Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Alternative education/Archive 2

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Possible Homeschooling subproject?

There is now a proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Homeschooling for a group to deal specifically with Homeschooling which has gotten five members, which is generally thought enough for a task force. Would this project be willing to take on such a subproject? John Carter (talk) 18:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

UPDATE: Our members of WikiProject Homeschooling have decided against making it a task force of this project, as this project is practically inactive, and too small to handle one, especially if the "task force" grows to have more members of the original project. The Homeschooling project is now active, and members of this project are welcome to join. Thanks. DiligentTerrier • talk |sign here 20:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Inactive?

Nine days ago, on March 2, I added an inactive tag to this WikiProject page and talk page. Since no one has removed it since then, or even contested it, I believe that makes this project officially inactive. As the founder of WikiProject Homeschooling, I am now suggesting that this project be merged into that one. Although it may sound as though "Alternative Education" is a much broader name, I have looked at your to-do list here, and cannot find one article in there that could not be covered by WikiProject Homeschooling, because anything that is not conventional schooling is considered homeschooling. And if you are thinking that the Homeschooling project should actually be merged into this one, please remember that WikiProject Homeschooling is also a much more active WikiProject, where we have collaboration of the month nominations and a newsletter which is delivered to all our members. That being said, I would like to know if members here could kindly join our project. If no one responds here in a few days I will figure this is completely inactive and start merging it myself. Thoughts on a possible merger? DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 15:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the category structures on wikipedia, it tells me that wikiproject homeschooling is a sub of wikiproject alternative education, in that homeschooling is a form of alternative eduction, so I would disagree to a mmerger in that sense. Id like to propose two things here;

#1: Homeschooling and alternative education merge and become known as "WikiProject Alternative Education", with all members of homeschooling becoming members of alternative education, with the possibility of a homeschooling taskforce.

#2: Wikiproject alternative education gets merged into Wikiproject Education, with no change to wikiproject homeschooling. There would of course be the option of a alternative education task force.

My personal preference is for option 2. The members of homeschooling dont seem keen to lose the name of homeschooling, although they might be happy to "take over" wikiproject alternative education? considering its inactive. Thoughts? Twenty Years 05:27, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, let me just clarify what I meant by all this, and also respond to the personal attack/vandalism that was posted here earlier (I just archived it below for reference). I really don't care what happens with this project, as long as WikiProject Homeschooling stays how it is. The reality is that this project cannot stand on its own, obviously, and something should happen to it. Merging it into WP Education might be a good idea. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 12:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with option 2. WP:Homeschooling needs to keep it's independence as a wikiproject. Make WP:alternative education a task force of WP:Education. Members of WP:AE can then decide which wikiproject to join, per DT. Burner0718 ^JibbaJabba! 19:14, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

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Removed personal attack: Merging this into Homeschooling is beyond stupid. Homeschooling is clearly a subset of Alternative Education. You call yourself the founder of WikiHomschooling, but I look over there and don't see a whole lot going on. You remind me of a coroporation that grows, not by producing anything new, but by buying other companies and forming a huge conglomeration. Go tend to your own garden, Dutiful Dog. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.154.254.17 (talk) 05:35, 12 March 2008 (UTC) Note: the edit summary for the comment also said: "if your balls was in your eye sockets, your skull would have burst open, there so big".

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Merging it into WP Education sounds sensible, as there really is not a lot going on with the Alternative Education project at the moment. Hgilbert (talk) 13:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

That makes the most sense to me as well. Orderinchaos 13:38, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with merging this project with WP_Education (unless there is a community here to work on reviving it) - "alternative education" is a much broader area than would be covered by "homeschooling". However, of course, the Homeschooling project can proceed to look into/after any of the articles that currently fit within this project. (I'm instead active on Wikiversity - but I'd dearly love to work on an interproject collaboration if anyone is interested...) Cormaggio ^{is learning} 16:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

So, what do we do with the members of this project? Should they automatically become members of WP Education? I think we should give them the option of joining WP Education and/or WP Homeschooling. My guess is that a lot of members of this project don't even know that all this is going on ... maybe I can include this whole story in WP Homeschooling's next newsletter, and send it out to members of this project also? Thoughts? DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 17:32, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

