Wikipedia talk:Userbox migration/Archive 3

Why into individual userspaces?

I'm curious--why are the userboxen being moved into individuals' spaces? I think they should be moved into a central space, i.e. User:Box, or something. Assuming nobody wants the username Box, of course... — Preceding unsigned comment added by SheeEttin (talk • contribs)

Exactly; this makes much more sense to me, really. Having userboxes in the userspace of User:Box or User:Template or some other neutral, non-editing username seems like a much more elegant solution than what we have here. After all, it would solve two issues nicely: that of people being forced to use the much longer wikicodes for userfied boxen, and Wikipedians being perceived as 'owning' userboxen in their userspace. CameoAppearance 07:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Not a bad idea, except the user is likely to get blocked by User:Tony Sidaway. See for example User talk:Boxes. —Ashley Y 08:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The "owning". That's the reason I couldn't put my finger on. In any case, I'm sure we could put a notice on the user and talk pages, saying something like "This is not a user, rather, it is a repository of a specific type of non-encyclopedic content. Please treat it as [something]." — SheeEttin {T/C} 22:27, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The counter-intuitiveness would seem to be the biggest head-scratcher for me. Two great advantages of userboxes (for new users especially) is that they are A)easy to find and use, and B)can automatically include you in lists of "Wikipedians who use..." Placing them in such decentralized locations is often confusing. Not to mention it's much more likely there will be duplicates, taking more space, as said above by Lady Aleena. Having a sort of repository, at User:Box, or, as suggested by CameoAppearance, using Wikipedia:Userbox as the basis seems far more elegant. - OrinR 07:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

This is probably one of the sillier things I've seen happen in the name of "neutrality".Before it was quick and easy to express your support for, I dunno, an MLB team.You just did User:MLB-<team nick>.Now we've got some ridiculously long string to type in that is in no way intuitive.This whole process of moving userboxes to people's personal space is ridiculous.Do the admin of Wikipedia seriously believe that readers are going to think Wikipedia is endorsing someone's choice of favorite baseball team, simply because they put up a lil icon on what is clearly an area for reflecting personal bias? We've substituted simplicity of use for absolute obscurity of use for no reason whatsoever. If Wikipedia is really worried about seeming to be involved in people's personal preferences, a far, far simpler solution would have been to have added disclaimers at various points around the site-"Provision of webspace for userboxes in no way implies that wikipedia.org endorses the opinions expressed", or somesuch.But this new nomenclature makes it very hard to enjoy userboxesat all.

I see, below, that native language, or Babel, boxes are still going to be in normal wiki template space.But that makes no sense, if the goal is really neutrality, because just displaying what form of a language you speak can be construed as a form of national pride.I don't particularly use it that way, and think that it's good to advise people that I will tend to use American English spellings and expressions.But I can easily see that people might construe this, or absolutely any, user box as "flying the flag", more than a point of information.And that's the point, really.Anyone reasonably knows that self-identification is the road to bias.It's not like this is some new phenomenon requiring a new solution.At the end of the day, whether you're talking about user space or sorta "neutral" wiki space-it's all a part of the Wikipedia Project. Allowing userboxes at all, in any format, on any part of the site, is Wikipedia saying, "We allow our users space to identify their preferences."So unless you're going to ban user boxes (and, really, editable user pages) entirely, moving them from one heirarchy to another is just a pointless waste of time and convenience.Give us back easy-to-understand nomenclature or take away user pages away entirely.-CzechOut 23:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Hear hear! (Seriously, that's all I have to say.) CameoAppearance ^orate 23:32, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

We may want to change the way we reference this

It sounds an awful lot like "The Final Solution", and given that it's German, uh, yeah.--Rob ^T 14:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, Rob, we have discussed about this before (here though now most in the talk archives, here and here). So far the result was maintaining the status quo. If you have a good new name (where good = not clunky) feel free to suggest it. Personally, I don't really mind what it is called (though I might object to tjstrf's Wikipedia:The opinion of certain dutchmen regarding the proper placement of userboxes, now a widely accepted method on the english wikipedia). CharonX/talk 22:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

"Bob"? Rfrisbie^talk 22:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Who is responsible for bypasses and redirects?

I've seen the redirect template {{User GUS UBX to}}, and I have also had userboxes on my own userpage redirected by bots. The question I have is, if I adopt a box, am I responsible for perfoming the redirects? Do I have to get myself a running bot? Do the people who currently have bots simply sweep the template boxes for redirects occasionally? And how do I know who is using a box in either my userspace or template space in order to inform them more directly that having the redirectbox show up in its place? --BlueSquadronRaven 20:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Some folks who move boxes also bypass the redirects, but many don't. I prefer to bypass with WP:AWB. It's a semi-automatic tool that also can be used to leave messages as edit summaries, as well as on talk pages.Category:Wikipedia GUS userboxes was created as a way to keep track of what pages still need bypassing.Some folks work on that list and are whittling it down too. "What links here" lets you know where a box is transcluded or linked.Rfrisbie^talk 21:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Userboxes/Pets is up for deletion

Wikipedia:Userboxes/Pets is up for deletion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Userboxes/Pets. Please weigh in. Rfrisbie^talk 19:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Does GUS justify speedy deletion?

I see GUS cited in dozens, if not hundreds, of speedy deletions of templates. Is this appropriate, given that GUS explicitly claims not to be a policy? Luna Santin 09:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Um... no I don't see it anywhere in the speedy rules... do you? Personally, I am quite confused here... any explianation would be nice. Thanks! -- Eagle (ask me for help) 23:46, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Templates that have been moved and have had tranclusions fixed to link to the new location are being speeding under CSD G6, which covers general maintenance tasks. Of course, a few templates are still being deleted under CSD T1 (divisive and inflammatory), but those deletions get fewer as more boxes are moved to user space. -Mira 01:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

How is this backed? By what existing policy or guideline? SynergeticMaggot 03:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Just so we know what we are talking about, CSD G6 is:

• Housekeeping. Non-controversial maintenance tasks such as temporarily deleting a page in order to merge page histories, performing a non-controversial page move like reversing a redirect, or removing a disambiguation page that only points to a single article.

This however, does not describe the situation. Neither does CSD T1. SynergeticMaggot 03:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Policy is descriptive, not prescriptive.Looks like someone needs to get around to editing it to reflect the current practices of deleting old userboxes as they are userfied.--Cyde Weys 03:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Well, just out of curiousity, why delete a user box instead of just moving it to the proper namespace? WP:TfD is the process no? SynergeticMaggot 03:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

They are being moved. But when a page is moved, a redirect is left behind, and must be deleted. -Mira 03:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

But what if they're being deleted without warning, discussion, move, or redirect? Luna Santin 03:57, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

MiraLuka, then someone should tell this to Cyde (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). We just had a template of ours deleted by this admin. I checked the log. Only a few moves done per GUS , yet there are alot of deletes per WP:GUS. A handful that are WikiProject related. SynergeticMaggot 04:00, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:GUS is controversial in that there are people who are against it. So G6 does not apply. All user templates are still templates and must go through the Template for Deletion process, no matter the subject matter. I will NEVER use a user template that is in user space, the code for those is atrocious and ugly to look at and are NOT Babel Box compatible. The templates moved to user space also lengthen the names of those templates to make them so long that most wrap in the categories, making the categories unsightly. GUS is not a solution, it is segregation and persecution, which makes it a big problem. - LA @ 09:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, they do work in Babel boxes. Instead of typing {{User:JohnDoe/Userbox/Purple}}, one would type :JohnDoe/Userbox/Purple. -Mira 19:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Amen to this thought:"All user templates are still templates and must go through the Template for Deletion process, no matter the subject matter."You can't by-pass the TfD criteria just because you think it "shouldn't be a template."That is precisely why the TfD process exists - to determine whether something should be a template.--NThurston 18:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, you can't get around this argument by moving it somewhere outside of Template: space. --NThurston 18:15, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the heart of my objection to GUS; I'm sure I'm not alone but I'll let others speak for themselves.

