC) on behalf of the TAFI team

"Unapprehended" is not a word. Just use N/A

At a glance, it seems various editors have been filling in the template field "date apprehended" with "unapprehended". Searching WP for "unapprehended" resulted in too many hits. The value "N/A" (not applicable) is best. Unapprehended is not a word in this context (at best, it could be jargon). Nor is it a date. Please use "N/A" as the value when the field in question is not applicable. (However, I did also see a sort of "AT LARGE" header on some page.) I'll revert unapprehended to N/A on the page I was originally looking at. -- EsotericRogue Talk 17:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

There's nothing here that suggests the use of that word. That should probably be taken up on the talk pages of whatever articles you see, rather than posting here. These articles get a LOT of IP and new editor changes that never make it back here. Wildhartlivie (talk) 19:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't intend to have the same discussion in dozens of places when this appears to me to be the ideal centralized place to discuss the matter once, and then refer to as needed. The project page outlines using the template, and "filling in the template field" is related to using the template. -- EsotericRogue Talk 23:49, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Unapprehended is a word, used as far back as Plutarch. I understand preferring a different term, but it is a word. My advice would be "never captured" or something to that effect, but hell I'm just a visitor here.El cid, el campeador (talk) 04:23, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Add project banner to talk page?

Should this project's banner be added to 2017 Portland, Oregon stabbing? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:23, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Still Alive

Just wondering if this project is still alive? I've significantly modified List of serial killers in the United States. Still missing a few references for some and others that could probably be improved that people could assist with if they care to. Was wondering if we should include pictures? Thoughts, opinions, good-natured insults welcome. --dashiellx (talk) 14:26, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Walter Horsford

I am currently working on Walter Horsford. I am not sure if he counts as a serial killer as he was only convicted of one murder but suspected of three more by the same method? Please do feel free to edit the article.--Pontificalibus 09:20, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

I would defer to him not being a serial killer as the evidence used to convict him was not definitive and the other murders are only alleged. Just being convicted of only one crime would not disqualify someone from being classed a serial killer if the evidence for the multiple killings could be considered definitive. --dashiellx (talk) 12:35, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

We could use more input over at Talk:2019 Sebring, Florida, shooting about whether this article needs two commas in its title

Thanks, MW131tester (talk) 15:37, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Stop supporting terrorists

Why Wikipedia supports terrorism by glorifying it? Mass murderers are bigger threat to public safety than any terrorist organisation. The easiest way to get into the news and history books is to kill people, and Wikipedia supports this by publishing perpetrators' names and deeds with detail. Stop supporting terrorism! These people should be forgotten, not immortalized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.252.41.33 (talk) 09:50, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Blame the public; they're the ones who are fascinated by serial killers and therefore want to spend a lot of time reading about them, watching TV shows about them, etc. The media caters to that, creating so many reliable sources that Wikipedia can't help but have articles about them. MW131tester (talk) 18:56, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Unidentified until convicted?

Recently another editor brought to my attention that I had added Category:Unidentified serial killers to the Seminole Heights serial killer article as the suspect has not formally been convicted. In cases such as this and others such as Golden State Killer where there is a suspect but he/she has not been formally found guilty should these article belong in Category:Unidentified serial killers? Thanks Inter&anthro (talk) 00:09, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Questions

I recently attempted to create the page for Vernon J. Geberth-- who is recognized for having written the first article on serial killer profiling and created the textbooks that are used throughout the nation to teach homicide detectives, and it was taken down in every iteration, due to not meeting "notability" standards. This was shocking to me. I am now having trouble working with the pages for the forensic specialists Drs. Michael H. Stone and Dr. Gary Brucato, who wrote The New Evil, a popular book on serial murderers and other violent offenders. What happens when we, who study and know about specialists in the domain of violent crime research, recognize the contributions of someone, but they don't meet the Wikipedia notability guidelines? Is it better to create pages for their respective books, as opposed to them?SH8901 (talk) 08:28, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Possibly, though there are also notability criteria for books. See Wikipedia:Notability (books), for details. Dimadick (talk) 09:05, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Moors murders

Discussion on preferred version after edit war and lock of article. See Talk:Moors_murders#rfc_on_consensus_version_to_return_to Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:23, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Request for information on WP1.0 web tool

Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.

