Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Boston/Archive 5

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Scope

There was a discussion about the scope here: User_talk:Sswonk#Boston - It is continuing here. Sswonk said: "Your feelings revolve around having the project itself become about "Greater Boston", but I can tell you up front that the definitions and feelings about the geographical space of that concept range widely."

• They may vary between people, but there is a rock-solid definition we can use, and that definition is provided by the U.S. Government. The US government has a set list of cities that make up the Boston MSA. That makes things easy and simple. For instance the Houston project uses the Houston MSA boundaries (a group of counties) as its scope. Many projects use the Gov't MSA definitions, and it is easy to do so.

"I don't see a reason to change based on "attract(ing) new contributors"

• Because you have to think about the project in the long term. A project may have contributors now, but people may lose interest in the particular project. People may leave Wikipedia altogether or have a severe reduction in time that one can have to contribute (new job, kids, etc). People may be banned from Wikipedia. People may die. One always has to think about how to attract new contributors to a project and to continually tell the Wikipedia population that the project exists. The bigger the scope, the more likely it is for a project to attract people.

"There is already a link to the Mass portal on the Boston page. My position would be to promote the "Massachusetts" project more aggressively on the Boston project page, rather than expand the scope of Boston."

• Well, the Massachusetts project is separate from the Boston project. All of the Boston-tagged articles that have to do with Massachusetts would still have their MA tags. See, the Boston MSA includes territory in two states, so if the Boston project's scope was Greater Boston, then it would not actually be a child project of any state. Promotion of the Boston project would not be at the expense of any state project.

"I can see more editors or potential editors becoming offended by suggestion, for example, that "Nashua, New Hampshire is under the scope of WP:Boston" than I can see editors or potential ones being pleased by it."

• In that case I would point them to the US government list of cities in the Boston MSA and say "Well, the US government here says that this city is within the metropolitan area." In any event I haven't seen any cases where a contributor from a suburban area felt offended by being included in a project relating to a larger city.

"It is a minor point, ultimately, see [3], [4] and [5] which show that, as an example, the talk page of Canton, Massachusetts has been viewed 5 times in the past 10 weeks."

• Firstly my strategy does not just consist of talk page tags. It also consists of portal tags. Portal tags help lead people to WikiProjects too. And when talking about Canton, Massachusetts, the city article is not the only one included. The scope would also include the school district, companies with headquarters in Canton, people with connections to Canton, etc. And multiply that by the number of suburban municipalities within the Boston MSA. Also add the counties that include cities under the Boston MSA.
• As a note, in most places in the US the government defined metropolitan areas by counties. In New England the government has a list of individual cities that are within the area, as opposed to counties.

WhisperToMe (talk) 22:48, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Boston MSA is colored yellow

WhisperToMe has shifted this discussion to this page, per my request. My position was first stated on my talk page and passages found there are quoted above. I do not feel that the scope of this project should change from the "City of Boston" to "Greater Boston". I am entirely comfortable with having the focus of this project remain Boston itself and having the various other cities within the MSA, a map of which is shown at left as the areas highlighted in yellow, remain covered by the state projects. The census bureau creates MSAs using complex criteria involving employment and commerce data which define widespread urban areas in the United States. The question is whether that area is what the scope of this project should become. I hold that the city project contains a very significant number of topics by itself, which would be diluted by inclusion of areas that, while considered for statistical purposes to be part of an interconnected mega-urban zone, also contain a large number of topics that would be better served by being covered either by future regional projects of Massachusetts and New Hampshire, or existing ones such as are listed here.
The MSA contains a population of 4,522,858 and stretches from northern Strafford County, New Hampshire to the South Coast of Massachusetts. This represents an area near in size to the entire state of Connecticut, and a population that is 68.5% of the entire state of Massachusetts. More parochially, I submit that the areas of NH linked to Boston by the MSA map are in fact more strongly tied to the history and culture of Portsmouth and Portland. The Merrimack Valley is distinct from Boston itself, as are Plymouth and New Bedford. Each of these areas contain an extraordinary historical significance that is entirely independent of Boston.
Boston, the city, is a topic that is and should remain the scope of this project. By itself, it was the site of many of the most significant events in American history, the home of many of the most important persons involved in forming that history, and the cradle of liberty and free education in the United States. Yes in the second decade of the twenty first century the residents of the MSA are watching Boston television stations, listening to Boston radio and cheering for Boston sports teams. But the city itself has a culture and influence that was created, and exists, within its bounds. That is what this project is about. Creation of a separate "Greater Boston" project would perhaps allow a focus on the cultural and economic influences of what is described within the MSA. However, I feel that the WP:MASS and WP:NH projects are better suited as they stand now to cover the topics of interest within the MSA than is a census-defined region that is blind to the individual histories of the states, regions, cities and towns it encompasses.
In order to gain a wider number of views on this discussion of the scope of WP:Boston, I am posting a link to it at the WP:MASS and WP:NH pages. Sswonk (talk) 03:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