GUS was introduced as "not a policy proposal"; as "something optional" for each user to do or not do as he pleased. It was then used as an escape route for UBX being beaten out of templatespace by deletionist admins, either by speedy or by hasty close on TfD. The argument, express or implied, is always, "Don't complain about the speedy; GUS the box." Other anti-boxers started moving UBX en masse to userspace, deleting index pages that list them, and killing categories as well. "Hey, I'm just following GUS."

Well, it's just too cute. "GUS is not a proposal, so you can't reject it." In other words, you must follow GUS, since you can't even formulate an objection to it. Ha ha. This entire "not policy" label has been a tool used to leapfrog the entire consensus building process and force GUS into de facto policy without possibility of appeal.

That's not how I want my community run. John Reid 05:18, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Comments moved from project page

Comment: The migration of the boxes should be done with pagemoves. The userbox template pages are simply moved instead of their contents being copied. This too could be automated.This is the only way to avoid breaking userpages and maintain template edit history (important for our site license).

Comment: The trouble is, this removes them from Template: space. While that might be considered part of the German solution, the issue of userboxes in Template: space has not been resolved. Certainly people would complain if various other Template: pages were moved to user-space. —Ashley Y 04:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment: How about contacting them (using a bot in high-usage cases) and explaining them the rationale. Ask them to comment on this idea, offering their alternatives. CharonX/talk 17:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Why not, instead of associating a template with any particular user, move the userboxes to subpages of User:Template? After all, there doesn't appear to be an actual user named Template, and someone can block the username if they haven't already. It makes sense: User:Template/... for a user template. Seahen 22:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Check the talk page. It's not a popular idea. -Mira 23:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Makes more sense (to me) than associating them with individual users with whom they may have no connection at all. CameoAppearance 10:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Question?:- Assuming a user moves userbox templates to, or an archive page of, their userpage, which is then automatically linked to from multiple other users. If that user then comes into conflict with wiki and leaves, resulting in their userpage being deleted.Would that not then lose all userboxes stored thereon, thus affecting all other linked userpages? Richard Harvey 11:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Answer Yes, theoretically this is possible. However as many admins also support WP:GUS it should be easy to get the box archive temporarily undeleted and then moved and adopted into another archive. CharonX/talk 13:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I think you're confused.Deleting a userpage does not delete everything in that user's userspace, it just ... deletes the userpage.Since the userboxes won't be on the userpage anyway it won't matter.Of course, I suppose if one user leaves another is welcome to adopt the userboxes from his archive if he wishes.--Cyde↔Weys 22:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

---

I think in this special case (and hoping and praying that we won't see another userbox war) we should simply contact admins that have shown a postive stance towards userboxes like User:Grue. CharonX/talk 00:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Deleting userboxes - What's the process?

There seems to be plenty of precedent behind moving boxes, bypassing redirects, then deleting original boxes..and even gallery pages, e.g., Category:Wikipedia GUS userboxes. But what about the "not here anymore" deletions, e.g., Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2006 August 13#Two user templates? This amounts to a de-facto CSD something of the order, "Unencyclopedic userbox." The "controversial" topic gallery pages had warnings from Jimbo and such about not creating new boxes in projectspace. They are basically gone. Now, we're into the "worthy/unworthy to be with the Babel boxes" mix. How do we sort these out in a way that is at least as orderly and respectful of differing viewpoints as the more touchy boxes? Rfrisbie^talk 16:14, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

• It looks to me like the real issue here is judging images from a neutral POV.Maybe an established timeline, defined objectives, voting comittee, and an Ultimate Time-Test would help. Zana Dark 16:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

{{User GUS UBX to}}

A major change was just made to this template.Peer review would be appreciated.--Pascal666 13:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course, the template is used in more than one way. The way it's probably used most often - move box, slap on template, bypass redirects, delete original - probably is the most disruptive.The less disruptive alternative is - move box, bypass redirects, slap on template, delete original. Even better would be to keep the original page in protected mode with the template, but of course, deletionist admins refuse to allow that.I would reinsert the original usage suggestion as an alternative, but it's protected and I'm not an admin. Someone sympathetic to "many paths to the same goal" will have to step in. Rfrisbie^talk 14:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

What's the point of WP:GUS if you're keeping the original template?It has to be deleted eventually or it's not the German solution.And Pascal666's suggested usage of {{User GUS UBX to}} basically means it would never be used, because as soon as it would be allowed to be used it'd be ready to be deleted anyway.--Cyde Weys 14:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

We all have our viewpoints on the right thing to do. I disagree with you on deleting the original page. Obviously, you win. So be it. Every once in a while, I'm going to point out a dissenting view from your hard line position.That's the point. I originally created the template to replace the in-your-face "page deleted" message with some options on how to migrate redirects along with the boxes. I agree the way I move most boxes now, immediately bypassing redirects, doesn't need the template. It's really only useful now if there's a delay between moving and redirecting. Rfrisbie^talk 14:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I confess to sometimes using the disruptive method. However, given that {{User GUS UBX to}} links to a cetegory to alert others to its redirection, I don't feel so bad about it. Truth is that I have, in the recent past, adopted userboxes with literally a couple hundred users linking to it. I'm a relatively new editor, so AWB is not likely to be an option for me. The result: About a day of work for one template. Ouch. In my case, the GUS template has indeed been usefull, if disruptive in the short term. --BlueSquadronRaven 20:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the template does not "links to a cetegory to alert others to its redirection." It links to the old and new userbox pages. It's added to Category:Wikipedia GUS userboxes, primarily for bots to do the redirect bypassing...later. If "you" are going to do the redirect bypassing, there's really no need to use "User GUS UBX to". Just do the bypassing then list the original page at the category's talk page...and it will magically disappear. That's the same amount of work for you, and no real disruption to the user pages. Rfrisbie^talk 21:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Migration status page

I started a migration status page to help focus the arguments discussions about how to proceed with GUS. Have at it. Rfrisbie^talk 20:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

So, are we supposed to be talking there, or here? Either way, I'd like to comment that moving the wikiproject boxes to the wikipedia namespace is, in my opinion, unnecessary, and additionally is inconsistant with the Babel and licensing boxes being included in the main template space. --tjstrf 18:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Here is a good place to talk. I marked two columns on that one because Wikipedia:Userboxes/WikiProjects has boxes listed in template and Wikipedia space. Personally, I don't see any need to move boxes either, but some projects choose to have boxes as subpages. Either way seems fine to me. Rfrisbie^talk 18:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, though why you put that table on the talk sub-page rather than the project sub-page, I don't know. I do know that a few projects have moved their userboxes, but I think that was the result of a misguided over-application of TGS. Or, in the case of Wikiproject anime and manga, to protect them from a certain admin who spontaneously deleted their project box, stating it was "passe". --tjstrf 18:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I made the migration status page a talk subpage because it's really a part of this discussion, but too long to just add as a section. I don't care if someone moves it under the project page. Rfrisbie^talk 18:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It make a lot of sense to have WikiProject-related userboxes in projectspace rather than templatespace.It's a bit more tidy that way, and it's immediately clear who that userbox "belongs" to simply by looking at its location.Some of the WikiProject-related userboxes I've seen have had very confusing abbreviated names.--Cyde Weys 18:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

In which case, the proper procedure would be to move them to a better template name. I consider it less tidy, as they now have untidy sub-page titles. More importantly, what is the logical difference between Babel and project boxes that one should be treated differently? --tjstrf 18:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Cease and desist out of process deletions and moves

There are two processes which are available to move a userbox which are being blatantly ignored by some of the users who have embraced this idea, which is not policy so has no official standing. Until such time it does, which I will fight to keep from ever happening, those processes should not ever be ignored.

