Wikipedia talk:Schools/Archive 8
Latest comment: 17 years ago by Seraphimblade in topic Why WP:Schools should create an exception to WP:Notability
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Why WP:Schools should create an exception to WP:Notability
Consider schools as compared to restaurants. Are not schools more likely to be more important to their communities than restaurants? Yet schools are far less likely that restaurants to have independent sources. I have multiple books containing a review, including commentary, on every restaurant in my city. These books are cheap, nearly given away. School reviews, in book form, which I have seen, do exist, but are expensive and are focused on the best high schools, and focus on output measures desired by competitive parents. The way WP:N is written, it encourages a systematic bias towards fine restaurants and elitist schools. This bias is stronger than the bias on background of new contributors (I conjecture), and this is the cause of the dispute here at WP:Schools. The solution is to write policies that are gentler on subjects important to communities, gentler than policies are by default on things regularly called cruft. SmokeyJoe 03:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I think the restaurant analogy is flawed. A review of a restaurant, even one that includes commentary, is trivial and does not pass muster under WP:N. If a restaurant is notable enough to have a book written about it, it goes in. If schools are, as you suggest, so very important to their communities, there should be plenty of non-trivial, verifiable sources from which to build a WP article. Butseriouslyfolks 03:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- That "trivial" word again. It is poorly defined, and amounts to "what I don't like". It is also offensive. Now you seem to be suggesting that "non-trivial" means "at least a whole book". You also seem to fail to take my point that a school can be very important (and not just as a service/utility), but due to being relatively long-lived and constant, it doesn't tend to attract a lot of third party commentary. SmokeyJoe 04:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- You may not like the term "trivial", but it's an important part of the official Wikipedia guidelines. As I noted above, anything can be made absurd if it is construed narrowly enough. The statement "a whole book equals notability" does 'not' imply that "the lack of a whole book equals non-notability". But you have to give me that the complete absence of 'any' non-trivial verifiable sources 'does' indicate a lack of notability. Butseriouslyfolks 04:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- That "trivial" word again. It is poorly defined, and amounts to "what I don't like". It is also offensive. Now you seem to be suggesting that "non-trivial" means "at least a whole book". You also seem to fail to take my point that a school can be very important (and not just as a service/utility), but due to being relatively long-lived and constant, it doesn't tend to attract a lot of third party commentary. SmokeyJoe 04:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Schools are important to their communities. So are garbage dumps, gas mains, courthouses, city council members, police stations, and grocery stores. That doesn't mean we need an article on every one of those things. Just like any of those, we should have an article on a school if and only if it establishes notability like anything else. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 03:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with your first three sentences. That's why WP:Schools should remain concerned about schools, and it should not have any relevance to garbage dumps, gas mains, courthouses, city council members, police stations, and grocery stores. My point, which I invite you to address, is that WP:N, while well-meaning, creates a systematic bias if exceptions are allowed for. SmokeyJoe 04:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- My point is-if your only rationale is "We should create an exception due to importance to the community", my question is "Alright, why only an exception for one institution of importance to a community, and not all these others?" That question stands. Where we do create a systemic bias is if we allow editors to determine what's to be written about. What WP:N assures is that others, specifically writers and editors of reliable secondary source material, decide what's important enough to cover. We simply source and make encyclopedia articles from their coverage. Whether we like it or not, WP:N prevents editorial bias. Now, of course, if you think a newspaper, magazine, or anything else should be covering a subject more, feel free to contact that publication and tell them that's what you want to read about! But until they decide to cover it, it's inappropriate for us to cover it. We just reflect the real world, we don't seek to correct it. If real-world secondary sources rarely cover schools, neither do we. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 04:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Specifically, the words "multiple" and "non-trivial" are the weak points coming from WP:N. There are plenty of secondary sources covering schools (reports of all kinds), but they are susceptible to being called "trivial". SmokeyJoe 04:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- They are weak points to you only because they do not support your position. To me, they are critical. Common sense tells me there is no reason for a world-wide encyclopedia to cover a non-descript high school in Indiana. (No offense to any Hoosiers out there.) What are you going to say about it other than what someone could find in a school report that is by WP definitions "trivial"? Butseriouslyfolks 04:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- An overwhelming percentage of schools, certainly at the secondary level, do have extensive coverage of events and issues related to specific schools. Schools in all locations win awards and championships that are covered in the press. Almost all of this coverage constitute reliable and verifiable sources. Find two of these real-world sources, and you've got "multiple" covered, satisfying any objective notability requirements. Then let the anti-school crowd come up with excuses to justify that the sources are too "trivial" for their delicate