With genuine respect, may I say that I really don't understand why DiligentTerrier doesn't just use his time to tend to his own creation. This is not a personal attack. This is a suggestion that, for the good both of Wikipedia in general and Wikyproject:Homeschoolers that Dilligent Terrier should perhaps strengthen his own nascent project before trying to expand his areas of control. Please read Matthew 7:3 (but not 7:5, I am not engaging in personal attacks anymore). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.154.254.17 (talk) 02:21, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The members of Wp:Alternative education can do as they wish, if it is decided to merge with WP:EDU (which seems the likely outcome here) then they can decided if they want to become members of that project themselves, its not for us to decide. Twenty Years 04:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Whether it is his intention or not, I agree that DiligentTerrier does seem to be giving the impression that he is anxious to "have his own group" and consolidate power. Other than the obligatory "flood of new members" that join any new group, whether Facebook, Wiki or otherwise - WP:Homeschooling hasn't actually accomplished anything yet in the sense of improving the WMF projects. That's not an insult, it's just a simple fact. (In fact, when I suggested a collaborative effort, I was largely dismissed with "Yeah, yeah, that's cool...join our memberlist plz", which was disheartening) Knowing now that WP:Alternative Education already existed, I agree that I would have preferred to have seen DiligentTerrier revitalise and bring new life to this group, rather than create his own with identical aims ("I have looked at your to-do list here, and cannot find one article in there that could not be covered by WikiProject Homeschooling" means the reverse is likely true, there was no reason to create WP:HS when WP:AE already covered the territory).

I agree that there is no need for two projects covering the same matter, but I am loathe to help DiligentTerrier "gain power", when such people tend to be the least effective leaders. Since Alternative Education is a more broad term (allowing Montessori and Waldorf schools, for example), I would prefer to see that title kept - the memberlists merged, the newsletter and templates brought over here (it's a good idea), etc. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 17:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge WP:Alternative Ed with WP:Ed and leave WP:Homeschooling alone. Members don't gravitate according to project mergers - they signed up for a project they were interested in, and when they're not interested any longer they become inactive or drop out. They do not get merger along with the project.

Regarding DiligentTerrier and his actions, this is not a trial or anything to that effect. It has been made that by a few previous editors, and attention should not be there. We should stick to the issue at hand, which is the merger question, and stop allowing attention to be diverted to trivial personal attacks. • Freechild'sup? 17:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anybody has made any personal attacks, but it would be wrong to view changes to WMF's structures without taking into account their proper context, whether somebody has just created a mirror of an existing project and called for the existing project to be merged into "theirs". As the founder of Wikiproject:Terrorism I have a bit of experience in the field, since a single user six months later created Wikipedia:WikiProject Terrorism and counter-terrorism and began spamming his templates across articles in an attempt to "compete" for who could be the 'creator of the most successful wikiproject' or something. Ultimately, it was a waste of time and effort that could've been better spent improving the current wikiproject - just as in this case. There's no reason DiligentTerrier or others couldn't have created a newsletter or template for this project, rather than starting their own. Again, I agree that only one project is needed, but I feel that "Alternative Education" is the better title since it encompasses Montessori, Waldorf, Unschooling and similar contexts. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 17:37, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Sherurcij, Are you hinting around that I am only trying to build a large and successful WikiProject? Actually, what I am trying to do is consolidate similar projects so that they don't compete...and if that means merging this project into WP Education, then I think that would be a good move. So, once again, I am going to clarify that my motive for proposing this merger was not to gain power on my own group or one of the other silly things that Sherurcij has suggested; it was only to help figure out what should be done with this inactive group that is not getting anything done. With that being said, I'd also have to say I am very displeased and maybe even somewhat offended upon hearing some of the said accusations that Sherurcij has made. Also, when you said that we haven't made any collaborative efforts, you are very wrong, and you obviously haven't noticed at the project page where you can see that we are actually voting on the collaboration of the month. Did you catch that - voting? Yes, I did not decide for the group. And if I was the president or king or whatever it is that you say I am, then I would have. By the way, when you suggested that collaborative effort, I did not just brush you off, like you said I did. Instead, I urged my members in the newsletter to help you out, even though you weren't even a member of our project and the "collaborative effort" you were talking about wasn't even on Wikipedia. And you also talk about how there were never any personal attacks made. Well, obviously you haven't read the comment made by the IP address that said directed at me "if your balls was in your eye sockets, your skull would have burst open, there so big". I suspect that is someone else in this conversation, but I am not going to go there right now. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 18:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