The first process is Requested moves. The other is Templates for deletion. If neither process has been initiated, then the userbox should remain where it is until such time as consensus has been reached for each individual box. Only after consensus can a judgement be reached where each box should be located.

Do not ignore those processes. - LA @ 16:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

(Weakly) Seconded. Ian¹³/t 21:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

One more thing:History should be preserved when moving userboxes, in order to comply with wikipedia's licensing requirements.It seems that this important point has been overlooked on many occasions.Shame.--71.36.251.182 17:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

History requirements are important, but the request cease and desist order to stop moving userboxes except via RM/TFD is sheer processlawyering. Many, many moves are performed on a regular basis on this encyclopedia without controversy or delay. Many, many userboxes have been moved to userspace without controversy or delay. Please, pick another hill to die on. GUS is working for the vast majority of users. -- nae'blis 22:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

(Strongly) Here here!! --NThurston 18:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• Cease and desist. GUS is not policy. John Reid 05:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Addendum

GUS is not a solution, it is a problem. These are templates and all templates belong in template space. I refuse to accept this solution which puts these flowers in the attic and under the stairs. This is segregation and appartheid of these templates. These templates are being put in back alleys as if they were contraband.

---

GUS makes user template categories hard to read. Seeing a list of GUSd user templates on a user page listing makes it jumbled.

Instead of seeing in a category...

• Template:User A
• Template:User Good
• Template:User Idea

...we would have...

• User:Someuser/Userboxdir/User A
• User:Anotheruser/Userboxdir/User Good
• User:Anotheruser2/Userboxdirdiff/User Idea

Instead of seeing on a user page...

{{User A}}
{{User Good}}
{{User Idea}}

...we would have...

{{User:Someuser/Userboxdir/User A}}
{{User:Anotheruser/Userboxdir/User Good}}
{{User:Anotheruser2/Userboxdirdiff/User Idea}}

The first is easy to read and navigate, the second is an eyesore.

---

And what happens when one of these people who is taking in so many user templates gets tired of Wikipedia, decides to clean house, and quit? That user could db-author the lot and, when some unsuspecting admin comes along, all of those templates are deleted without a second thought. What admin cleaning up the Speedy deletions category would care if the user page has a template on it or not? The user could even hide that the GUSd template's being up for speedy deletion by putting the db inside a noinclude. No one with that template would know until the user pages with those templates transclused were loaded with a lot of redlinks. Template space is completely neutral and admins might take a longer look at what is speedied there than anything in user space. - LA @ 09:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

GUS is the solution to the problem of some admins deciding that Template: space must be kept simon-pure. No, having userboxes there was not a problem, but the wars over them were, and the GUS is the compromise that silenced those wars (at least for now). It's the way things will be, and there's no chance in hell it'll be reversed. Jay Maynard 15:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Undoing "per GUS" moves

I have created a userbox to use in undo-ing inappropriate "per GUS" moves: Template:User_SUS_UBX_to can be placed in the user area when a userbox is moved back to its original Template:User spot. --NThurston 20:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how that encourages anything but revert wars over the location of userboxes. -Mira 21:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

No way in hell.GUS is the solution; what you are trying to do is go back to the unacceptable situation as it was way back in December.The rules on the ground have changed significantly since then and you will be blocked for disruption if you keep this up.--Cyde Weys 21:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

GUS is the problem. John Reid 05:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Wikipedia:German userbox solution/Userbox

Wikipedia:German userbox solution/Userbox has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Miscellany for Deletion page. Thank you. -Mira 21:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Humor next?

Congratulations on taking care of all of the Zodiac stuff.I'm thinking Wikipedia:Userboxes/Humor should be next.--Cyde Weys 02:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Any particular reason? CameoAppearance 08:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

They're utterly unencyclopedic and I don't know why we have them in the first place. I would have thought they would have been userfied long ago. Also, why is Template:User Person listed as humour? I would consider it politics or beliefs. --tjstrf 15:54, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

We have them because they're funny. That's the point of humour. CameoAppearance 02:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Funny? Yeah, the majority of them are very funny indeed... And regardless, they are most definitely NOT encyclopedic. Far less so than even the dreaded and much-defamed User Christian at its worst. --tjstrf 02:17, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

How are they any less encyclopedic than, say, prattling on about one's favourite food? CameoAppearance 06:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Those need to go out of template space as well. The presence of one dish of tripe does not make the presence of another dish of tripe any more palatable. --tjstrf 06:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

You have a point; I just found it interesting that although they don't contribute to the encyclopedia any more than joke userboxes do, not a single one of the userboxes on that page has been userfied, nor has it been singled out for 'taking care of'. CameoAppearance 11:46, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

A handful have been userified, I've removed them from the directory. And I think Cyde just picked a section for the next target, the food templates will be moved eventually, I'm sure. -Mira 19:23, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

EPL

I have just adopted and userfied the boxes pertaining to English Premier League teams from Wikipedia:Userboxes/Sports/Football. There are some bozes which are not actual templates but just the raw code. I will probably create boxes for those teams in due time, so that they continue to be available after that page is deleted. I don't know if I will yet get ambitious and get ALL the FA teams, but I'llkeep you posted. --BlueSquadronRaven 20:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Userfied boxes and WP:BOX

Why have the userfied userboxes been removed from Wikipedia:Userboxes? Up until now it was apparently acceptable practice to leave them on their respective pages post-userfication; why has that changed? CameoAppearance 04:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

They're being removed so they don't crowd the page with non-template space boxes. WP:UBX and its subpages are being deleted after all boxes have been moved to user space, and removing the ones that have already been moved helps keep track of what's left to do. -Mira 08:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The straw poll does not show a consensus for that. —Andux^␅ 00:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Request for Information

I am officially requesting of ANYONE and EVERYONE who can provide me with information regarding:

1. Where it was determined by community concensus that Wikipedia:Userfying userboxes (which was rejected by the community), is now acceptable?
2. Where it was determined by community concensus that WP:GUS may be used as a rationale for an editor's actions (as one might use a policy statement or guideline).
3. Where it was determined by community concensus that NO userboxes may be created in template space. (I see this addition to WP:GUS but have, as yet, found no community concensus supporting it.)
4. Where it was determined by community concensus that such templates that the community has determined that T1 applies to (those that are divisive or inflammatory), are to be allowed to be userfied prior to (or even after) speedy deletion.