sensitivities. Common sense tells me that a significant percentage of high schools can have articles that meet the arbitrary standards of even the most pompous and arrogant deletionists. Even schools in Indiana. Alansohn 04:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Good. Then we don't need an exception to WP:N, we just need people who are motivated enough to find and cite the sources when they create an article about a school, and there won't be any issue. Of course, if someone creates an article without any of these sources, they are running afoul of a key WP policy: Only add information based on reliable sources. Butseriouslyfolks 05:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Are you claiming that every one of these school articles you vote to delete are based exclusively on original research in violation of Wikipedia policy? Alansohn 05:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- He's not. But since you mention it, a large number of school articles are, in fact. Or, at least, they do not state their sources, which amounts to the same thing. Shimeru 05:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- First of all, I don't think I have voted in more than a dozen AfDs since I've been editing here. So "every one of these school articles I vote to delete" would be maybe two or three of them. When I vote on an AfD, I state my reasons in that forum. I'd have to review my contrib history to see, but I would think that most of my votes on school articles were based on WP:N, not on WP:NOR. That being said, I have seen a lot of school articles which are completely bereft of citations and sources. Those obviously violate WP:V. Butseriouslyfolks 05:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Are you claiming that every one of these school articles you vote to delete are based exclusively on original research in violation of Wikipedia policy? Alansohn 05:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- An overwhelming percentage of schools, certainly at the secondary level, do have extensive coverage of events and issues related to specific schools. Schools in all locations win awards and championships that are covered in the press. Almost all of this coverage constitute reliable and verifiable sources. Find two of these real-world sources, and you've got "multiple" covered, satisfying any objective notability requirements. Then let the anti-school crowd come up with excuses to justify that the sources are too "trivial" for their delicate sensitivities. Common sense tells me that a significant percentage of high schools can have articles that meet the arbitrary standards of even the most pompous and arrogant deletionists. Even schools in Indiana. Alansohn 04:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- They are weak points to you only because they do not support your position. To me, they are critical. Common sense tells me there is no reason for a world-wide encyclopedia to cover a non-descript high school in Indiana. (No offense to any Hoosiers out there.) What are you going to say about it other than what someone could find in a school report that is by WP definitions "trivial"? Butseriouslyfolks 04:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- My point is-if your only rationale is "We should create an exception due to importance to the community", my question is "Alright, why only an exception for one institution of importance to a community, and not all these others?" That question stands. Where we do create a systemic bias is if we allow editors to determine what's to be written about. What WP:N assures is that others, specifically writers and editors of reliable secondary source material, decide what's important enough to cover. We simply source and make encyclopedia articles from their coverage. Whether we like it or not, WP:N prevents editorial bias. Now, of course, if you think a newspaper, magazine, or anything else should be covering a subject more, feel free to contact that publication and tell them that's what you want to read about! But until they decide to cover it, it's inappropriate for us to cover it. We just reflect the real world, we don't seek to correct it. If real-world secondary sources rarely cover schools, neither do we. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 04:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with your first three sentences. That's why WP:Schools should remain concerned about schools, and it should not have any relevance to garbage dumps, gas mains, courthouses, city council members, police stations, and grocery stores. My point, which I invite you to address, is that WP:N, while well-meaning, creates a systematic bias if exceptions are allowed for. SmokeyJoe 04:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
(indent reset) Basically, if and only if there's enough source material cited in an article to write more than a stub someday (even if the article's currently a stub), I will argue to keep it. If I think there's a very good chance I can find such sources, I'll look. If I can, I'll cite them. But for most schools that I've seen, only a primary source is cited (usually the school's website), and that's good for nothing beyond a directory stub-ever. WP:V is pretty unambiguous-if you want to include information, it is your responsibility to find and cite sources. It is not the responsibility of the person who may wish to remove the information to do your work for you first. If you don't want a school article to be challenged and possibly deleted, find sources that pass muster before ever moving the article into mainspace. (It can always be put in userspace before you find sources, userspace article drafts are not required to be sourced.) If you want to create the article, that's your job. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 06:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- This is from WP:V, which must be ambiguous if you can read it as above, while I read it as it seems to be written:
- Self-published and dubious sources in articles about themselves
- Material from self-published sources, and published sources of dubious reliability, may be used as sources in articles about the author(s) of the material, so long as:
- it is relevant to their notability;
- it is not contentious;
- it is not unduly self-serving;
- it does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject;
- there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it.
