Wikipedia talk:Teahouse/Archive 4
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License terms
Since the "Ask a question" button do not open the regular edit form, it is missing a message explaining the license terms for edits made on this page. Helder 00:54, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
License terms
Since the "Ask a question" button do not open the regular edit form, it is missing a message explaining the license terms for edits made on this page. Helder 00:54, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Editnotice
Can we create an edit notice that reminds people not to ask a question here? Ryan Vesey 20:32, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
- Sure. Perhaps something like, "This page is for discussion of Wikipedia:Teahouse. If you wish to ask a question, please do so at Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions." Alternate wording is welcome. A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 06:18, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
- There is one ^up there, but as you can tell, it's not noticeable :) I was just thinking I should make a new one after some of these questions. Good idea! heather walls (talk) 07:16, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
- I was thinking (and I assume Ryan was too) about creating a new notice to appear while you're editing, because you're more likely to notice while editing. A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 07:54, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
- You can do that at Template:Editnotices/Page/Wikipedia talk:Teahouse (sysop or account creator tools required). benzband (talk) 11:07, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
- That's a bit weird (that you can have account creator rights to do that). A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 14:21, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
- Historic reasons (mostly because of not creating a new userright, but leaving a possibility to assign any right other than the sysop right to bots to edit such notices)... ;-) mabdul 18:41, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
- That makes sense now. A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 05:33, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
- Historic reasons (mostly because of not creating a new userright, but leaving a possibility to assign any right other than the sysop right to bots to edit such notices)... ;-) mabdul 18:41, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
- That's a bit weird (that you can have account creator rights to do that). A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 14:21, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
bad CSS at Wikipedia:Teahouse/Guests/Right column
@Heatherw: the user images on the right (and depending on the screen resolution the text, too) are overlapping with the CSS box about the "Thanks for introducing yourself! Next...". Sorry, that box is totally unusable without any "close"-button... mabdul 18:39, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean, you can scroll and reach anything under the floating box. No one seems to have had trouble making and editing their intros. You aren't meant to use that page for anything else. heather walls (talk) 19:00, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
- I would like to see a close button if possible as well. I understand that it is possible to see everything anyways, but there isn't a huge reason to make it impossible to collapse. Ryan Vesey 02:48, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
- @heather try it on a 12" screen, modify the window height/width and check how much you have to scroll to read the text... mabdul 08:48, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
- (I have a 13" screen.) I've made it into a collapsible box. If you have a better idea, make it so! (If it's ugly, you will probably be reverted.) ;) heather walls (talk) 02:29, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
- @heather try it on a 12" screen, modify the window height/width and check how much you have to scroll to read the text... mabdul 08:48, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
- I would like to see a close button if possible as well. I understand that it is possible to see everything anyways, but there isn't a huge reason to make it impossible to collapse. Ryan Vesey 02:48, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Upcoming changes to the edit window (please read)
Hey all :). So, we're making some design tweaks that should simplify the edit window a heck of a lot. Unless you're on Vector (and, for some elements, not only on vector but using the enhanced editing toolbar) you shouldn't particularly notice, but I wanted to give some advance notice, distributed as widely as possible - and since this'll impact on everyone, that includes the Teahouse :). The full explanation is at the Village Pump (Technical); these should go live aroundabouts the 17th of September, so there's a while to discuss things, give feedback suggest changes for future projects if you're interested. Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 20:58, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Categories up for discussion
Category:Editors who help at the Wikipedia Teahouse, Category:Wikipedia Teahouse hosts, Category:Wikipedia users who received a Teahouse invitation, and Category:Wikipedia users who received a Teahouse invitation through AfC are all up for discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 August 26#Wikipedia teahouse participants/hosts and the section directly below it. Ryan Vesey 21:51, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Academic study
There is a study available on the web, The Rise and Decline of an Open Collaboration Community – How Wikipedia's reaction to sudden popularity is causing its decline by Aaron Halfaker, R. Stuart Geiger, Jonathan Morgan and John Riedl, put together with Foundation support, which contains a lot of potentially useful observations on some of the problems the Teahouse is designed to address. --JN466 01:05, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing that out, Jayen! And I'm glad you found it useful. I'd actually love to hear responses/reflections from any other hosts who feel like slogging through 7,000 words of academese. :) - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 02:34, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Possible vandalism
I have reverted edits done by 99.228.139.4 who deleted relevant images and their captions put by myself in article Malayali. 99.228.139.4 looks like a possible vandal
i request you to please check them and verify and warn the user.--Johnyjohny294 (talk) 12:11, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
- Done Thanks for looking out! Johny, here is some good documentation on how to deal with vandalism. Also, for future note, you might want to ask questions etc, if you need help editing Wikipedia, on the main Teahouse questions page here. As this talk page is mainly to discuss concerns, questions, etc, related specifically to the Teahouse project. Thanks!! SarahStierch (talk) 16:47, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Bot inviting already-indeffed vandalism only accounts?
