Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/September 19, 2022

This is for discussion of how best to present Elizabeth II for its second appearance at TFA on 19 September 2022, the day of her funeral.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:07, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Image

I believe that after ITN has shown her pinkish image for several days - and will continue to do so, possibly even to 19 September - the present lead image would be a nice variation. On a funeral day, you reflect a person's life, not only the last impressions. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:58, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I'd like it to be a more informal image, if only to contrast with the article lead photo. This is a time for remembering, and the sharpest image in our minds would be of an older Queen.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:13, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

The lead image is in the article only since today, so more surprise than the other which we had for four days already on the Main page. It's exactly "remembering" which makes me want to remember back further. This may be just me, not liking the colours anyway, and especially not for a funeral day. The German Wikipedia had this one from 2019 for lead and main page. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:31, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

It's a possibility. Any others you can think of?--Wehwalt (talk) 20:34, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

No, I like the official one best. At present, both others are not even in the article (which should probably change). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:56, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

We have over a week and there will no doubt be lots of opinions.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:20, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I've always liked File:Elizabeth II greets NASA GSFC employees, May 8, 2007 edit.jpg. Imzadi 1979 → 03:30, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

If an IP may chime in, for what it's worth, I think the discussion on the talk page led to a nice consensus on File:Queen Elizabeth II 1959.jpg. Rather like it. edit: suppose File:Queen Elizabeth II 1959 (cropped).jpg is more appropriate in the blurb 172.254.96.122 (talk) 02:47, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

The other photo that I really like in addition to that one is the B&W photo used in the official announcement online. The copyright on it is owned by the Jane Brown Estate, per the Royal Collection Trust, or else I'd suggest we use that, or a cropped version, given that Her Majesty personally selected the photo to be used with the announcement of her death. Imzadi 1979 → 03:56, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I just took a look through on Commons for the last decade or so, and I found a few others to suggest:

• File:The Queen (cropped).jpg (I like this because it shows her "at work", so to speak, greeting one of the many guests she welcomed over the years)
• File:HM Queen Elizabeth II.jpg (this might be too formal)
• File:Elizabeth II at the naming of HMS Queen Elizabeth (cropped).jpg (a candid image giving us a hint of that mischievous smile that she had)
• File:Elizabeth II (1).jpg or maybe a crop of File:Queen Elizabeth II, Titanic Belfast, 2012 (5).jpg for another option that has a different color to contrast with the pink image used at ITN. (it's not bad, but she had such a range of bright colors in her wardrobe.) Imzadi 1979 → 04:24, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, - how about a rotation of six, changing every hour. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:34, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Do we have the ability to rotate images or show the reader more than one image? Manually would be a pain and add to what is likely to be a difficult day at WP:ERRORS and other venues.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:19, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

If we do have the power to change the image, I'd favor a selection of images from over her lifetime. Wehwalt (talk) 12:56, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I believe so. We've had blurbs whose images have been randomized in the past. Imzadi 1979 → 13:32, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I've used {{random item}}, with four test images. Not sure I've done it right though.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:42, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

It looks correct to me, but for it to actually rotate regularly someone will need to set up a script or bot to purge the Main Page at a set interval (e.g. every 30 minutes). In the past I believe User:Joe's Null Bot could be used to do this, I'm not sure if it's still operational, pinging @Joe Decker. Legoktm (talk) 05:38, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Iridescent helpfully pointed out the TFA of Middle Ages nine years ago, which is located here. Is the formatting there superior to what we have now? It looks like it would be more work. They also stated that the main page image would be purged more than once per second, as it would also be dependent on purging.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:47, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I think using {{random image}} directly is simpler and better. In any case, that was a good reminder that the gallery of images is important, it'll make sure the autoprotection bot protects all of the images instead of whatever happens to be displaying at the moment. Legoktm (talk) 16:01, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

The images are auto-protected now. Legoktm (talk) 00:34, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