It is true that many of these communities have not historically had ties to Boston, as the economies and infrastructures of, say, the colonial US and other time periods are different than those of today. Having said that, they nowadays have ties to Boston. I would like to bring up a correlating example in the Houston area.

The city of Galveston historically has been a major port city and trading center for Texas. It was the economic powerhouse in the southeast Texas area until the hurricane in 1900 happened. After the hurricane happened a lot of businesses moved north to Houston, and Houston eclipsed Galveston's significance. The Roman Catholic Diocese of Galveston later renamed itself to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Galveston-Houston (now Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston) to reflect how Houston's influence became imposed upon the area.

Galveston, like Merrimack Valley, Plymouth and New Bedford, has had a distinct history and culture that is separate from that of its larger neighbor. The ties to Houston are economic and relatively modern. Yet the Houston Wikiproject chose to cover Galveston because of its very recent, current ties to Houston. It is easy for people from Houston to travel to Galveston, and vice versa.

In regards to "I hold that the city project contains a very significant number of topics by itself, which would be diluted by inclusion of areas that..." and "Boston, the city, is a topic that is an should remain the scope of this project. By itself, it was the site of many of the most significant events in American history, the home of many of the most important persons involved in forming that history, and the cradle of liberty and free education in the United States."

While the Houston wikiproject does include many surrounding communities, the focus on the project is overwhelmingly on Houston. The WikiProject image is the Houston flag, and the showpiece is the City of Houston. I understand that Houston is a southern city which has annexed many formerly rural acres of land and which has a large land area. At the same time Boston is the centerpiece of the area, and so a project about the Boston MSA would still be mostly about Boston.

The Houston project has assisted with the development of articles relating to suburbs within the MSA, but the focus is still mostly on Houston. The name of the WikiProject is "Houston" to show that the city is the main focus, and that the other areas have cultural and economic ties to Houston.

"a focus on the cultural and economic influences of what is described within the MSA." - Yes, I think this is part of what WikiProject Boston should cover. When I look at the Handbook of Texas entries about some suburbs and surrounding communities, they often mention times when Houston's influence appeared. The entry for Galena Park, Texas states "Since the 1940s the town has been considered a part of greater Houston." The article for Katy, Texas states "During World War II the size of the reserves and the proximity of Houston-area refineries combined to make Katy the most important gas-condensate field in the country." The very recent urbanization and proximity to large cities are documented in reliable sources. The entry for Conroe, Texas states "With the construction of Interstate Highway 45, increasing numbers of Houstonians took up residence on the margins of Conroe." - Houston does not exist in a vacuum. It has a political, cultural, and economic influence on its surrounding communities. Boston is a very unique city, but it also has an influence on surrounding cities; the influence may date from the post-World War II period or even after that, but the influence exists today.

"I submit that the areas of NH linked to Boston by the MSA map are in fact more strongly tied to the history and culture of Portsmouth and Portland" - If reliable sources discuss the influence of Portsmouth and Portland on those communities in New Hampshire, it would be interesting to discuss this in the articles themselves. The US Government does include them in the MSA, demonstrating that those communities in New Hampshire have economic and commuting ties to Boston, though.

As a note, the Houston MSA, consisting of ten Texas counties, has 8,929 square miles of land and 5,728,143 people as of 2008. That essentially is the scope of WP:Houston, and the City of Houston (579.4 square miles of land, 2,242,193 residents in 2008) is still the key focus of the project.