Like here for instance. Theopolisme suggested that I mention it over here. Is this really what the bot is supposed to be doing, does it matter, do the settings need a tweak?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 01:31, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
- Hurk! This has been happening, though not frequently. HostBot does check for blocks, but it draws from a logging table on a slave database rather than checking the page text in this case. I thought I fixed the code yesterday, but I've obviously got to go back and bang around under the hood again. Thanks for the heads up! Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 02:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Q&A page behaving strangely for me
Recently when I click a link on another page to a specific section on the Q&A, I go to the page and it starts to jump around, ending at the wrong position on the page. For a very lengthy page, this can present a bit of a challenge. It does not happen on any other page, and it occurs in both Firefox and Chromium. I was wondering if there have been any recent changes to the page or the scripts that could be causing this problem (in the last two weeks?). Is anyone else experiencing this? hajatvrc @ 18:55, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- It could be a byproduct of the top posting on the Q&A page in that the links you are clicking are to section numbers which don't relate to the page as it stands when you arrive there. NtheP (talk) 20:09, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- Can you tell me of, or link to this other page, so I can inspect the link and make any corrections necessary. It is certainly true that linking to the section number would be problematic; as the archiving sequence does cause these numbers to change. That is of course why it is best to anchor the link; and, as an aside, why you should avoid refactoring (which could inadvertently change the anchor). This is mere speculation, perhaps useful, but I would need to inspect the actual link you are inquiring about, to give a direct answer. 76Strat String da Broke da (talk) 16:20, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- I am actually talking about any link on any other page, such as from my watchlist or one of the talkbacks we place on guests' talk pages. hajatvrc @ 17:58, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- Can you tell me of, or link to this other page, so I can inspect the link and make any corrections necessary. It is certainly true that linking to the section number would be problematic; as the archiving sequence does cause these numbers to change. That is of course why it is best to anchor the link; and, as an aside, why you should avoid refactoring (which could inadvertently change the anchor). This is mere speculation, perhaps useful, but I would need to inspect the actual link you are inquiring about, to give a direct answer. 76Strat String da Broke da (talk) 16:20, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Brief question
Hi everyone, mi username is Mcptrad and I coordinate a teaching / learning project entitled E-translating the Wikipedia. I have been invited to join you and I have certainly done so. This page has interesting and important pieces of information for project coordinators. Thank you!!! My question is ...: the project has a technical coordinator, could I invite her to join as well. I would also been interested in her keeping updated. Best --Mcptrad (talk) 15:15, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- Hi Mcptrad, and welcome! Your link is broken, but I suspect that this is your project? Please feel free to direct project participants to our Q&A board if they have any questions about editing or being an editor. We also welcome them to introduce themselves. As far as 'technical coordinator', are you saying that your project has a technical coordinator and you want her to visit Teahouse? If so, please extend our warm welcome to her, along with all your other project members :) Cheers, Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 19:42, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Outreach bookshelf
Would suggesting Outreach Bookshelf be a good way for Teachouse to help newbies? Jim.henderson (talk) 17:48, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- I think there's some great stuff there, but we try to avoid just pointing people to long lists of resources. Rationale: newcomers get plenty of linklists in welcome templates, the help portal, and in other Q&A spaces; and unfortunately not all of our on-wiki help resources are up to date, or of consistent quality/readability. Are there 1-3 individual resources on that list that you think would be particularly helpful to new editors, and/or that you feel are of stand-out quality? Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 19:46, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, the page is set up for old-timers to find handouts to aid in recruiting. Great Feeling does nothing to teach methods, but conveys the fun, while Welcome to Wikipedia supplies just enough information to start going. Jim.henderson (talk) 22:31, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Where are the "geishas"?