We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma (talk) 04:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Ian Brady- individual article

Hi there,

I am just sending you a quick message as I want to make a separate article on Ian Brady because I have seen that he doesn't have one published- he is just on the Moors Murders page with Myra.

I was just wondering why it was up for deletion and why there was so much controversy to do with him. I really do want to make an article on him but I just want to check with you first.

I hope to hear from you soon!

Thanks so much, --EDON12AB (talk) 14:38, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Kyoto Animation arson attack GA review in progress

Please consider helping out with fixing the items listed here. Thanks! ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:30, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

The article passed and was promoted! Thanks to Dekimasu for helping out and MX for pointing out areas of improvement. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:19, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Elizabeth Báthory article

Elizabeth Báthory (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

For those that are interested in editing articles about historical figures or just ensuring the accuracy of articles about them (or appropriate tone in articles), see Talk:Elizabeth Báthory#Poor sourcing in, and accuracy of, this article. A permalink for it is here. It could use more eyes. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 19:25, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Renaming of the task force

This is a very confusing name as it scopes out mass murderers and spree killings. Any suggestions? Heart ^(talk) 03:57, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Page used to be called simply the Serial Killer Task Force, HeartGlow30797. Can be slightly misleading I agree. True Crime Task Force? Ultimate Crime Task Force?--Kieronoldham (talk) 04:03, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Definitely agree that it needs to be changed. What it should be renamed to... that's a toughie. The task force mainly encompasses mass murders, spree killings, and serial killers. They all, by definition, kill multiple people. Maybe we could do "Massacre task force" or something along those lines? Also, not that it would be difficult or anything, but I'll gladly create the new logo for the task force similar to the previous one. Thanks, EDG 543 ^{(message me)} 17:24, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

IDK, mass murderers and spree killers have decidedly different psychological profiles. I will defer to the majority --dashiellx (talk) 19:36, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

EDG 543, I like the name "Massacre task force." Anyone have anything else? Heart ^(talk) 02:22, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Many dictionaries point to Massacre being someone who has killed a lot of people! Definitely has my stamp of approval! Heart ^(talk) 02:26, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

What about Serial, Spree & Mass Murderers Task Force? SSMMTK Or is that too long? --dashiellx (talk) 16:43, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:22, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Can you first define what it is you want this Wikiproject to be about? "Serial killers, mass murderers, and spree killers" is what it's concerned with, according to the main page. Yet that was somehow used to arbitrarily encompass terrorist activities, including, for example, the Omagh bombing. That (and other similar articles) might be within the scope of a 'Massacres' task force, but is certainly not appropriate for a 'Serial killer' one. Decide the scope first, and the name will follow. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:22, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Ands obviously a "massacre" - multiple people killed at once - is very different to a serial killer's usual methodology of one-at-a-time over a long period. (I can't believe I just wrote that). Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 08:32, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

The current scope of the project is "...to update and maintain all articles relating to serial killers, mass murderers, and spree killers." From my point of view that means multiple murders committed by a single person. None of the articles about the people who conspired to commit the Omagh bombing are considered to be about serial killers. I also think very few of the other mass murder or massacre articles included in the Serial Killer task force, especially if those are also classified as terrorism events, would also have biographies of the perpetrators included in the Serial Killer task force, because they would normally be considered terrorists. If some users are inclined to have a "Massacre" or "Mass Murder" task force then go and create it as a new task force, rather than trying to co-opt this one by trying to expand it beyond its existing scope. The important distinction is that the "killers" and "murders" that fall within the scope of this task force are about people, so the primary in-scope articles will be biographies. The primary in-scope articles for a "Massacre" or "Mass Murder" task force will be criminal or military events, not the perpetrators of those events. I think these scopes are mutually exclusive and you cannot include massacres and multiple murders without excluding serial killers. Leave this task force for serial killers. Have a separate task force for mass murder. Don't try to fit a square peg into a round hole. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 08:50, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Having additional task forces would complicate matters. Many notable criminals & crimes fit multiple classifications.