As a member of wikiproject homeschooling, I would rather us become a subproject and help you guys breathe new life into this wikiproject instead of merging. From a logical standpoint, wikiproject alternate education would be an umbrella group that would cover not only homeschooling but also private schooling, trade schooling, appreticeship, etc. Kimu 19:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I would have to say that I would favor WikiProject Homeschooling being a subproject (not taskforce) of this project if this project were more active. But since the Alternative Education project is inactive, I think it should be either merged or become a task force of WikiProject Education. Whatever the outcome, this project (Alternative Education) cannot stand on its own, and the homeschooling project should stay how it is. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 19:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Diligent Terrier. WP:Homeschooling needs to keep it's independence as a wikiproject. Make WP:alternative education a task force of WP:Education. Members of WP:AE can then decide which wikiproject to join, per DT. I see no reason why this can't work, if anyone disagrees, please enlighten me. Burner0718 ^JibbaJabba! 19:32, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

But WP:Homeschooling should be a subproject of AE, since it is a means of AE. I don't think there is a need for any merger, just an increase in activity. Kimu 19:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

As said above, I would normally favor that if it were more active. However, since this project is inactive, it should be either merged or become a subproject of WP Education. WP Homeschooling should stand alone how it is. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 19:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

But since we should be a subproject already, then if we merge this WikiProject into WP:EDU, then we need to become a subproject of that. Kimu 19:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 19:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, so do we all agree on that? Kimu 19:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think we've always been a subproject of WP Education. WP Homeschooling should be left as a WikiProject, not a taskforce, is what I'm saying. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 19:57, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, that would mean merging WP Alternative Education into WP Education, and making WP Homeschooling, a subproject not taskforce of WP Education. I can write a proposal if everyone here so far is in agreement with that. Thoughts? DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 19:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, Sherurcij, you really need to calm down here. These kind of comments are getting way out of hand for a basic WikiProject merger proposal debate. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 21:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

...I think you're trying to needlessly create "drama" and pretend there is some conflict that doesn't really exist. Maybe it's because you think you'll garner more support as a "victim", maybe you just really have a victim mentality, I don't know. Either way, neither my comments on this page, nor the polite comment I left on your talk page in any way broach "personal attacks", they were polite advice advising you how to help your project succeed. Calm down, take a deep breath, and try re-reading what I've written. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 16:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I never said you made a personal attack. The IP address that came here did. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 17:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Lets stop this non-sense right now. There was no personal attack. Just everyone get back to the topic at hand. Twenty Years 17:18, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposal by Diligent Terrier (withdrawn)

Since this project is so inactive, I doubt a task force will even be successful. Instead, let's just go with a simple merger, as I also think the WP Education participants would prefer that. Here is my proposal:

1. A notice will be placed at the WikiProject Alternative Education page saying it is no longer active, and it will have links to WP Education, WP Homeschooling, and WP Schools.
2. A similar notice will be placed at the talk page of WikiProject Alternative Education directing discussion to the said WikiProjects.
3. This whole page will be archived, and the other talk page archives of WikiProject Alternative Education will be left alone. There will be links to them at the bottom of this page.
4. Following the deactivation of this WikiProject, members of this project will receive an issue of WP Education's newsletter, WP's Homeschooling's newsletter, and WP School's newsletter. They will be notified that this group has been deactived, and the newsletters will contain information on getting involved with collaboration in the given WikiProject.
5. WikiProject Homeschooling will remain untouched as a sub-project of WikiProject Education.

• Support DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 17:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Seems overly bureaucratic. I've seen far less active WikiProjects which are in fact extant - I posted a proposal to one and a month later nobody had even noticed it. This one's at a similar level of activity to many small projects. It is already marked inactive - that and a note on the front page saying to look at WikiProject Education should be sufficient. Bombarding people with newsletters they haven't asked for may be regarded as spam. Orderinchaos 17:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose, I am still upset to see that my concerns haven't been addressed about Waldorf families and Montessori families belonging in the same "Wikiproject" as Homeschoolers, as well as Unschoolers and Freeschoolers. "We" would be well-served to get members of those communities helping us bring the "alternative" views of Education and their histories, to WP. ANd they will fit into "our" circle much more than in WP:Education obviously. I still maintain that "Alternative Education" is the route to choose for our Project name, and haven't seen any reasons not to use that name instead for the project. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 17:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah Montessori was at the back of my mind too. Seems to me that it is inactive now but will probably ebb and flow at different times, so no point in killing it. Orderinchaos 18:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose Seems overly buereaucratic to me. Also per concerns above. Project is now considered active. Twenty Years 18:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposal by Twenty Years (withdrawn)

My proposal is to be very simple:

• WikiProject Alternative Education will become a task force of WikiProject Education.
• WikiProject Homeschooling will be left alone.