Who came up with this brilliant-of-cultural-insensitivity name for a WMF initiative [1] [2] [3]? Tijfo098 (talk) 16:42, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
- Context, please? Nyttend (talk) 18:31, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- The term "teahouse" is not exclusive that definition. Try looking up ochaya or teahouse to get a better sense of the intention behind the name. I'd also argue that any argument of "cultural insensitivity" is a stretch, considering our reputation and efforts toward helping and just being generally respectful and trusting of new users, regardless of their background. I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 18:42, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Sure, it's not exclusively a synonym for brothel. But it's a widely used as sexually colored pejorative from Japan (see links above) to Uzbekistan [4], including China, Thailand and Korea [5] [6] [7] [8]. Wikipedia/WMF could do well to prevent more sex-related silliness (such as [9] [10]) before some unkind journalist starts cracking jokes that Jimbo 'reinvented himself as a "madam" by opening a virtual "teahouse"' or something like that. Luckily, this WMF initiative appears to be obscure enough outside Wikipedia (for now). Whether you want to rename it or not after investing this much internal PR in your brand it's up to you guys. Sayonara. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:23, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- No need to emphasise this negative aspect. The teahouse is a far more ancient and honorable tradition in many countries. Nobody else has had a problem with it.--Charles (talk) 20:16, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- I'm baffled that you consider this widely used based on a handful of books. Maybe it is common use by historians (in a historical context), and maybe it was common use by people living in those times, but it is certainly not the contemporary dominant meaning. If it is so "pejorative" in Japan, let's say, why are there several examples of restaurants that use the exact term all over Japan? I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 21:30, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe they consider it kind of "edgy", given its undertones, and see that as a good thing. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:38, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Would an English speaking Japanese really be that offended? Would they not be aware of the different connotations of the word? --86.128.221.58 (talk) 12:14, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe they consider it kind of "edgy", given its undertones, and see that as a good thing. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:38, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Sure, it's not exclusively a synonym for brothel. But it's a widely used as sexually colored pejorative from Japan (see links above) to Uzbekistan [4], including China, Thailand and Korea [5] [6] [7] [8]. Wikipedia/WMF could do well to prevent more sex-related silliness (such as [9] [10]) before some unkind journalist starts cracking jokes that Jimbo 'reinvented himself as a "madam" by opening a virtual "teahouse"' or something like that. Luckily, this WMF initiative appears to be obscure enough outside Wikipedia (for now). Whether you want to rename it or not after investing this much internal PR in your brand it's up to you guys. Sayonara. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:23, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- An administrator suggested that I come to the Teahouse to learn about WP-ness. This is my first visit and as I was looking things over, I came upon this surprising thread. I don't see how anyone would mistake a limited, non-standard use of the word "Teahouse" as the meaning that's intended here. Even in Japan (especially in Japan), the Tea house and the Japanese tea ceremony are culturally important institutions. The Japanese tea ceremony is a form of Zen meditation with precisely prescribed steps. Those in Japan, for whom the ceremony is important and who can spare the space, have a specific room in their house dedicated to the ceremony or a separate, free-standing tea house in their garden. The significance of all this to Japanese culture is hard to overstate. I'm sure that Japanese persons and/or their descendants will be complimented by the usage.
- Besides, the Japanese, as refined as their rituals surrounding tea are, do not have a monopoly on the Tea house or the conviviality of sharing tea socially. Personally, I see this as a non-issue. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 04:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Comments on the "Welcome template discussion" thread.
[Since I'm not an administrator nor involved with Teahouse functioning, I am posting here.]
When I joined WP, I got a brief welcome message with 6 links and a photo of a plate of cookies. Those links go to the abyss that is the user help side of the site. I have had so much trouble trying to navigate my way through it, that I usually give up in frustration. I can't find information because I can't figure out what things are called in WP-speak; helper pages are very self-referential; pages with identical information can have up to three different names with three different addresses. And those acronyms!!! - to find out what a page is truly talking about, I have to jump to an acronym's separate page and then on to yet another acronym's page and so on. Trying to find an answer to a single question can take me well over an hour that I hate losing from my life.
I'm such a dumb bunny that that's probably the reason I have so much trouble navigating helper pages and you wouldn't want me messing with articles anyway. (My first big effort was a total and humiliating disaster, that I wouldn't blame you. It made me extremely shy for quite a while.) But if you do want people like me editing, then we need an incubator. I've asked several administrators about getting help and have recently found several that have helped me. One referred me here to the Teahouse. Although I have yet to completely explore here, it can't be any worse than the dreadful helper pages that those links in that welcome message led me to. Until such time as those Augean Stables are cleaned out and streamlined, if it takes a Teahouse to guide the confused and frustrated, like me, then so be it. I looked at the welcome-t automatic messages. They both look visually cluttered, though one less than the other. (That pervasive visual clutter is another WP peeve of mine. The site needs to enlist graphic artists to improved page appearance.) Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 06:12, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Edit previews