The biggest problem is this task force's misleading name. Naming it the Multiple Murder Task Force would be a significant improvement as it would much more closely describe its scope. Jim Michael (talk) 10:10, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Articles about terrorist acts

I recently had a discussion about the Omagh bombing not being an article about a serial killer. The basic concern that the other editors had is scope creep as the scope of this project has been misinterpreted as including acts of terrorism. I think that terrorist acts should be excluded from the project scope, too, as should any military actions or attacks. This project should be confined to criminal acts of multiple instances of murder committed by a single (named) individual. Usually the articles will be biographies. Individuals who are terrorists can be included if they meet the definition of serial killer, though their terrorist acts should not be. Suicide bombers are generally not considered serial killers because they commit murder in a single act. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 08:22, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Being terrorism doesn't exclude mass murders from the scope of this task force. The SKTF banner says it covers mass murders, which the bombing - whose death toll was 29 - clearly was.

The scope shouldn't be narrowed to that you suggest - murders by single named people - because many serial killers haven't been identified, including Jack the Ripper. Many serial killers don't operate alone: Fred & Rose West are an example of serial killers who operated together. Jim Michael (talk) 10:10, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

But the scope is not limited to serial killers:

• "The goal of this task force is to update and maintain all articles relating to serial killers, mass murderers, and spree killers."
• Its quite difficult to exclude mass murders from a WikiProject about mass murderers. Dimadick (talk) 10:21, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, its scope is far wider than the task force's name suggests. The main problem is its misleading name. Jim Michael (talk) 10:10, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

@Dimadick:,@Jim Michael: While I accept that not only serial killers but also mass murderers, and spree killers are included in the scope of the task force, as those are all articles about the people who commit the multiple murder crimes. However, the criminal events themselves do not necessarily fall within the scope of the task force. An article about a mass murder that contains a biography of the mass murderer who is only notable because of the mass murder they commit would qualify as an event to include. But an article about a mass murder committed by an armed force of many unnamed insurgents, where many people were killed, and hundreds of others were terrified and fled the scene isn't really an article about a single mass murderer, in my mind. There is another WikiProject for Terrorism, so those sorts of articles do still have a WikiProject they can be assigned to. I don't see why the articles about acts of Mass Murder need to be part of the same WikiProject as their perpetrators. The scope of the Serial Killer task force is unclear on where the boundary is. Even the Crime WikiProject distinguishes between Criminal Biographies and Crime, and treats them separately. So I am not convinced both need to be in the same WikiProject. I think the scope of this task force has not been defined clearly enough to properly understand where the boundaries are and say what is included and what is not. This result in confusion and disagreement among editors, because some think articles are in scope while others think they are out of scope. Part of the issue is to do with the name, which is quite confining, and, if taken literally, would exclude mass murderers that only committed a single act that killed many people - like flying a large airliner full of passengers into a skyscraper full of people. I would be happy if the Serial Killer task force was more tightly specified with fewer article meeting the criteria, as the confusion would be less. If that resulted in a separate "Mass Murder" task force to pick up the articles that were excluded, so be it. I don't really think renaming this task force does the job effectively. A separate "Mass Murder" task force is needed. One that excludes Serial Killers. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 10:53, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

The banner is often removed from talk pages of articles that are within the task force's scope by people who haven't read the banner, who wrongly assume it only covers serial killers. The banner says it includes mass murders, which is why such articles are included. This project has too few editors, so creating a new task force would mean them both being inadequately operated. Jim Michael (talk) 11:10, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

