Wikipedia talk:Talk page guidelines/Archive 16

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Are new editors forbidden to discuss contentious topics?

This talk page shows a warning to editors:

You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)

You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

These restrictions are not mentioned in the talk page guidelines. According to the rules described here, are new editors strictly forbidden to discuss this topic on any talk page, except when making edit requests? Jarble (talk) 19:50, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

This is something different from what this guideline says or doesn't say about new editors in general. The restriction you link to was established by ArbCom, and is referring to the need to be extended confirmed in that specific topic area. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

I suppose it depends on how you define a “new” editor. I’m an old fart by WP standards, and tend to think of people who joined the project five years ago as still being “new”… but others may define it differently.

The requirement for achieving “extended confirmed” status is creating a login, waiting 30 days and making 500 edits (to articles about non-contentious topics)… not a difficult thing for a “new” editor to achieve, no matter how you define “new”. Once an editor DOES achieve extended confirmed status they can work on contentious topics - regardless of whether you consider them “new” or not. Blueboar (talk) 16:58, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

No. The restriction applies only to making edits to the article. The warning explicitly states except for making edit requests. Any newcomers can edit the article and discuss edits this way. It's basically an alternative to WP:Pending changes. Paradoctor (talk) 20:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

"Making edit requests" sounds a lot more limited than entering into discussions about what should appear in the article (the usual purpose of talk pages). If the intent is to allow non-extended-confirmed editors to engage on talk pages in the normal way, but just not to edit on the topic in article space, then I would submit that the warning is misworded.

On the other hand, if then intent is to bar them from talk-page discussions with the narrow exception of requesting specific edits, then I think that's pretty extraordinary. I could see why you might want to do that in specific cases, if the alternative is having the talk pages effectively DDoSed by IP spam, but it is a very harsh and unusual remedy and ought to have a high bar. --Trovatore (talk) 21:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I see nothing keeping them from making their case when a request is not approved right away. The restriction is intended to head off disruption, not to prevent constructive discussion. Paradoctor (talk) 21:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

That seems like a gray area based on the wording, but even if that is so, your first sentence is still very very far from being able to participate normally in talk-page discussions. --Trovatore (talk) 23:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Of course. That is the whole point. Paradoctor (talk) 23:12, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

It's not a grey area. They can make an edit request. If it is not approved they are not permitted to try an establish consensus for the edit. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:13, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

If you're telling me they are not allowed to, say, point to guidelines that support the proposed edit, or add sources justifying the edit, then the talk page warning needs to clarify that. Paradoctor (talk) 23:19, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

As I say, even if they can do that, that is still very very far from normal talk-page interaction. --Trovatore (talk) 23:24, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that "not permitted... establish consensus" meant that they cannot point to guidelines or sources as part of the edit request. They certainly can do those things, so long as it is part of the edit request. The point is that they are not permitted to go on and participate in further discussions. And that's based upon a lot of experience with chronic disruption within the specific topic area. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:55, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I think I located the bone of confusion, courtesy of BilledMammal: edit requests and the subsequent discussion of their edit requests. It's still not clear to me whether that is intended to be excluded or not. Paradoctor (talk) 00:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of what editors here may prefer, this is something that ArbCom, and the community on ArbCom pages, have discussed extensively. Example. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:01, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Um, your example is about AfD, not articles. Or did I miss something here? Paradoctor (talk) 23:15, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

You didn't miss anything. I was talking about the ArbCom policy in general, and the nature of that discussion was to reaffirm the ECR restriction, strict as it may be. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:18, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion was about the applicability of ECR to AfD. It said nothing about article talk. Paradoctor (talk) 23:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I was talking about the ArbCom policy in general, and the nature of that discussion was to reaffirm the ECR restriction, strict as it may be. It was an example. There have been multiple other discussions, and I see no reason for me to list all of them here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:39, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Here's the discussion that resulted in the tightening of ECR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:46, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, that's a better example. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:50, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

And here's the ArbCom page about the case. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)