What I am NOT asking for/about at this time:

1. Your opinion of whether m:deletionism, m:inclusionism, or any other -ism, is "more correct".
2. Your opinion of whether or not userboxes should exist.
3. Your opinion of where userboxes should exist.
4. That templates should not have fair use images. ("Fair use images should be used only in the article namespace.")
5. That "Templates, particularly userboxes, which are divisive or inflammatory may be speedily deleted; see Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Templates. For discussion, see Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#Comment on project page asked for links to Jimbo's opinions, and especially Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#Regarding the new Template CSD.However, Jimbo Wales has urged both caution in deleting userboxes while the policy is discussed, and, in particular, restraint in reversing others' deletions or undeletions." - Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Guanaco, MarkSweep, et al#Divisive or inflammatory userboxes may be speedily deleted and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Tony Sidaway#Polemical or inflammatory userboxes may be speedily deleted
6. WP:JOU
7. WP:T1D

Please either respond here, or on this talk page. Thank you in advance - Jc37 18:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been wondering about this myself... CameoAppearance 21:12, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:BOX being phased out

I believe I originally asked this somewhere else, but it was never answered; either way, I'd like to know why Wikipedia:Userboxes is now being considered an unsuitable location for a centralised userbox directory (the function it used to serve), as opposed to directories in userspace (of which there are currently several, so none can really be considered 'centralised'). CameoAppearance 21:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Because the anti-userbox admins don't want people to find userboxes, and so they're slowly stamping them out. Jay Maynard 22:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

No need to be so negative. WP:AGF, and at the very least realize that both sides on the Userbox debate have always had the best interest of the Wiki in their minds, according to their own perspective. Userspace directories for Userfied boxes seems sensible, leaving Wikipedia:Userboxes for the project and Babel boxes similarly sensible. (Well, if not sensible, at least internally consistent.) --tjstrf 03:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with it, so long as WP:UBX gets some kind of pointer to one (or even several) of the userspace directories at that point; otherwise, I can see it being unnecessarily hard for new users to find the non-project/Babel boxes. (Having something like that now would be nice, if we're going to remove userfied boxes from the Wikipedia-namespace directory, but it isn't necessary quite yet.) CameoAppearance 05:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

There are links to the main user space locations in the "Gallery" section of WP:UBX. -Mira 07:26, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I wish I didn't feel so negative about it...but the comments about userboxes from admins like Cyde and Tony Sidaway have left a very bad taste in my mouth that will take a long, long time to go away. I'm having a hard time assuming good faith in the face of actions, especially by Tony, that demonstrate a lack of it. Jay Maynard 12:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I wish I could AGF too, but Cyde has clearly demonstrated a lack of willingness to even abide by the language of GUS (and been repeatedly called on repeatedly to no avail).I have been told that WP space and userspace are both legitimate locations for userboxes.Therefore, I fail to see why both WP and User can't be acceptable locations for directories.I think Cyde needs to play open and fair else I fear that the supposed compromise that is called GUS will eventually fail.I predict that unless the anti-userbox folks start abiding the truce, the free-speech userbox people will start creating them again in a centralized location, and what have we gained?--NThurston 13:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, if that does happen, then I'll have just been right about The German Pacification not really resolving anything, and we'll restart from scratch. Even if we didn't gain anything, we learned one thing that won't work, so we can try something else next time. --tjstrf 22:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I do think there's one notion out of this discussion worth considering: a central gallery. Perhaps when all is said and userfied, the Wikiproject:Userboxes area would be a good spot for a central gallery, linking to boxes spread hither and yon. --BlueSquadronRaven 16:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate template SD by User:Cyde

I am having a serious issue with Cyde's Speedy Deleting user templates in violation of GUS.In particular, GUS itself says "Parts between <<double angle brackets>> should only be performed if there is consensus between all affected users. See the userbox location straw poll."and <<No new userboxes should be created inside template space. Userboxes created there are subject to speedy deletion.[?]>> is clearly between double angle brackets.Therefore, GUS says that SD should not be performed on new userboxes in categories that according to the straw poll have no consensus to not be in Template:.I suppose the implication would be that these would have to either be left alone or go through TfD, but definitely not SD.In general, what should be the policy for dealing with admins that claim to use GUS when it's to their advantage, but then ignore GUS when it doesn't fit with their biased views?--NThurston 14:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

GUS is not policy, it's not binding, and no one actually has to pay attention to it.If Cyde wants to ignore parts of it, that's his perogative.--digital_me^{(Talk•Contribs)} 16:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

So your point is that he can claim that it's policy, use it as an argument to justify deleting templates, threaten to block people for undo-ing his deletes and moves, but he's not bound by any of it?A person behaving like this is not good for wikipedia.Hence, my question, what can be done to address this situation?--NThurston 16:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

And besides, if GUS is truly not policy, then Cyde is violating admin standards by deleting templates without going through appropriate channels.Without GUS, there is no CSD for an otherwise non-offensive or non-divisive template.(T1 was the CSD of choice, but it wouldn't apply to Template:User FAU.)So what's to be done in the case you are right? --NThurston 22:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

If it's not policy, then why are people being urged not to create new userboxes in template space on the main page of WP:UBX? That strikes me as... odd, if nothing else. CameoAppearance 00:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

What's odd about "urging" people to do something that doesn't happen to be policy?It may not be policy (making a rule that hasn't yet been implemented into policy is all but impossible here), but it's what's going down. -GTBacchus^(talk) 02:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

That's true; I'd say something about wondering why people treated it as a rule, but posting that comment kicked off a line of thought that was expressed as the question heading the section below, so I won't bother. CameoAppearance 09:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Some of these speedy deletes were of things which would seem to reasonably 'belong' in the template namespace, specifically 'babel' boxes for writing systems, and I have reversed those. If people want any others restored either because they want to Germanize them or because there is consensus that they are allowed in the template namespace just let me know. As stated above, there isn't any policy allowing wholesale deletion of userboxes and WP:GUS only suggests (without the force of policy) such deletions under specific conditions which don't seem to apply here. --CBD 10:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It isn't a policy... right?

I've been wondering... it says, right at the top of the page, that GUS isn't an actual policy; by my understanding, that means people are given the option to move userboxes into their userspace and make new ones there instead of templatespace, but it doesn't force the community to make no new templatespace userboxes or move every single userbox into userspace (as Wikipedia:Userfying userboxes would have if made policy).

Why, then, are people treating it as if it was a policy? I mean, as far as I know there's been no consensus on what to do with userboxes or where they should be located, so why do I keep seeing things like "Userfy as per WP:GUS" at TfDs? Why is there a big red-bordered box at the top of WP:UBX telling people "New userboxes created in the Template namespace, with few exceptions, will be deleted"? (This is probably true, but it being stated there, alongside "It is recommended that new userboxes be created in userspace" and the mention of WP:GUS, makes it appear that the reasoning behind that is part of the German solution rather than people who are against userboxes putting them up for deletion (or anti-userbox admins deleting them outright).)