I am curious. Is it deemed better to not include the preview option when using the "Ask a question" link at /Questions? If not, should that option be incorporated into the link? 76Strat String da Broke da (talk) 06:09, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
- Hi My76Strat, we aren't ignoring you :) it's just that making changes to the Teahouse gadget requires development time and permissions that we don't have at the moment. I think it's a good idea and we should really try to make that happen if/when we get some help in this area. Thanks for the suggestion! heather walls (talk) 23:45, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- You're beyond welcome, and I appreciate your reply. I understand your constraints and respect the quality of your efforts. I'll gladly lend service here whenever I'm otherwise able. Best regards - 76Strat String da Broke da (talk) 00:36, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Removed contentious comment by IP editor from Alphonso Jackson
Check the history and revert if I was out-of-line. Even though the comments are likely true, the comments didn't belong in the Teahouse. DocTree (ʞlɐʇ · cont) Join WER 04:02, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
- Good call Doctree! SarahStierch (talk) 19:24, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
Welcome template discussion
New format
Was this discussed somewhere? The forced width is making the question forum squeeze down like extruded toothpaste from a tube into a fantastically long skinny forum that doesn't look great to me, but more importantly, makes navigation more difficult. I have no major allegiance to the prior aesthetic, though I always thought the Japanese tree logo was actually quite beautiful and that's mostly lost now that it's been shrinky-dinked, but if nothing else, can we increase the width to something approximating a normal page?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:36, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I was just looking at changing it myself, but I'm trying to ping Heather in IRC forst, to see if this is intentional or not. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 00:39, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Hi Fuhghettaboutit, Writ Keeper, the idea of a redesign has been introduced for a while though not discussed in detail. If you wouldn't mind giving it a little time to sink in, let me explain some of the rationale here. We decided to work within the standard screen widths you will find everywhere on the internet. One issue we have there is that the sidebar already takes up a portion of our space. Along with this, there is research regarding eye tracking and line length that indicates certain lengths to be better for readability. I don't have time at the moment but I can talk more about that later. I really hope that most of the changes make things easier for newcomers and not problematic for the excellent hosts whose work I deeply appreciate. Let's talk about this some more and come to a conclusion that hopefully satisfies everyone. Thanks for your patience! heather walls (talk) 01:22, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with Heather on this one (surprise, surprise), but I'm also interested in what other hosts think. Can we let this breathe for a day or two while others chime in on this thread? I'll post a link to this thread on the host lounge, to avoid forks. - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 01:29, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- NO change it back NOW (kidding). The thing is, with the sharply narrowed width, any post of even moderate length now looks like a wall of text and I think many people react to that. Also, you must admit it has a deleterious affect on navigation when the page has become twice as long and you're looking for a particular thread or post (yes, of course people can use the TOC or the page history to locate a specified thread but many don't and won't).
I just did a quick search and came across this article which says "A wall of text is deadly for an interactive experience. Intimidating. Boring. Painful to read." True, it's not actually a wall of text when the amount of text has not changed, but making the text appear over many more lines undoubtedly gives that appearance. That article also notes that "Consistency is one of the most powerful usability principles"; coming to this page with it (at least for me) a quarter the width of a regular page is a trivially but nevertheless jarring, as well as inconsistent (by the same token, for some of the same reasons, I still believe this page should act like every other page on Wikipedia and have new posts at the bottom). Best regards--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:14, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- P.S.
"Readability of text scrolled on visual display terminals was studied as a function of three different line lengths, two different character densities, and five different window heights (either 1, 2, 3, 4, or 20 lines). All three variables significantly affected reading rate, but to markedly different extents. Lines of full and two-thirds screen width were read, on average, 25% faster than lines of one-third screen width. Text appearing at a density of 80 characters per line was read 30% faster than text in a format of 40 characters per line.—Robert L. Duchnicky and Paul A. Kolers (December 1983). The Journal of the Human Factors and Ergonomics Society. 25 (6) http://hfs.sagepub.com/content/25/6/683.short.
{{cite journal}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - --Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:27, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I can't profess to know much about readability from the statistics angle; my HCI class was a long time ago (and I hated it anyway). All I can say is that my first reaction to the layout was, "Jeez, some guest must've screwed something up with the formatting." It looks wrong; not in the "horrible ugly evil" sense, but in the "broken" sense. Maybe it's just me (and I don't mean to be cramping your style!), and it's not like the new layout would make me contribute any less, but every time I see it, I get that tiny cringe, as if someone broke something. :/ Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 02:37, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- NO change it back NOW (kidding). The thing is, with the sharply narrowed width, any post of even moderate length now looks like a wall of text and I think many people react to that. Also, you must admit it has a deleterious affect on navigation when the page has become twice as long and you're looking for a particular thread or post (yes, of course people can use the TOC or the page history to locate a specified thread but many don't and won't).