Also I found http://z3950.muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/american_jewish_history/v089/89.1shapiro.pdf - There's a journal article called "Urban Exodus: Why the Jews Left Boston and the Catholics Stayed (review) American Jewish History - Volume 89, Number 1, March 2001, pp. 149-151" - It may have some interesting material relating to Boston and to several of the surrounding communities (portions of the book are available here http://books.google.com/books?id=NPSjoh5gsnYC&dq=%22Why+the+Jews+Left+Boston+and+the+Catholics+Stayed%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=NHhPS-XLDoOuNo35yY4J&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false )

WhisperToMe (talk) 05:42, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

With no further input, at this point I would like to increase the scope of this project. If you want I can contact the WikiProject council for its opinion. Based on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Council#WikiProject_renaming I would imagine that it would recommend increasing this project's scope. WhisperToMe (talk) 11:44, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I did not think it was my place to impose, since i am not officially a member of WP Boston, but i am basically against changing the scope of the project. First of all there are more than enough WPs covering New England. Each state has at least one, the cape and islands have one, and there is the Boston WP. Secondly, Obviously this project is not very active. My question is if we pile more and more articles into it will that really help the cause, or just make a giant backlog that no one is going to ever get to. Thirdly, it may become confusing for someone if they read that a certain something is in Manchester or Worcester and then it says it is part of wikiproject Boston. The amount of expansion in the project that is being proposed in pretty ridiculous if you ask me. I am not completely against expanding the scope, but expanding it to include areas in New Hampshire and out past Worcester makes no sense. There are a ton of cities between boston and the external points of the proposed area that i would rather see a wikiproject spring up for before i would include them in this one. Now, i am not completly against expanding the scope, for instance I would be fine with expanding it to include Cambridge because the true urban center of the region lies between these two cities, since they are adjacent. If the scope is changed at all from just boston itself, the name will need to be changed, but if it is expanded to the full extent being proposed, we have just basically created a second Wikiproject Massachusetts. If my input can not be considered because i am not a member, its cool. I just wanted to get my 2 cents in as an editor of many Boston related pages before anything drastic was done.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

"First of all there are more than enough WPs covering New England." - The proposal increases the scope of one WikiProject - it does not increase the number of existing WikiProjects.

In regards to the increase of articles - increasing the scope does not just add more articles to the project. Increasing the scope adds points where the project's presence can be advertised, through portal tags and through the WikiProject tags. Many people who live in adjacent cities can also help with the City of Boston, and vice versa. People interested in, say, Reebok, which is HQed in the Boston area, or Harvard University, in the Boston area, would be introduced to the project via the tags.

"If the scope is changed at all from just boston itself, the name will need to be changed" - But the name does not need to be changed. Even though the Chicago and Philadelphia projects cover suburbs too, the names of the projects are plainly "Chicago" and "Philadelphia" as it is understood that the suburbs are a part of the fabric of the city economy and culture, even if the suburbs are outside of the city limits.

"we have just basically created a second Wikiproject Massachusetts." - Well, that would not be the case because the metropolitan area extends into New Hampshire, and that much of central and western Massachusetts is way outside of the Boston area. Think of the scenario as a venn diagram. Some things are in Boston and Massachusetts, some things are in Boston and New Hampshire, some things are in MA only, and some things are in NH only.

WhisperToMe (talk) 11:28, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Population of Massachusetts

I do not mean to offend, but you are obviously not from New England. The lay out of the region is much different from that of the cities you are comparing this too. As you can see in the population map i added, the part of Massachusetts you are adding to the scope is basically 90% of all the inhabitants therefor it is just repeating the majority of the places and people and things that WIkiproject Massachusetts already has under its umbrella. On top of this you are adding the entire state of Rhode Island which already has its own wikiproject, again just repeating an area already covered by a precise project. New England, especially southern New England, is comprised of a ton of urban areas and their metro areas. I mean you are including the capitol of two separate states, the largest cities of three separate states, (excluding Conneticut) you have 6 out of the 7 largest cities in all of New England, and you have included other large towns (such as Framingham or Somervlle) that would be included in this if the census counted them the same as cities (see: Census Treatment of New England Towns. On top of all this you also have all of these cities metro areas and suburbs under the Boston Project. I lived in Northbridge, Massacusetts for a long time and it is in both the Providence, Rhode Island and Worcester, Massachusetts suburbs. I would include that town in the Rhode Island Wikiproject before i would put it in the Boston Wikiproject if we are going by your standards. I just think this is a ridiculously large scope. Like i said before i am fine with expanding the scope just not this wide. Maybe like inside Massachusetts Route 128, which is what most in Massachusetts and New England as a whole see as the border of the Boston Metro Area.--Found5dollar (talk) 14:53, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