CameoAppearance 00:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

There is certainly consensus that we don't want to go back to the dark days of last year with userboxes being summarily deleted by admins, only to resurface minutes later, and the general disruptions this entailed. Ultimately, most likely, the policy will be that userboxes will be removed from Template space, one way or the other. Either those who like the subject matter of the userbox adopt them into their userspace, German style, or they will get deleted. The only reason there's no policy as it stands is because, ultimately, userboxes have nothing to do with being an encyclopedia. I suspect the higher ups are just giving everyone time to claim those boxes that someone feels should be kept. As it is, old userbox directories have started to be deleted. --BlueSquadronRaven 16:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe there is a consensus that not every userbox must be (or will be) removed from Template:However, there is not a consensus as to what that means.This is my major beef with the GUS police - that stuff is being moved, deleted, etc. without any consistency or direction and in most cases, in direct contradiction to the current/proposed language in WP:GUS.In short, the run-and-gun implementation is premature and is likely to cause the war to flare up again.Believing that the main value in GUS is as a truce, I would hate to see it fail so early, and right now it seems that the main culprits for non-compliance are on the anti-UBX side. --NThurston 16:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I can see that it's at least cutting down on the Userbox Wars, and I definitely don't want to completely reverse it, even if I have issues with the way it's being implemented. I think it's an acceptable solution, even if it doesn't seem to me like the most elegant way to do things (although that might be a plus for some people, given some of the statements I've seen). I just want to know why it seems like the majority of people involved in the issue aren't following the "Wikipedians who want to do so are free to userfy userboxes but don't have to do it" message that I interpreted GUS as. CameoAppearance 07:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I can't speak for others, but personally, I've only been adopting userboxes that I feel strongly about either preserving through any potential real mass deletion or that are on a subject I enjoy. As such I've been adopting only a few here and there. I feel that I have a responsibility to these boxes (which I've outlined on my userbox page) but as such I'm trying not to bite off more than I can chew. --BlueSquadronRaven 08:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Request to move to sub-page

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus for move. Joelito (talk) 17:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Just saw the move request.Would like to see some justification for why NThurston believes this page should be moved.Until then, and unless there is a really good reason, put me down as Oppose.This page gets enough attention (including a recent signpost link) that I don't see any reason to demote it to a sub-page. --StuffOfInterest 18:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose While there is some grounds for consolidation into one area, I'd oppose this unless it can be done in such a away that the shortcuts to the German Solution page remain intact. --BlueSquadronRaven 19:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Consolidation is the idea.I don't think that it makes sense for it to exist as a separate concept from the Userboxes project, especially as it is becoming widely accepted.I don't think of sub-pages as less important (hence not demoted).Related pages should be together on the same project.Of course, we would make the shortcuts and all other existing references work.That's the easy part.--NThurston 19:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose I see no need for this to be moved to a subpage. -Mira 08:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose Links to related pages work just fine. Rfrisbie^talk 12:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose, gratuitous, won't aid in any conceivable way. --tjstrf 14:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose, can't see any way it'll help. CameoAppearance 07:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose While it is true that WP:GUS has been accepted as standard procedure, I fail to see the benefits of moving it to a subpage. CharonX/talk 14:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose I don't think it needs to be moved to it's own sub-page, since the other userbox proposals are not sub-pages either. If they were, then I would change to Support. - Jc37 15:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose GUS is not part of Wikiproject Userboxes. Suggested again by NThurston in his bias against GUS, shown by moving the userbox pegbord page. I would consider this BORDERLINE WP:POINT. This is not Project Userboxes or any subproject of it. If you don't like GUS, just say and move on. Don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point, and stop stalking GUS trying to turn back the clock. GUS is practically law as it is endourced by Jimbo, you aren't going to kill it by continually pounding it. -Royalguard11^TalkDesk 18:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• Comment This may only be borderline WP:POINT, but it is definitely encroaching on WP:NCR. --BlueSquadronRaven 22:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Agreed, even if you think TGS sucks, trying to gratuitously shuffle pages around is just annoying. If you want to change the practice, what you need to do is wait until TGS fails, then come up with a better solution. That's what I plan on doing. --tjstrf 22:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Identity Thieft

Should all userboxes be moved to namespace we will see(using Addendum's example):

{{User A}}
{{User Good}}
{{User Idea}}

...we would have...

{{User:Someuser/Userboxdir/User A}}
{{User:Anotheruser/Userboxdir/User Good}}
{{User:Anotheruser2/Userboxdirdiff/User Idea}}

This promotes that the userbox "belongs" to and only "reflects" to that user, when in fact it belongs to Wikipedia and the users it promotes.
A possible solution is to give the creator of any userbox the right to block his template for possibly a period of 3 months. Once the three months are up, the template can be modified, but untill then only the user who created the template can modify it, thus keeping userboxes in template namespace and an end to warring. Chris5897 09:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

There were plenty of userboxes out there that reflected a user base of one. Indeed, under GUS, the same may be true (I've adopted userboxes with NO links to them at all). On the other hand, if someone does not like the look of a userbox maintained by another user, there is also now no reason not to create a differently styled but semantically identical userbox for their own usage. Personally, I feel people adopting or making available userboxes should adopt a "code of conduct" for maintaining them, which I started advertising as such on my own userbox archive page. The main points of it are:

1. Promote the existance of the userbox.
2. Make it available for all Wikipedians to use.
3. Keep them in a browsable, logically organized directory on your own page, in addition to anywhere else they are listed.
4. Make the design and colours of the box fit the subject and
5. Manage vandalism.

That's my take on it. Thoughts? (Personally, I think something like this should be on the main GUS page!) --BlueSquadronRaven 20:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Go for it! :-) Rfrisbie^talk 20:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Done! --BlueSquadronRaven 16:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Cool!

Rfrisbie^talk 16:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I like the idea of making your own userboxes, but don't think it should be required. But I may not be understanding the proposal --tjstrf 16:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Nobody forces you to make or substitute your own userbox. As it were with templates, you can just transclude them on your userpage, just instead of{{User discworld}} you now type {{User:CharonX/Userboxes/User discworld}} to do that. CharonX/talk 19:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Going official?

Well, so far WP:GUS has performed well, there aren't any more userbox wars and all in all I think we have more supporters than opponents. Still, one of the issues for those against WP:GUS is that it is - as it was intended to - not a official policy. It can operate effortlessly within the existing policy and guidelines setting, but still it is a "just do it" solution. So, to give those, who would prefer an official policy regarding userboxes, the peace of mind, I wondered if we should step forward and propose this as a policy. Of course this would mean we would have to tackle two issues we had avoided so far - the location of the types of userboxes (see the straw poll) and the question of archives (though I think our existing userspace archives perform admirably). Since this would be a big step I'd like your input. CharonX/talk 12:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. Still - a poll would clear up a few matters. I would express concerns that it will be bias though - most people coming here are likely to support it. Ian¹³/t 17:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm ambivalent on this; I don't see a problem with userboxes remaining in template space (and I think that WP:UBX should continue to serve its original function as a repository for all userboxes), but I do recognise that GUS has largely put a stop to the userbox wars of days past and I'm grateful for that. As for day-to-day use, the lengthened names are mildly annoying but still tolerable to implement. CameoAppearance 23:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes but a list of userboxes can be obtained by running a quick SQL on the db to find Template:User *, but this sort of organisation cannot take place with userboxes dispurced all over the userspace. Ian¹³/t 16:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

If GUS is performing, as you say, as intended, without being official policy, then leave it that way. Instead, go the opposite route. Propose as policy that any non-encyclopedic userboxes (Babel, and other such boxes... use the straw poll as a guide but use some judgement) be eradicated from template space with extreme prejudice. Then, we can put this behind us and concentrate on the more pressing issue: organization of a directory across multiple user pages. --BlueSquadronRaven 16:36, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

A hideous idea, rotten to the core. GUS has been shoved by brute force down the throat of an unwilling community, greased by the soothing tones of "this is not policy, this is not a proposal, it's entirely voluntary". My main objection to GUS, indeed, has been the assumption of policy that its boosters wield as they rampage through UBX-space. I'll not hand them another jar of Vaseline. John Reid 02:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Problem with GUS

Just an aside, but there is one inherent, and severe problem with WP:GUS.