The banner is often correctly removed from talk pages of articles that are clearly outside the scope of the "Serial Killer" "task force" (itself a problematic name!) The point of a so-called "task force" is surely to address one area, properly, not many areas, poorly. Serial killers (e.g. the fictional Hannibal Lecter) are entirely different to spree killers (e.g. the Columbine Massacre), which are themselves entirely different to mass murders (e.g. the Omagh bombing or 911). You appear to be saying that events like Bloody Sunday (1972) are within the scope of this "task force", and I really don't think that's an avenue you want to go down, because your "serial killer task force" banner would have to be added to literally hundreds of articles about The Troubles (where Arbitration remedies apply!) - and that's just one armed conflict. There is no logic to the current (claimed) scope; only approximately 1/5th of "qualifying" articles have been added to the category the "task" force claims to look after. Why single out a crime where two people are shot and both are killed as within the task force's ambit, but if one of them survives, then it's out-of-scope? Maybe concentrate on one narrow area before trying to include every criminal act where two or more people died? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:08, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Like I said, the task force's name is misleading, because as its banner clearly states, it isn't limited to serial killers. There are many more articles it applies to than are within it, because many people wrongly (but understandably) assume its scope is limited to serial killers - having not read the banner. I don't think the scope extends to fiction, so Hannibal Lecter shouldn't be included. The Columbine High School massacre & the Omagh bombing were both mass murders, so they clearly fit the scope as stated in the banner. Arbitration has nothing to do with project banners & scope. There are definitions of serial killer, spree killer & mass murder, so we can go by those. Jim Michael (talk) 17:34, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

It's absent from a load of articles because it was never added to them. Arbitration will come into it when you try adding it to Troubles-related articles such as Omagh bombing but omit it from Bloody Sunday (1972), where more than 29 people were killed or injured when British soldiers went on a killing spree. And again, that's only one recent conflict. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 18:25, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

In most cases, it's because it was never added to them, due to a) there being too few editors working on this task force & b) too few editors having read the banner which says it covers more than serial killers. In some cases, it's because it was removed despite the articles being with the stated scope. The SKTF is on the talk pages of both the Troubles massacres you mention, so I don't know why you talk about arbitration-related problems when adding it to Omagh & omitting it from Bloody Sunday. Jim Michael (talk) 18:47, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, it's on Omagh bombing because you just added it back there, despite consensus for removal. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 21:17, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

It fits the criteria that's stated on the project banner - we need consensus on here in order to alter its scope. It shouldn't be removed from talk pages of articles whose scope it's within. It's been removed & reinstated from many talk pages of articles about mass murders & spree killings, mostly by people who - because they haven't read the banner - assume its scope to be limited to serial killers.

The small number of editors who've taken part in discussions on this matter this month want different modifications to the task force's name &/or scope, so there's no consensus so far to change anything. I think the most important thing is to change its misleading name. Jim Michael (talk) 18:27, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Your project has a sum total of 18 editors who have more than 1,000 edits and who have edited in the past year. Many members haven't edited in the past five years. Some in over ten years. I think the most important thing might be not setting yourself up for failure. With those numbers, maybe try to do one thing well rather than... well, apparently just putting your banner onto talk pages is what the "task force" does. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 23:36, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

The banner's presence on talk pages of articles within its scope brings interested editors to those articles. I agree that there should be more active editors of the SKTF, but I don't know how we can gain them. Jim Michael (talk) 09:07, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Request for Comment relating to Dnepropetrovsk maniacs

A Request for Comment has been made at Talk:Dnepropetrovsk maniacs § Details of animal cruelty which may interest members of this WikiProject. ––FormalDude talk 09:27, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Request for sources

I am looking for sources about Ivan Maleshoff, a supposed soviet serial killer convicted of murdering 20 women. However, the problem is that all known sources are from western news outlets, & there are no known reports of the individual from Russia or Ukraine. Also, all sources are from a period of eight days, which violates WP:SUSTAINED. I have not found any reliable sources from the web or from books, so Newspaper archives are the best bet for finding more information about this individual. It should also be noted that sources spell his surname in different ways, so it's better to search by keywords. Silent-Rains (talk) 22:03, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Requesting review

Requesting review / feedback of an article draft I've been writing up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Armando_Normand Normand was a manager of the Peruvian Amazon Company which perpetrated the Putumayo genocide. He's referred as one of the worst criminals that worked for the company by multiple contemporary sources. Arawoke (talk) 20:18, 22 July 2023 (UTC)