- I agree with Heather on this one (surprise, surprise), but I'm also interested in what other hosts think. Can we let this breathe for a day or two while others chime in on this thread? I'll post a link to this thread on the host lounge, to avoid forks. - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 01:29, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Hi Fuhghettaboutit, Writ Keeper, the idea of a redesign has been introduced for a while though not discussed in detail. If you wouldn't mind giving it a little time to sink in, let me explain some of the rationale here. We decided to work within the standard screen widths you will find everywhere on the internet. One issue we have there is that the sidebar already takes up a portion of our space. Along with this, there is research regarding eye tracking and line length that indicates certain lengths to be better for readability. I don't have time at the moment but I can talk more about that later. I really hope that most of the changes make things easier for newcomers and not problematic for the excellent hosts whose work I deeply appreciate. Let's talk about this some more and come to a conclusion that hopefully satisfies everyone. Thanks for your patience! heather walls (talk) 01:22, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- New layout = EPIC FAIL. Plzfixkthxbye. --Jayron32 03:09, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I don't even know where to address this aside, but WTF has happened to the edit view across the pedia? The links to wikicode are gone, the find and replace option, gone. It's too much in one day. 76Strat String da Broke da (talk) 03:44, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- WP:VPT awaits your complaints on that one. --Jayron32 03:50, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Whilst the colours are very nice, the wasted space on the new layout is not. If you want a certain line length for readability, then that's not a problem, but why on earth are you centring it, with massive borders? align it to one side, and put host profiles down the other, or do two columns of questions and answers... or something. This currently gives the impression of squeezing the text for no reason, and looks especially bad on wide screens, where you can fit 3 times the information on. WormTT(talk) 08:12, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Addendum, it appears this looks very nice in 1024x768, but according to W3Schools that only caters for 13% of computers these days, with 85% using higher (figures here), the majority use much more width (figures for higher resolution) WormTT(talk) 08:17, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- When I started with HTML many years ago there was this concept of "standard screen widths" all over the internet. As Worm has pointed out, the range on resolutions is now too large for this to be even remotely practical. Sure, when you go to an article by The Guardian, there is a narrow width to which the actual text of the article is constrained. But this does not make it a good idea. I understand that there is research connecting line length with readability. But if a viewer wants to make the lines a certain length, they just re-size their browser window. Why assume that we know what people want? The rest of Wikipedia does not have specific widths, so a viewer who has a special preference will be used to re-sizing their window anyway. hajatvrc @ 08:49, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I very much agree. A standard is something that is written down somewhere so that you can refer to it. Where is the document laying out "standard screen widths"? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 09:02, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Years ago, for example, there was a widely held belief that a web page should be 600 pixels in width. This was when 800x600 was what pretty much everyone had, so it gave 200 pixels for window borders, margins, and sometimes advertisements. But a pixel was much bigger back then, as an 800x600 monitor could be 17" or more. Times have changed. hajatvrc @ 09:26, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- A standard is something that is written down somewhere so that you can refer to it. Where is the document that specified that web pages should be 600 pixels in width? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:11, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Years ago, for example, there was a widely held belief that a web page should be 600 pixels in width. This was when 800x600 was what pretty much everyone had, so it gave 200 pixels for window borders, margins, and sometimes advertisements. But a pixel was much bigger back then, as an 800x600 monitor could be 17" or more. Times have changed. hajatvrc @ 09:26, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I very much agree. A standard is something that is written down somewhere so that you can refer to it. Where is the document laying out "standard screen widths"? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 09:02, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I must be getting terribly sad but I've got the Teahouse open in front of me on three different browsers, Firefox 15.0.1, IE7 and Safari (iOS6). In Firefox and Safari it looks fine to me but in IE the first text entries "Welcome to the Teahouse" & "Hosts are here to help" appear to have slipped half a line so they straddle the border between the areas with dark grey and light grey backgrounds. As the text is fairly light itself the upshot is that half the text merges into the background and is lost to sight. NtheP (talk) 09:09, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- The inherent conservatism of the average Wikipedia editor aside, I can't see the benefits from this change. As previous commentators have noted, the "squeezed" text makes the Q&A board looked cramped and unappealing; it's hard to scan with the eye and the line length is too short for easy reading in my browser window (I'm running Firefox).
- You might
- just as well
- restrict each
- line to
- two or three
- words and have
- done with it.
- In addition, it took me about six or seven seconds - a long time in our instant-data world - to locate the important link to the Q&A board; since that's the principal function of the Teahouse, we don't want it getting lost. Finally, from a purely aesthetic point of view, I liked the old layout; it had a graceful ma that complimented the (now smallified and lost) Teahouse icon and general vibe of the place. This new version looks like a Wordpress blog.
- I'm a new host (only signed up yesterday), so my comments probably carry less weight than those of folk who've been serving tea for a while. Still, as someone who's done my share of graphic design work in the past, I have to say I think this is a step in the wrong direction. Yunshui 雲水 09:37, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps the "Get answers" link should not be in the partitioned space that is a different color. I tend to consider fields in a web page that are a lighter color from the main color as not as important, so I would not search for the most important link on the page in that pale-gray field with other stuff in it.