Thoughts? Twenty Years 17:58, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

• Support Twenty Years 18:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
• Concern, this still leaves Waldorf families, Montessori families, Unschoolers and Freeschoolers in a separate group from homeschoolers, which I don't think is ideal. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 18:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
  • It would be within the scope of the Alternative Education task force. So it would be all together. Twenty Years 18:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Subgroups within groups within task forces isn't really "Together", it would be best if a message posted to "Freeschooling" members of WP was posted to the same page as one posted to "Homeschoolers", etc. That would mean a single Wikiproject which encompasses all of those groups...a Wikipedia:WikiProject Alternative education if you will ;) I'd rather see this group revitalised, with the newsletters, enthusiasm and collaborations of DT's new efforts, but keeping it within the ideal of Alternative Education, not specific to a single strict definition of "Homeschooling" Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 18:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
• (reduce indent) Good Call. Proposal Withdrawn. Lets collaborate and get the project moving forward again. Twenty Years 18:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposal by Diligent Terrier (2)

I have removed WP Schools from the list, as requested by Twenty Years. The section on the newsletters has been removed as requested by Orderinchaos. I have also addressed the concern by Sherurcij has been addressed about Montessori families, etc. Hopefully we can come to some sort of compromise like this. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 20:47, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Following the deactivation of this project, an "Alternative Education" task force will be created under WikiProject Education as long as: a) There is a consensus among WikiProject Education members that says they are OK with a task force being created under their project and b) ten users are willing to become participants. The task force will cover topics which fall in between the WikiProjects Homeschooling and Education. If this proposal passes, I feel that Sherurcij would make a great coordinator and person to recruit active members of this project to see if they are interested.
2. A notice will be placed at the WikiProject Alternative Education page and talk page saying that the project is no longer active. It will direct participants to WP Education and WP Homeschooling or the task force if it is created.
3. Members of WikiProject Alternative Education will be notified that their project has been deactived and will receive information about how to get involved with WP Education or WP Homeschooling. They will also recieve information about the possibility of the task force.
4. WikiProject Homeschooling will stay as a sub-project of WikiProject Education. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 20:47, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Votes

• Support, DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 23:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
• Support, Kimu 01:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment This isnt a vote, its a discussion to determine concensus. Twenty Years 04:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
• Support, elisa^talk. 14:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