There is absolutely nothing stopping someone from moving all userfied userboxes to their own user pages.This REALLY is setting up an issue of WP:OWN.After all, what would be said to stop them?If all user space falls under GDFL, and userboxes are usable by all...Thing is, someone could do this right now. It's in no way a violation of the rules (if it were, userfication would be as well), so it in no ways violates WP:POINT. I think you can see where this could go.

Oh, and by the way... the actual german userbox solution was to create a username called "Vorlage" (the name of the german template space), and move all userboxes (and some other templates) to that user's subpages.(Though apparently we at the en:Wikipedia voted down having a centrallized userspace directory in that way...) So technically, whatever it is that this page (WP:GUS) is professing be done, it actually ISN'T the german userbox solution : )

The trouble here seems to have to do with how the namespaces are set up, and the opinion of what some think is "official".It's all GDFL.It's all a part of the "encyclopedia that anyone can edit".There are direct aids, and indirect aids.Anyone who says that there are no indirect aids, can delete their userpages entirely, resign sysop status if admins, post the signpost and the Village Pump for AfD, and all the rest of the Wikipedia: pages. But of course, just because there are those who believe there are no indirect aids, doesn't mean that that belief is accurate.

If you don't believe that Userboxes are a useful indirect aid to wikipedia, you're entitled to your opinion.But realize that obviously there are many wikipedians who feel differently.

I personally attempted to create a userbox showing that I was interested in the Roman Empire.It was "userfied".I challenge anyone to explain how a subject of over 1000 years of documented history is not notable for this encyclopedia.

No threat, no tantrum, no personal attack. I consistantly have been (and continue to be) civil, and honestly attempting to discuss, including questioning whatever or whoever, in order to gain clarification.

Please feel welcome to do/be the same.Several "discussions" are forthcoming. - jc37 23:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh my, where to begin...

If someone moves however many hundreds of userboxes there are to their own userspace... I'd be amazed they had that kind of time on their hands. However, by your same argument there's nothing to stop them being moved back. I also stated previously that there is also nothing to prevent you from creating a semantically identical userbox in your own userspace if you don't like/trust/fathom the person who maintains the one you wanted to use.

Please cite your source for the "actual" German solution and explain why and how we (and Jimbo) misinterpreted it. Better yet, bring someone from the German wikipedia to explain it.

The subject of the Roman Empire is entirely suited to this encyclopedia. A statement of your personal interest in it is not, unless you were to warrant an article about yourself in the actual encyclopedia on the grounds of your being an authority on the Roman Empire. (And, in that case, I suspect one of the education userboxes stating your degree or qualifications would be in order, which, in the Straw Poll, are strongly favoured to remain in templatespace.)

I also mentioned this point in the straw poll, but it bears repeating here: The vast majority of userbox statements about a user could just as easily be placed in the text of the userpage itself, with no need of a template at all. In my opinion, only Babel and professional or academic qualifications boxes are any use as "indirect aids" as they identify experts on a particular subject with regard to encyclopedic content, or individuals who can aid in article translation. --BlueSquadronRaven 07:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

You are looking for de:User:Vorlage and this Meinungsbild/Vote. It appears though, that only geographical userboxes are hosted on that generic useraccount. Agathoclea 10:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Agathaclea, my german's a bit rusty : ) - jc37 11:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

BlueSquadron, most of what I read in your response is just a matter of personal opinion. For example, just because you may feel that only language aids are indirect aids, doesn't make it true : )

Yes, anyone "could" place simple text on their userpage, that doesn't mean that they should be required" to do so.

And Wikipedia doesn't cater to "experts" (There is another discussion about that right now).What you're thinking of is either Nupedia, or at Digital Universe.

As for the "moving back"... Yes, that was what I was saying.This can lead to wheel warring.And since there are few rules which would cover this, it becomes problematic quickly.What do you tell a sysop? Someone took what I took?I think Apple lost to Microsoft on similar grounds.This whole question of "My User pages" makes the whole thing rather problematic.

And by the way, it probably should be said (since I have noticed that editors may at times become "overzealous"): I am not suggesting that anyone start such a wheel war. (I would consider that a rather "bad idea").

In any case, thanks for answering even though you seem to feel that you "should probably stop answering these" (whatever the perjorative "these" means...). - jc37 11:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

By the same token, just because you DO feel other userboxes are indirect aids doesn't make it true either, any more than your feeling that userfying userboxes is a bad idea. These arguments are getting as circular as any wheel warring, and since it seems more than evident you are not going to change your opinions any more than GUS supporters are, I shall leave it at that. --BlueSquadronRaven 17:28, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Confusing, and I think this is not the best solution...

Look, first, let me say that I'm just going to be brutally honest about this: I think that this is a really bad solution. If we move all the userboxes to user subpages (which is my understanding of what this says we should do) then we ill never be able to find any pages. And besides, is this the best idea that we can come up with? Just move them to pages that will, in effect, hide them? Plus, if we are going to do this, why not do it in a slightly smarter way... let me use the Red Sox fan box (the exact name of which I cannot recall right now, so I'll just pretend its Red Sox) Since the Red Sox box is about the Boston Red Sox, it could be moved to [[Boston Red Sox/Red Sox]]. This method could be used for all useroxes that can be reasonably tied to an article. Anyway, let me know what you think about everything I said here. aido2002 22:42, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

One more thing... do we have to follow this, or keep things thst were moved due to it? If not, I am going to move the Template:User wikipedia/Administrator someday userbox back to its own page. Let me know soon. aido2002 22:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

"Have to"?That's a funny way to think about it.We don't "have to" get along with each other.This solution is a way that we can.If you move userboxes back to Template: space, they'll likely be deleted.Of course, you can contest that deletion, but everyone will groan and ask why you're resurrecting a long-dead dispute.This solution may seem sub-optimal from certain perspectives, but it makes a lot of sense in the context where it arose.

As for your issue with finding things, have you not noticed that handy navigational templates that index all the userboxes by type, giving links to user subpages where they can be found?Like, click back out to WP:GUS, and look at the bottom of the page.Now, what's "hidden", exactly?

Finally, regarding your idea about making userboxes subpages of actual articles... it won't fly.Maybe, in some world, that would be a good idea, but there's a pretty strong current of Wikipedians who are firm about wanting to keep community-related stuff out of the Template: and Wikipedia: namespaces, that feeling applies all the more to the article namespace, which is reserved for the actual encyclopedia. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:57, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, in response to:

""Have to"?That's a funny way to think about it.We don't "have to" get along with each other.",

I think it is pretty clear that by "have to" I meant what the policies tell us to. You don't have to not kill people, but if you do you will be sent to jail or executed. Anyway, if this isn't a real policy, then why can anyone just decide to start moving things,or delete those moved back? Plus, to return to a topic earlier in this page, why not create an impartial user to put the userboxes under? We could make one, and then put everything on a subpage there. (That is not considered a Sock Puppet account, becuase it will not be used for much, if any, editing.)