- I happened to know from experience that the link was followed by that arrow graphic so I found it a bit easier than, I suspect, a newer visitor would. hajatvrc @ 10:15, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- It's worth noting that browser window sizes can rarely be adjusted on tablets. -- Trevj (talk) 11:52, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- That is a valid point, though I have never used a tablet so I cannot judge whether their set width produces a good line length or not. Do you, or does anyone else, have an insight about this width that might affect the width of the Q&A page? hajatvrc @ 15:30, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- It's worth noting that browser window sizes can rarely be adjusted on tablets. -- Trevj (talk) 11:52, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- In addition to the comments about the narrowness—I think any comments I have are redundant—I dislike the new coloring scheme; the dark gray and bright blue don't seem as natural and calming as the light blues and browns we had before. I also dislike the fact that there is an empty light gray box next to the picture of the host. I mean, put something there, even if it is just their username! It looks off! Brambleberry of RiverClanmeow 15:50, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Seriously, the new redesign, even without the width problems, looks amateurish and unappealing. I'm not sure there was anything at all wrong with the old layout and color scheme. It's like whoever did this went to the Facebook school of "cram through a random cosmetic change which has no net benefit, but annoys users nonetheless". If we're going to change the layout, there could at least be some measurable betterment. The links are harder to follow from Wikipedia:Teahouse, the text is illegible in some places because it runs white-on-white, it's just inconceivably hard to use. Seriously, I don't see why there was a need to change anything, the changes don't improve the mission of the Teahouse, and I'm frankly quite miffed that this is so messed up. I wouldn't object to changes if they worked, even if the changes didn't make anything better, but these changes are the exact opposite of what an improvement is supposed to be. The Teahouse is worse in every conceivable way. Please bring back the old layout, at least temporarily, until you get a properly tested and working one to implement. Thanks. --Jayron32 21:42, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Agree with Jayron. This is horrid. Please bring back the old teahouse.Charles (talk) 22:43, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Reply My heart is in this. My heart was in the first Teahouse I designed and we all made together, and now in trying to improve it.
I'm on your side. We are on the same side. The side of making Wikipedia better, the side of having a friendly place where new editors learn how to be Wikipedians.
I am disappointed in what has happened, not because I don't want to hear your opinion or work together, but because of how everything appears to be framed. I apologize that we didn't have time to create a more open process in the redesign, but at the same time this is the process. I introduced to you the idea that changes were going to occur and asked for your responses. I suppose I expected reactions and dialogue instead of what feels like an attack.
Here we are now. My preference would be to stop seeing “other” in this conversation.
I care about your opinion and your happiness, I also care about what is best for the Teahouse and every new guest, guests that already tend to be having a tough time navigating Wikipedia. It was necessary to tighten up the layout a little, and pull the main navigation together. I introduced the changes in this post...
- We've been working on a Teahouse redesign lately and it is almost ready to go! The reorganization is intended to to make the Teahouse experience even more simple and clear to new Wikipedians, based on feedback we've gotten from guests so far. The overall functionality/features/etc should not be impacted, but we want new guests to be able to find you and ask you questions as quickly and easily as possible.
- What is changing:
- We've removed some of the overly-explanatory text because the Teahouse has grown and created it's own context with a long list of experienced hosts and a fantastic archive of questions to show guests what the point is.
- The landing page will have four obvious sections and fewer links to reduce confusion with the interaction. We want to welcome newcomers as well as introduce the 3 areas of the Teahouse with three major links
Some of you have brought up specific details that neither myself nor people I've requested help from have been able to reproduce. I've looked at everything in many browsers. If you have screenshots of specific issues (like white on white text) I would love to see them and see how they might be addressed. The links are meant to be simplified and more obvious (now light blue= link). I am curious what might have made links more obvious to you before or had they just become familiar? This design is easier to navigate than the last based on a number of interaction practices. Many things we'd love to do are just not technically possible.
The truth is that I was sad about aspects of the redesign, too. I'm nostalgic about the place we all built together. At the same time, I really believe that change has the potential to make the Teahouse better. To create a strong, clear message, and show the humanity and community in Wikipedia.
Feelings aside, let's address some of your concerns. Every discussion about readability will tell you that shorter line length is easier for humans to read, despite this I've already increased the width of the question area. I am looking at changing the color scheme back, and bringing back the other tree logo. There are a few things that aren't going to be changed, for instance the “gray box next to the host picture” is simply an artifact of the random nature of the images that people use to express themselves. I have no control over the color or proportion so I have to respond to that by making space for it even though not every image is going to use the same amount of space.
I appreciate you giving me the time and space to test the response of new users to some of the changes I've made. I hope that you are still interested and willing to work on this together. Thanks for your feedback and I'm hoping to hear more productive Teahouse-worthy feedback soon!