• It should be noted that many (most?) users are not going to return to the Main Page/refresh to see more than one of the pictures, and will frown to see us use a picture of her as an infant (Infant Princess Elizabeth (2).jpg, which I have removed in an edit as being especially unreognizable), child (Queen Elizabeth II 1929.jpg), or as a young girl (Princess Elizabeth during her father's coronation.jpg) as the sole representation of her; we wouldn't ever use them in an infobox, for instance. Pictures of her as a young woman or as queen, on the other hand, are fair enough for this scheme, in my opinion. — Goszei (talk) 03:21, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  Unrelated note: the full, official coronation gown + regalia image (and its cropped version) are currently undergoing a deletion discussion on Commons (link to that discussion). If that is resolved soon, it would be nice to use it in the rotation. — Goszei (talk) 19:32, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  Could we use File:Elizabeth II & Philip after Coronation (cropped).JPG? It seems to be conceded in that discussion that it's PD.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:42, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  We could, though I hesistate because the resolution is on the low side. The composition in File:Queen Elizabeth II on her Coronation Day (cropped).jpg is just so wonderful I hope we can use it. — Goszei (talk) 20:00, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Goszei: What is the barrier to us using that photograph? Is it simply that somebody on Commons doesn't think it's validly licensed? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 23:16, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Red-tailed hawk: Yes, that's the only barrier. It is my understanding that deletion-nommed images are generally avoided for use on the Main Page, but if User:Wehwalt or another admin decides it is fine despite that, it can be added to the rotation I suppose. — Goszei (talk) 02:44, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

  And can anyone see how to handle the caption better? I think we do need to explain to the reader what we are doing, lest it be wondered why we have black and white pictures from the 1940s there.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:44, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  I think I have solved this problem with my latest edit. I used the |same=yes parameter detailed in the Random item template, which allows us to have a specific image and caption combination. — Goszei (talk) 20:04, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  Not sure that does, it doesn't clue the reader (or other editors) why a 1940s image may be encountered as the original caption did.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:26, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  User:Wehwalt, what was the basis for Special:Diff/1110931265 (changing the date from 1959 to 1958)? The caption on the image in the article was briefly changed to 1958 yesterday, but I can't find the basis for this and it has since been changed back. Date is given as 1959 in Canadian archives: [1]. — Goszei (talk) 03:24, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

• A discussion today in the #technical channel of the Wikipedia Discord indicates that what Iridescent said on their talk (that the Main Page is "purged hundreds of times a minute") is incorrect, since purging only happens on edit (null or otherwise). This null edit method is what Joe's Null Bot Task 2 did to change an element on the MP every 15 minutes, but I don't know if that would work here if our goal is showing a new image for readers on every refresh (the discussion in the Discord also indicated that more frequent purging and rebuilding is bad from a server load perspective). Javascript is another option that was discussed that would in fact accomplish this goal, but a downside is the image flashing on page load. If we want to stick with the multiple image idea, we probably need to have manual changes of the TFA template every, say, 2 hours (with 12 images, this would cover us for 24 hours). — Goszei (talk) 20:44, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not sure it's practical to have someone change the image every couple of hours. Wehwalt (talk) 20:50, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  For what it's worth, I already discussed this with another sysadmin (besides myself). Using {{random image}} and purging the main page every 30 minutes will be fine from a server perspective. It's not perfect as you note, but it'll achieve (some of) the goal of people seeing different pictures throughout the day in the limited amount of time we have to set something up. Legoktm (talk) 21:00, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  How does the main page get purged? Wehwalt (talk) 21:17, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  Legoktm did you get an answer on how often the main page would be purged? Wehwalt (talk) 13:33, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Wehwalt: I was hoping we'd hear from Joe Decker but since we haven't I set up a small script that will purge the Main Page every 30 minutes on the 19th. And I set a calendar reminder for myself to verify it's working at 00:30 UTC. Legoktm (talk) 00:33, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

  OK, good, thanks. Let's see what happens. It will be quite a day. Wehwalt (talk) 01:59, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

  Seems to be working fine! Legoktm (talk) 00:36, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

  the code for the main page has the comment "Cache expiry: 3600", so i am guessing that the cache for the main page gets refreshed at least every hour, regardless. dying (talk) 05:03, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

• Comment - I think we should remove File:Queen Elizabeth II of Great Britain(cropped).jpg from the rotation, it looks very blurry to me. The others all seem fine. I guess the rationale is that otherwise there's nothing between 1959 and 1986? But personally I think that's a lesser "evil" than having a substandard photo showing... Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 10:10, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

  It doesn't seem terrible in thumbnail. Wehwalt (talk) 13:47, 16 September 2022 (UTC)