1. I am deliberately using the U.S. Government New England city and town area definition, which includes specific towns and cities in only Massachusetts and New Hampshire- It corresponds to Greater_Boston#New_England_City_and_Town_Area - It includes only places specifically tied to Boston

2. None of Rhode Island is within that region.

WhisperToMe (talk) 16:07, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Ahh... i'm sorry, i missunderstood that first map you put up. I am still uncomfortable with the size being suggested though. I would be comfortable with boston and its immediatly surrounding cities and towns, perhaps the extent of the T or insdide 128 like i have suggested before, but what you are suggesting is just to diseperate of an are culturally, politicaly, and geographicly. --Found5dollar (talk) 18:58, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

What we could do is decide to definately include the Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA NECTA Division (97 towns) which should be similar to the definition you proposed. Then the project can have a debate over whether to include the other NECTA divisions. WhisperToMe (talk) 09:21, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

If there are no further objections, within a few days I'll add articles related to Cambridge and Quincy to the project and I'll also spread around tags. I'm still in favor of including other NECTA areas like Framingham, etc. in the project, but Cambridge and Quincy will certainly be included. WhisperToMe (talk) 11:45, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

With the expansion into the inner suburbs, I found that Tufts University is now a part of the WPBoston scope. I find the development exciting, and hopefully the project can recruit people from Harvard and Tufts to assist in the project. WhisperToMe (talk) 13:40, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

The reason that I initially created this group was that I felt that the Boston Neighborhoods needed more focus and I wanted to create an easy way for us to do this. On the whole I agree that areas such as Cambridge, Newton and Quincy comprise the Greater Boston Area but I would like to see the focus of this Project to be on the Culture, Community and persons that have made Boston such a unique place. With that said I am just one voice in the project so as always the community should decide. Just a little input from they guy who started the Project. I also want to take as second and thank everyone for taking this project much further than I expected - Great work everyone. Markco1 (talk) 01:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

WP 1.0 bot announcement

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Category for deletion

The following subcategory of the Category:People from Boston, Massachusetts has been proposed for deletion: Category:People from 20th-century Boston, Massachusetts. A link to the discussion is provided at the top of the subcategory page. --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:03, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Harvard RFC

There is currently an RFC about use of the word "Prestigious" in the lead of Harvard University. Comments are welcome here. ~DC _{Let's Vent} 20:49, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

"Warrenty House"?

This building, depicted in Commons:File:Warrenty House, Charlestown, Mass, from Robert N. Dennis collection of stereoscopic views.jpg and Commons:File:Warrenty House, Charlestown, Mass, from Robert N. Dennis collection of stereoscopic views.png is identified as "Warrenty House" in Charlestown, Mass. That could be a misspelling. I did some basic web searching & couldn't find out anything about it: when built, what it was used for, whether it survives and if not when it was destroyed, etc. If anyone knows something, could you add to the respective Commons pages (additional description or categories would both be welcome). Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 21:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

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West Roxbury - remove or move

All please comment on West Roxbury there is an attempt to remove this article as they feel neighborhoods of Boston should not exist. This would mean all neighborhoods of Boston could be removed. We need a lot of people on this to save the page. Markco1 (talk) 23:33, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

• It's actually a move request. They just want it to be under the simple title of "West Roxbury." ~DC ^{We Can Work It Out} 00:02, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Ahh my mistake - I thought that they wanted to remove - merge it. Markco1 (talk) 04:22, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

A consideration for cross project consolidation of talk page templates

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