Thank you most of all for your amazing participation and support in this project which has had real and significant success in our corner of Wikipedia. heather walls (talk) 23:58, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- I do have a question about the removal of the old explanatory text atop the "Ask a question" button on the Q&A. I'm sure we all have seen numerous occasions where the guest does not know that they can reply to the discussion by clicking [edit] and typing below the last post (and that they are welcome to do so). I was under the impression that this was the reason someone had added that information. People who have the "TeahouseRespond" script enabled can use that to reply, but having that as a standard preference on Wikipedia would exclude those who do not have Javascript functionality. I do respect the need to get rid of any unnecessary clutter, but can't we find some way of guiding them in this respect? hajatvrc @ 20:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
- Related discussion here. I think putting necessary explanatory text, prompts and reminders in the Teahouse gadget (in the border area, or as default text in the textarea) is a good idea. Tho even here we should try to keep it as lean as we can. I also support including Equazcion's response gadget in the Teahouse gadget itself. This would require someone with some Javascript-fu to update the code, and a few of us to a) turn off our Teahouse gadget in our preferences, b) install the new combined gadget as a userscript and c) test to make sure everything's working okay. Then, I can ping Werdna and ask him to review the code and update the gadget. Any takers?
- Very few of our guests (around 11%) responded to existing discussions, even when we told them they could do so, so a textual prompt alone is never going to get us where we want to go, in terms of facilitating peer support. It would be interesting to implement 'Respond to this discussion' as default, and then see if that number increases. I'll run the numbers if some writes the code! Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 00:43, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- 11% sounds like a very large number, especially considering the tiny numbers that responded to similar prompts in experiments like AFT. (Ironholds has the data on that if you need it!)
- Agreed that 11% is an impressive start, esp. since newcomers are often nervous about making missteps and many aren't 100% with this whole 'markup' deal. But I think we can do better. And I'm always eager for a chance to show up IronHolds. :P Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 03:55, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Heather, a question for you. If consensus amongst hosts is that the original teahouse you designed is the best way, and the subsequent designs are not the best way, where do we go from there? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:21, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- 11% sounds like a very large number, especially considering the tiny numbers that responded to similar prompts in experiments like AFT. (Ironholds has the data on that if you need it!)
- I think the goal is to have a Teahouse that we all love (hosts and guests)! Heather probably has a couple more tricks up her sleeve to iterate on ( the colors etc) in this version based on everyone's feedback here. Why don't we give it a few more days to discuss, tweak, and soak up the new design before deciding together where we should go from here? It would be good to get feedback from guests too, and see if anything has changed in their experience with the redesign -- after all, this place is all about being geared to help new editors, right? And oh man, I still would really love to have Equazcion's "respond to this discussion" feature added for everyone...lets try to see what we can do about that. Siko (talk) 08:50, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- One technical thing I have noticed. On the Teahouse page the host's name is given under the picture. On the Q page it isn't. Deliberate or accident? NtheP (talk) 16:33, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think the goal is to have a Teahouse that we all love (hosts and guests)! Heather probably has a couple more tricks up her sleeve to iterate on ( the colors etc) in this version based on everyone's feedback here. Why don't we give it a few more days to discuss, tweak, and soak up the new design before deciding together where we should go from here? It would be good to get feedback from guests too, and see if anything has changed in their experience with the redesign -- after all, this place is all about being geared to help new editors, right? And oh man, I still would really love to have Equazcion's "respond to this discussion" feature added for everyone...lets try to see what we can do about that. Siko (talk) 08:50, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
That's intentional, but it's only a placeholder. Heather and I are working on getting host profile picture rotation going on all the pages. As you probably know, the main page pulls a template randomly from this list, which I just made compatible with the new layout. Unfortunately, the markup on /Questions /Guests and /Hosts is subtly different from the markup on the main page, making it a little more difficult. So I've put GorillaWarfare's smiling face on all of them, as a placeholder 'til I can get it working like it should. :) Probably by the end of the week? He said optimistically... Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 03:50, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- The background is too dark in the new layout. It's determined by background-color:#F4F3F0; in {{TH question page}}. Compare before and after. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:33, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- Or do you think the font isn't dark enough? (Yes, it has changed...but...) SarahStierch (talk) 22:40, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- A darker font would also help but I mostly think the background should be lighter. The current contrast passes standards but still seems unnecessarily low when there is no apparent reason to not make it higher. I don't recall Wikipedia pages where the background of the main text area is this dark. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:18, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- Or do you think the font isn't dark enough? (Yes, it has changed...but...) SarahStierch (talk) 22:40, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
Since no one else sees what I am seeing, I've uploaded some clips of the screens I see. Again, I can't imagine that of all of the computers in the entire world, mine is so unique as that no one else expriences this at all.