• Support, Basketball110 _{Go Longhorns!} 01:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment This isnt a vote, its a discussion to determine concensus. Twenty Years 04:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose, I think you've misrepresented what you've done. You haven't "addressed my concerns", you've simply tried to buy off my support by saying "omg, I think Sherurcij should lead a new third group!", but I have no interest in power or ownership, and thus I stand by my former vote. The issue is that "Creating an AE Taskforce while shutting down the AE project, and creating a HS project" still seems like it's going to result in redundancies and decreased efficiency. I think the "ultimate" solution is for all three to be boiled down into a single project...ideally I'd like to see your ideas (newsletter, templates, collaborations) be imported into this project (which offers a broader scope), while "your" members make it clear on the memberlist that they are primarily interested in Homeschooling, and we all work as one cohesive group. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 21:05, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Reply. Well, if the members of WP Homeschooling are primarily interested in homeschooling, then I would think things are better off how they are. Merging the projects would mean selecting articles like the Montessori School stuff for collaboration, which is not what the Homeschooling project's members want to work on. What I mean is that members of the Homeschooling project are interested in Homeschooling related collaboration not stuff about Montessori schools. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 23:07, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Which is the point of collaborations, this month might be something that mostly interests me ("Homeschooling in Canada"), but I'd hope that you'll still contribute because next month might be something of specific interest to you ("Homeschooling in the United States" or whatever). But it's like saying "We should have a Wikiproject focused on Tolstoy's works dealing with Vegetarianism!", where the project is separate from the project dealing with Tolstoy's works in general. If there are a number of users specifically interested in homeschooling, then the general direction of this project will naturally curve that way (We only have one Waldorf Schooling advocate, as far as I know) over time -- but it's foolhardy to strike off and have two separate projects where we can be better served with only one. Technically some of "your" readers might not be interested in hearing Waldorf-related news in their newsletter, but still 85% of the newsletter is probably going to be homeschooling related...so they just have to learn to compromise and realise that other families take other approaches to education. Perhaps the best example would be if one of the members of WP:HS wanted to create a new project specifically for "Christian homeschoolers". Technically, the majority of homeschoolers are Christian, and thus presumably the members...but the lone Muslim homeschooler in your memberlist may feel his views are no longer represented if all the focus is on Christian homeschoolers who are tagging, collaborating and working on their specific targeted articles. It's better to just have a single project, even if 80% of members are going to naturally espouse a particular viewpoint. Because otherwise we are just ostracizing the families who would like to see some WikiWork done on articles about prominent topics in Unschooling, for example. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:19, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
      • What you just said about 85% of the Alternative Education articles being related to homeschooling really contradicts your earlier comment about how there are tons of articles related to Alternative Education that are not related to homeschooling. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 23:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
        • I said 85% of the material in a newsletter may end up being about Homeschooling. Please pay attention and do not try to resort to Straw man arguments. Stay on topic and respond to what is said, don't try to pick out a single (randomly chosen) percentage point and claim it invalidates your "opponent". Is there any reason my analogy about "Christian homeschoolers" leaving to start their own WP otherwise fails? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
          • The members at WP Homeschooling are there because they want to contribute to homeschooling-related articles, not Montessori school content and other unrelated stuff. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 13:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
• Support Burner0718 ^JibbaJabba! 02:34, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment This isnt a vote, its a discussion to determine concensus. Twenty Years 04:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose This project is active, why get rid of it. As a member of WP:EDU, WP:SCH, WP:ALTED and WP:HOME, i oppose any change here. The project is active, has 15+ members, and can easily stand on its own. This is simply note a vote, its a discussion to determine concensus. Twenty Years 04:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - it appears that as we have been talking in here the world is moving along - several users seem to have concluded the project is worthy of the investment of their time and have made it active again. Such drives in other projects I've been in have successfully revitalised them. The "voting" above is a bit silly, as proposals (unlike say requests for adminship) are evaluated on the strength of their arguments and those supporting and opposing, and solicited votes are usually ignored. As an admin with reasonable technical skills, I'm happy to offer the project my support and any help necessary in getting things moving, and in my personal belief, after looking at the entire situation and Sherurcij's comments in particular, I'd encourage the homeschooler project people to get on board and help us - in Australia where I come from people are members of multiple projects and work on all of them seamlessly and we do generate a lot of output that way. At the end of the day the interests, values and goals of the encyclopaedia should always come first, ahead of any individual - the fact neither project has an article above B-class and yet we're sitting here arguing is a case in point. As an aside, I'd ask Diligent Terrier whether he thinks the same standard should be applied to WikiProject Hotels, whose pages have only been edited twice since a day after its creation. Orderinchaos 05:02, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
• Comment about vote-stacking, note that there seems to have been some vote-requesting on this vote, which characterises this vote as "a non-member has been trying to shut down [WP Homeschooling]" which is patently untrue. Nobody has been trying to shut down WP:HS, in fact quite the opposite the vote is about closing the old project which DiligentTerrier seems to believe "competes" against his newly-founded group. This is clearly devolving into politicking and power-grabbing, which is terribly unfortunate. Misrepresenting the argument to cast yourself as victim and make people support your proposal is not only bad form, but it will simply invalidate the vote. Please try to maintain stricter standards of yourself and your project. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 02:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Excuse me, but this whole time you've been talking about shutting down WP Homeschooling and merging it into WP Alternative Education. And by the way, that wasn't vote stacking. I made it clear that I wanted users to consider both arguments, so it was only a notification of what is going on. How about we just leave everything how it is, and if this project can get ten active members, then we can continue. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 13:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
• I don't know, is Homeschooling a broad enough topic to have its own project? If not, it should probably be merged into this project with the possibility of a task force. I am neutral for now. - Maximillion Pegasus (talk) 15:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposal closed - moving on

With no comment for or against the following editors, it should be noted that several of the above editors may be supporting a proposal based on false information. The text posted on several people's talk pages over the course of today reads as follows:

As a member of WikiProject Homeschooling, I would like to inform you that recently a non-member has been trying to shut down the group and merge it into WikiProject Alternative Education. The reasoning behind this, he says, is that he wants the project to include more on non-homeschooling related content like Montessori schools. I have been trying to tell the editor that our members are not interested in editing non-homeschooling related articles as our Collaboration of the Month, (especially when our project is going along fine and considerably improving articles like the homeschooling article). I have proposed a proposal that would leave WikiProject Homeschooling how it is so we can continue with our work. But please remember that I didn't come here to ask you to just vote for it; instead, I want you to consider both options equally and decide for yourself, and discuss the proposal with other users if you disagree with any part of it. You can read and comment on it here. Please note that it is the one that says "Proposal by Diligent Terrier (2)". Cheers!