If we put this on a user subpage that will be used just for it, then I'm all for it.aido2002 19:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I am a case in point of getting caught in the "have to" of GUS.I un-userfied a couple of boxes, moving them back to template space.Even though GUS isn't policy, I was threatened by an admin that I would be blocked for being disruptive if I continued!Not wanting to fight that war - and preferring to work on an encyclopedia - I backed off, even though I still feel that a person could (and sometimes should) undo or request to be undone actions taken in the name of GUS.Since it is not policy "per GUS" actually means nothing, except that someone expects people to give in and not challenge them.However, it is often misapplied - actions taken "per GUS" are actually not consistent with GUS and there are a lot of grey areas still to be refined whether you support GUS or not.--NThurston 20:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict - this reply is to Aido's comment above) Yeah, I think we're close to understanding each other.You really want to know if it's a "real policy" or not.I'm saying that people can "just decide to start moving things" because this is a Wiki, and there aren't really that many "rules" about what you can and can't do, except for "Write a free, neutral encyclopedia".Being hung up on what's the official userbox policy is (there isn't one) is not really productive, it turns out.We're just free people, presented with a choice: take one road, and get more conflict; or, take a different road, and get less conflict.I know what my choice is, and I don't need policy to reinforce that conflict over userboxes is bad for the project.

In other words, no.GUS isn't "real policy".It is the best way to avoid conflict, or so it seems to me.Making a dummy account to host all the userboxes is a good way to induce more conflict, it turns out, because discussion has shown that people, including Jimbo, aren't ok with that.

I still don't see any harm in GUS.What's actually wrong with it? -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The only real potential of GUS is as a compromise between the "do anything you want" faction and the "Anti-UBX" faction.Other than that, there is not much value to it.Here are a few things that are wrong with it - 1) It's not ready for prime time.There are a lot of grey areas that have no consensus, and trying to follow GUS, as written, inevitably leads to conflict.Better to have consensus on a compromise before one side starts implementing it.2) Some are using GUS as a club to bully others.I mean that they do inappropriate things "per GUS," threaten people who don't want to go along with GUS with blocks, etc.I don't like that at all, especially since it is almost exclusively the anti-UBX faction that does it.Some compromise, indeed.3) The camel's nose.Sometime soon, somebody is going to go on a crusade to SD userboxes they don't like from userspace, too.This will really trigger a war.Again, some compromise, indeed. --NThurston 20:55, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Wait... what confict is GUS fixing? What was wrong with how things were? (Sorry if it is claerly said in the article, but I missed it.) aido2002 21:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

(Leaving the editor's names out.) Last december, an editor deleted quite a few userboxes that had "fair use" image issues and civility issues.There were also concerns in how the editor responded to queries about this.In resolution, it was suggested (among other things) that fair use images merely be deleted from the userboxes, rather than the userboxes themselves, and a all editors/admins were reminded that civility/wikiquette is preferred in all interactions.The userbox civility issues resulted in the WP:T1D debates, among quite a few other contentious events.In addition, User:Jimbo Wales suggested (among quite a few other suggestions) to look to the example of the de: wikipedia for a solution, hence "the german userbox solution".It's intended to deal with the userbox civility issues, but there is a small group of editors who interpret it to mean all userboxes.There have been further concerns about responses to queries, etc. In other words, just as you might read in Wikipedia talk:Userbox policy/Header, this is still ongoing. - jc37 21:47, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Jc37 has presented what I would say is close to a balanced picture of the scene.From my perspective, what's important is that Jimbo said several times, over the course of several months, more firmly each time, that userboxes indicating ideological alignments, whether political, religious, or whatever, are contrary to the spirit of the project, and that he'd like to see people move away from that kind of engagement with the Wiki.It was those statements of Jimbo's that really lit a fire under the "anti-userbox" people, and somehow the focus devolved on not using namespaces that are devoted to the encyclopedia project for hosting userboxes.This was also a reaction to the perception that userboxes were getting out of hand, and that quite a few people were signing up and collecting scads of userboxes without actually working on the encyclopedia.Since this is not a free webhost (and see WP:UP), that isn't actually ok.The way the conflict actually played out ended up having a lot to do with the various personalities involved - probably to a greater extent than would have been ideal.When WP:GUS was begun, it was the first suggestion that made concessions to both sides of the dispute, and it seemed like a good way to stop the fighting without having to muck about with proposed policies and straw polls and all that.Shortly after it was implemented, the fighting pretty much stopped.Jimbo's concern about ideological userboxes being "un-wikipedian" isn't really addressed by GUS, but that's a much deeper and more difficult issue than the relatively simple "which namespace are we in" problem, which may have just bought us some months, but that's something. -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Worst thing we can do is look to Jimbo for guidance. This creates a cycle of dependency. Jimmy Wales -- the man -- has often stated how much he would like to step away from the Jimbo-god role. We need to let him do this. John Reid 01:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's good, but on de: it does not work

The last days, some admins on the German Wikipedia deleted userboxes which are clearly POV (although they're in userspace), such as "This user likes beautiful women" without community consensus. Even the central userbox directory Benutzer:Libro/Liste von Benutzerbausteinen was deleted, and now there are several discussions about this: deletion review, proposed policy (and talk page), another proposal ... it reminds me on the situation with template namespace userboxes at en:. TZM^{Everything is notable} 17:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Those userboxes didn't get deleted because of "POV" but because they were outright sexist and demeaning to female users. --84.137.46.161 17:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

A nice example of what we have to look forward to - rouge admins determining on their own what is offensive ("inappropriate anywhere on Wikipedia") without any discussion or consensus.Some will not rest until every userbox they do not like has been hunted down, drawn, quartered and lit on fire near the Village Pump. And the whole compromise will be dead. --NThurston 20:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Umm ... what's wrong with beautiful women? And many were actually deleted with an AfD (no seperate TfD/MfD there) reason "non-encyclopedic". You can find an overview of all the discussions going on there at de:User:TZM/Babelkrieg. TZM^{Everything is notable} 19:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

One reason why I object to any page titled "German X Solution": it's not a solution. The implication is that the Germans -- notorious, depending on your bias, for efficiency -- have solved the "problem". Therefore, aren't we muddle-headed Yanks just too foolish not to follow the leader? John Reid 02:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Er. "Yanks"? :) But seriously it just looks like someone is complaining that crappy userboxes sometimes get deleted from the German Wikipedia.Well that happens here too. --Tony Sidaway 06:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I will once more, just for you, explain the origin of the name for GUS. First of all, "Userbox" is, I hope, clear to you. "Solution" because it aims to (re)solve the issues/problems/controversies that arose (see Userbox). "German" because it was first used in the German Branch of Wikipedia, as in "indicating the origin" - see "european cars", "american barbeque", etc. I am not certain where that, in you mind, it became "muddle-headed Yanks just too foolish not to follow the leader?" CharonX/talk 10:25, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Yanks, Angles, whatever. Where I was born, anyone who is not ethnically German is "English". I am ethnically German and I'm personally offended by the odor that attaches to GUS. It's a silly-putty kind of imputation; so long as you support the tactic, calling it "German" is complimentary; if you oppose it you raise ghosts. I am not the one who became upset at the juxtaposition of "Germans" and "Solutions"; nor do I consider it some sort of certificate of efficiency.

The strategy on this page did not originate on de:; they did something else -- something that was rejected by us at en:. GUS is neither German nor a solution, it is typically American in approach and at best a temporary fix. I'm sorely tempted to ressurect the failed proposal as The Real German UBX Attempted Solution.