My set up is IE 9.0.10 on a Windows 7 Premium machine. My display is a COMPAQ FB5315 4:3 ratio monitor (15 inch I believe) running at 1024x768 and 32 bit color. I hope that helps isolate and fix the problems. --Jayron32 23:03, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oh! And thanks for the screenshots. heather walls (talk) 01:32, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Jayron, the title bars are not rendering properly on your machine. For me (Firefox in Linux), the text is aligned on the bar and there is no white-on-white. But I remember accessing the Teahouse from my school's computer (Windows 7 with Firefox) and it rendered properly as well. It might just be IE. I would suggest not using IE at all for security reasons (This is just one example from a week ago; security holes in IE and Safari are much discussed in the tech world). hajatvrc @ 23:39, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, I know. I've gotten the speech. I've considered Chrome, and use it a bit for stuff that IE just won't do. It's one of those "devil you know" things. Everyone tells me IE is a piece of shit, for any number of reasons. Maybe you'll convince me soon. I just havfta figure out how to move all of my favorites over. --Jayron32 03:13, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- I just checked my wife's laptop. Same exact set up (same windows version, same IE version) except a 17-inch 16:9 aspect ratio monitor, and it looks perfect. I'm gonna check Chrome on this machine now. --Jayron32 03:16, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- OK. Checked with Chrome on my desktop machine (my regular computer), and it looks perfect too. The only set up that is having problems is the specific browser/monitor combination I note above. Not sure why. I'm switching to Chrome I think full time (this has convinced me), but you should be aware of the problem nonetheless, if for no other reason than someone else may try to access the page with that set up and may have the same problems. No idea if it can be fixed, but at least you have the full info. --Jayron32 03:20, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- I just checked my wife's laptop. Same exact set up (same windows version, same IE version) except a 17-inch 16:9 aspect ratio monitor, and it looks perfect. I'm gonna check Chrome on this machine now. --Jayron32 03:16, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, I know. I've gotten the speech. I've considered Chrome, and use it a bit for stuff that IE just won't do. It's one of those "devil you know" things. Everyone tells me IE is a piece of shit, for any number of reasons. Maybe you'll convince me soon. I just havfta figure out how to move all of my favorites over. --Jayron32 03:13, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Hi all, it seems like IE doesn't always play well with position:relative... or something. I am curious now if you saw the original TH the same way everyone else does. :) Either way I will be working on changing the color scheme back to the original which, if I am lucky, will solve several problems at once. Or create more. We'll see! heather walls (talk) 00:51, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
I heard you liked new formats so I put a new format... nvm. Hey all! So here it is. Fire away. I've checked this in many browser configurations and it works in all but the most ancient but that doesn't appear to guarantee anything based on past experiences. Please let me know of any issues you run across or further suggestions you have. Thanks for your continuing patience, heather walls (talk) 19:56, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- The screenshot Jayron posted regarding how the Teahouse main launching page looks is what I reported (badly in words) about viewing it in IE7 (works computer). Yes I'm sure we've all heard the shout "Get off IE" many times and that it's buggy, security weak etc but the fact is that one in three of the worlds browsers is IE [11] so we are, for the time being, stuck with it, therefore we ought to make attempts for pages to render correctly in it. NtheP (talk) 20:05, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- That's...easier said than done. Usually to quite a large degree. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:08, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Tell me about it - but the argument made that it's rubbish isn't a valid one not to try. NtheP (talk) 20:17, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, can't disagree with that (I've expressed similar thoughts to Jayron before, as he pseudo-hinted). Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:19, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Based on my current experiments, sadly IE7 + current Teahouse is not ideal, I have no idea what sort of magic prevented that happening in the previous design (if it did, still not sure about that). History of Internet Explorer says that IE7 came out in 2006, IE8 in 2009. IE8 seems to behave reasonably. heather walls (talk) 20:41, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, can't disagree with that (I've expressed similar thoughts to Jayron before, as he pseudo-hinted). Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:19, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Tell me about it - but the argument made that it's rubbish isn't a valid one not to try. NtheP (talk) 20:17, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- That's...easier said than done. Usually to quite a large degree. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:08, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for changing the color scheme back; I thought the black and turquoise was a bit hostile. My main other dislike with the new format is that whenever it shows a host photo, there's gray space to the right of the photo because the photo is too narrow to fill the gray space. Brambleberry of RiverClanmeow 20:56, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- Hi Brambleberry! I think, and Heather will correct me if I'm wrong, it has to be that way because all of our host photos are different shapes, and we can't magically make Wikipedia code conform to those shapes as the photos change. Hence the empty space. SarahStierch (talk) 21:55, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
WAIT WAIT...but did we check it on Netscape? Or AOL 2.0? .... just kidding :) Great work Heather, and thanks everyone for turning criticism into constructive criticism that she was able to take into consideration with care. SarahStierch (talk) 21:53, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- Actually I did check it on Netscape 4 :-) (same works PC that has IE7) let's just say you don't want to know about the discrepancies. NtheP (talk) 22:16, 4 October 2012 (UTC)