Two clear non-facts are presented above:

• The editor (User:Sherurcij) is not "trying to shut down the group" according to any evidence or proposals above.
• The proposal by Diligent Terrier has nothing to do with WikiProject Homeschooling and is actually attempting to shut this one down. A consensus on this talk page could not actually resolve anything regarding an unrelated WikiProject - that should be done at that WikiProject's talk page or the village pump.

The editors who have been canvassed have, with one exception [1] and one non-response as yet [2], all voted "Support" with no following comment. [3] [4] (and in shorter form [5] [6])

As they were regrettably denied their right to reasonable and correct information, their votes must be disregarded. Events have overtaken this proposal, with the revitalisation of this project, and I have therefore opted to archive this thread. Any questions or new proposals should be addressed to a new section. Orderinchaos 15:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, Sherurcij has been trying to shut down WikiProject Homeschooling this whole time and merge it into WP Alternative Education, as you can see in comments above. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 15:37, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Upon further thought...I would agree with you, Orderinchaos, if what you mean is letting the three projects mentioned this whole time (Homeschooling, Alternative Education, Education) stay how they are. There is nothing that says the Homeschooling project can't work with the Alternative Education project for a joint effort Colloaboration of the month, or something like that. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 15:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that would be the best outcome, personally. Orderinchaos 15:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Again DT, that is patently untrue. YOU were the only person to ever suggest merging the projects, after the topic came up I merely voiced my opinion that I believed AE was a broader scope and would prefer to see it revitalised. You'll also notice that I was the first WP:Homeschooling contributor to suggest the group take actions towards improving the Wiki, rather than just inviting more people to the group with promises of fancy titles and userboxes, and that was before I ever even saw WP:AE. I feel you've unfairly tried to characterise me as a "villain" to WP:HS members simply because you don't like the fact I have requested we think about what's best for WMF, rather than just ourselves. I did it before I even heard of WP:AE, and I continue to do it. Saying that I "want to shut down WP:HS" is both unfair and untrue.

Can we just stop this madness for the sake of being good neighbours. Lets move on, the time wasted here should have been spent on writing articles, and improving the encyclopedia. Thanks. Twenty Years 17:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Edits by DT

Recent edits by DiligentTerrier have removed photos from this Wikiproject without consensus (and continued removing them when they were replaced), and adding the {{Inactive}} template despite its wording that it should be removed if anybody thinks it is inactive. Since the group has had two active members editing it in the past 24 hours, I'd say it is definitely an active group. I'd ask that we please exercise due caution and use common sense when editing WikiProjects, especially ones that the editor is themselves asking to have deleted. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:59, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, what do you mean by "the editor is themselves asking to have deleted"? And those are goofy irrelevant photos to the project...so if you want to talk about common sense, then they shouldn't be there. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 00:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It is your belief that they are "Goofy", so if you would like them deleted, try to get consensus from active editors who are in the project. That would be "Common Sense" rather than engaging in a revert war (which you acknowledge in your edit summary). And since you are the force calling for this project to be abandoned and given up to being merged into your own project (or removed as a project entirely), you're hardly the most objective editor to be "deciding" that a project with two active editor-members in the past 24 hours should be labelled "inactive". It only serves your own political purposes. I'm trying to assume good faith here, but you're making it very difficult. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for: the Dead)} 00:15, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, WikiProject Council considers an active WikiProject to be one with at least 5 active editors who are making contributions to the project. Two is not enough. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 00:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

WP Council, while important for guidelines, don't actually run or even manage WikiProjects. Under the 5-editor estimate, about 75% of all WikiProjects, including two of the active ones I'm involved in, would not qualify. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy (and of that I'm quite glad, to be honest :)) Orderinchaos 04:52, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Um...we were actually talking about the pictures in the project page above. Twenty Years just removed them again, FYI. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 15:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Claiming that I removed the image is downright false and misleading. The image is still there, just further down the page. Stop being petty and move on. Twenty Years 15:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Oops...sorry thought you had entirely removed it. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 15:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.