I still think this strategy is unwise but I will drop at least 50% of my opposition if it is discussed under a neutral name.John Reid 09:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if this has been gone over before, but which particular rejected proposal are you saying the actual de: policy is closest to? -GTBacchus^(talk) 10:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Deal. I've already stated below that I don't mind any kind of sensible namechange. CharonX/talk 13:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The Merge?

I'd invite everyone to comment on the merge request here. I could've sworn we just went through one of these.... -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk) 23:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

• I apologise for missing that. However, I still don't see why these two proposals are seen as mutually exclusive. However, yes, everyone is free to discuss at the link provided above or in the merge notice on the front page. Hiding Talk 23:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

What about the Dutch solution?

In the Dutch Wikipedia, we have one template for user boxes which can be filled ad random (see nl:Sjabloon:Gebruikersbox). That's close to simply substituting them, but slightly less technical. A major advantage is, in my opinion, that you can go on putting new silly user boxes on your page without actually creating new ones and saturating the user box category. Steinbach (fka Caesarion) 16:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

This is more or less what the meta-template {{Template:Userbox}} is for.Here it is used more as a template for buliding templates as people would rather have a short reference on their page rather than a large assembly string to get the desired look. --StuffOfInterest 18:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

When you're ready to move the MLB boxes...

I don't know if it is a common practice to move all boxes of one category to a certain userspace, but when we start moving MLB boxes, move them all to my userspace, {{User:Aido2002/UBX/Sports/(insert name here)}}. This will make things easier to make links to. I already moved {{User:Aido2002/UBX/RedSox}}, so if you want to move MLB boxes, move them there. If one is already on some other userspace, then don't don't bother moving it to mine, unless want to. aido2002 19:43, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Another name change proposal

Okay, just because. How about changing the name of this page to Wikipedia:Userbox migration? Rfrisbie^talk 11:45, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I think a simple redirect would be better. --BlueSquadronRaven 15:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Would you say a little more about what you have in mind? Rfrisbie^talk 17:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a good name to me. -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Why do we need to change the name (again) exactly? I'd really prefer we didn't shuffle pages around without reason. --tjstrf 18:26, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The reasons are twofold. First, the proposed name is descriptive of the actual activity this represents. Second, it eliminates the recurring objection to negative connotations of the current name. Rfrisbie^talk 19:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with it, as long as WP:GUS and WP:TGS still redirect to it. After bypassing many boxes, and leaving see WP:GUS on it. Anyways, the new shortcut would be WP:UBM then? Maybe people will losen up if we rename it (ie, the people tying to merge/move/defeat it). -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk) 23:32, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Renames should never screw up redirects. I would expect nothing less here. Let's have at least 12 shortcuts! Two more... WP:UM, WP:UBXM? :-) Rfrisbie^talk 00:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Trying to beat out Template:Fact and Venom for the title of most gratuitous redirects? Jokes aside, I don't see how changing the name would make the people who are opposed to it less opposed. As a compromise, how about WP:German userbox migration? Has a nice abbreviation, WP:GUM. --tjstrf 00:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Hehe, WP:GUM sounds nice, but whatever you want to call it, no objection from me either way. Hell, call it "Bob" if you want to (hmmm... WP:BOB ;) - the only important thing that GUS/UM/GUM/TGS/BOB works, and it does. CharonX/talk 13:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

So, if we put up a requested move, does it trump the requested merge? So, who wants to put up the requested move. I think we have enough support here. -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk) 22:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

There's no reason a move would interfere with a merge.One could easily move a page while talking about whether or not to merge it with another page.To move, we really just need to pick a target, and there's really no reason to go through WP:RM that I can see. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

So... do we prefer Wikipedia:Userbox migration (UM, UBM, UBXM)or Wikipedia:German userbox migration (GUM)?Give everyone a couple of days to weigh in, and go for it when we see a consensus emerge.Personally, I'd go with GUM for continuity's sake. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

So, where are we with this? Are we moving, or are we staying? -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk) 22:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, there isn't precisely consensus for a title, but Wikipedia:Userbox migration seems to be a likelier candidate.Who wants to do the honors?Maybe we can use the WP:GUM shortcut anyway, if people like it so much.After all, WP:GUS and WP:TGS will end up redirecting there, and they make even less sense, except historically. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Then lets just go with a simple poll: Wikipedia:Userbox migration, yes or no? -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk) 22:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, what's the point?I just moved the page.If someone complains, we'll sort it out. -GTBacchus^(talk) 07:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Change to Wikipedia:Userbox migration

• I like this because it's descriptive and it doesn't keep the "German" continuity. Rfrisbie^talk 23:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

  Good point! -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

• Now people can stop complaining about oh, it the final german solution. -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk) 23:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
• And it will eliminate the point of attack for certain smear-tactics. UM it is. CharonX/talk 09:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
• This is the way to go.Moves toward consensus and making everyone happy.Besides, as this proceeds, it will certainly not end up being what is done on de:, as it will be modified to fit the needs of en:.Keeping the label is only a distraction and not helpful.Having a cheesy shortcut is not a good reason to keep the "G."Also, I would support the continued discussion on merging.--NThurston

Change to Wikipedia:German userbox migration

• Better abbreviation, all previous discussions decided that including German was a good thing since it credited the idea. Plus, if you're so (perhaps subconciously) racist against the Germans that you can't even seperate the adjective "German" from their actions in WWII, do we really need to care about your opinion? --tjstrf 11:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
• I agree on the point of WP:GUM being a better abbreviation than WP:UM, as well as it crediting the idea - and it just sounds better. I wouldn't be opposed to the use of Wikipedia:Userbox migration, but it seems a bit vague. CameoAppearance ^orate 11:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Page moved - fallout

Ok, I just did it.If that was a bad idea, we should find out soon enough.There are certainly lots of other details to rename and references to change.I already moved {{User GUS UBX to}} to {{User UBM UBX to}}.There are plenty of other loose ends to chase down, which I'll work on over the next few days, until they're done.Anybody who wants to help with that - cool.Anybody who wants to object to the move; please do so here, and soon. -GTBacchus^(talk) 07:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I changed the links around above to prevent panic as people search for the new box (ie, they were red before). -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk) 22:34, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Oops.Thanks. -GTBacchus^(talk) 02:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I like the new name.Nice work everyone.No fallout from me!The whole "German" thing was confusing to newcomers; how could we reasonably expect them to know what de-wiki had done, anyway?--Cyde Weys 19:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Test Case

If we are filing "test cases" anywhere, a good example would be Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Xaosflux/UBX/User religion flying spaghetti monster not really, as it contains a userfied box that was nominated for deletion, contains ethical and satirical elements, and had a snowballs chance of deletion after debate. - xaosflux ^Talk 04:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I closed that one as a keep per WP:SNOW. Maybe we should add it to precidents? No point in giving, what, one more day? -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk) 22:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:German userbox solution/Userbox

The former GUS userbox which I (and I'm sure many others) have on our userpages now would seem to need updating (and possibly moving). Volunteers? Or does everyone trust my judgement? --BlueSquadronRaven 17:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Go for it, I say.Lots of things need updating and moving just now. -GTBacchus^(talk) 17:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Done. {{Wikipedia:German userbox solution/Userbox}} has now been moved to {{Wikipedia:Userbox migration/Userbox}} and now looks like this:

This user supports the
Userbox Migration.

Hope this is acceptable to all. --BlueSquadronRaven 17:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

How ironic. Now we have to bypass the redirect. -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk) 22:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a bot request would be appropriate? -GTBacchus^(talk) 02:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)