- Most school websites I've looked at are poor at doing what they probably should be doing--providing useful information to parents and students--but many have lots of information needed to write a good article. Even the official sites are doubtful in spots, when the language gets too self-congratulatory, but they may have a welth of information that a reasonable reader can accept at face value, since they are patently not self-serving and since they are put out for public review by public officials. I think that qualitative text comparing the school to others or rating its own importance should be ignored, mostly, while most of the history and statistics are reliable.--Hjal 07:07, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- In response to Seraphimblade: The non-existance of references is NOT the same thing as the non-existance of sources. A quick perusal of articles turns up many articles that, while currently unreferenced, are also patently notable if for the plainly obvious fact that many reliable sources DO exist on the subject. A random search turns up an unreferenced article on convection, a concept exhaustively covered in nearly every physics, chemistry, materials science, thermodynamics, etc. etc. textbook in existance. Poorly written articles is NOT a valid reason for deletion. The arguement made here is that schools of the secondary level (high schools) and higher are so likely to receive copious coverage in reliable sources that they should pass notablity tests with flying colors. I may or may not disagree with this arguement myself, but one should not discount an unreferenced, but keepable, article with an unreferencable article. Still, if any current article on a school is indepenantly referencable, it already passes the Primary Notability Criterion and this guideline is unneccessary. If any current article on a school cannot be referenced (regardless of whether it currently is) then it should be deleted as it cannot contain any verifiable encyclopedic knowledge. However, one cannot claim that an unreferenced article is the same as an unreferencable one. --Jayron32 07:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Here's that pointless -ed/-able comparison again. For the purposes of Wikipedia, the distinction between the two is meaningless. If an article has no sources (and is not on such a widely-understood concept such as convection), then it is de facto unverifiable in its current state. That's simple logic - if there are no sources, it is impossible to verify the article content. If an article can indeed be verified (there is no such thing as a "verifiable subject", we verify articles), people who claim such when challenged should put their money where their mouth is (as they are required to do) and do so. Chris cheese whine 10:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- In response to Seraphimblade: The non-existance of references is NOT the same thing as the non-existance of sources. A quick perusal of articles turns up many articles that, while currently unreferenced, are also patently notable if for the plainly obvious fact that many reliable sources DO exist on the subject. A random search turns up an unreferenced article on convection, a concept exhaustively covered in nearly every physics, chemistry, materials science, thermodynamics, etc. etc. textbook in existance. Poorly written articles is NOT a valid reason for deletion. The arguement made here is that schools of the secondary level (high schools) and higher are so likely to receive copious coverage in reliable sources that they should pass notablity tests with flying colors. I may or may not disagree with this arguement myself, but one should not discount an unreferenced, but keepable, article with an unreferencable article. Still, if any current article on a school is indepenantly referencable, it already passes the Primary Notability Criterion and this guideline is unneccessary. If any current article on a school cannot be referenced (regardless of whether it currently is) then it should be deleted as it cannot contain any verifiable encyclopedic knowledge. However, one cannot claim that an unreferenced article is the same as an unreferencable one. --Jayron32 07:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- (in reply to Hjal) Yes, that material may be used. However, it may not establish notability. Sources used for that purpose must be independent of the article's subject. A website written by the subject pretty clearly fails that.
- (in reply to Jayron) Generally I don't, and certainly, rather then requesting deletion of convection, I would fact tag any dubious information, pull out an old textbook, and source the rest. But that's exactly the point-if someone did request deletion of that article, it would not be onerous to source it. It would be trivial. Why isn't it done? On the other hand, it's very difficult to find non-trivial mentions of many schools, even high schools. Blurbs, sure, but "The Foo High football team beat Bar High on January 1, 2000 by a score of 14-7" is not encyclopedic content, and is a routine, trivial mention. Any editor can challenge unreferenced information. Granted, unless it's a BLP concern or very obvious bullcrap, one should attempt first to look for sources and/or add a {{fact}} tag, and then delete if none are found or forthcoming. However, sometimes it's the case that no secondary sources are found or forthcoming for an entire article, school or otherwise, despite use of an {{unreferenced}} or {{primarysources}} tag for quite some time. In that case, the proper challenge is made at AfD. The fact that something theoretically might be verifiable doesn't mean we should wait forever on verification-that was the responsibility of the editor who added the material anyway, just like it's everyone's responsibility to make edits that conform to WP:NOR and WP:NPOV, it is everyone's responsibility to verify added information or articles. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 07:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Nothing to see here, move along ...
- Excuse me, but you said,"for most schools that I've seen, only a primary source is cited (usually the school's website), and that's good for nothing beyond a directory stub-ever. WP:V is pretty unambiguous-if you want to include information, it is your responsibility to find and cite sources." You referred to WP:V to back your statment, not WP:N. Neither policy supports your statement that a primary source can generate nothing more than a stub—ever. In addition, WP:N is a Guideline, not Policy, and is subject to exception when warranted. Including information about the educational system in any city is always warranted, including the high school(s) in a small or mid-sized town, and the school or district website might provide enough information by itself to produce a decent start class article, while it would overwhelm the locality article. You could start an Education in Foo article, but the deletionists have not responded favorably toward separate articles or clusters about school districts either. Finally, to go beyond what Jayron said, it is simply inconceivable that a high school in the U.S. could exist without being the subject of multiple, independent, verifiable publications. Whether it's in a small town or a big city, the planning, financing, design, attendance area, educational philosophy, principal selection, school board elections, bond elections, decline, closing, surplus land sale--all are covered and hashed over. You can't read daily and weekly newspapers for 40+ years without knowing this to be true. I suspect that is true in all English-speaking nations and most others. Only in states without a free pres would I expect otherwise. The problem for us is that many of the small and mid-size papers are not online, which makes finding third-party coverage online difficult sometimes. Similarly, the newspapers of record in the very largest cities (e.g., New York and Chicago) may not cover their hundreds of numbered public schools in the detail that I'm familiar with in Caifornia, Minnesota, and the DC area, and their neighborhood media are almost certainly not online. I do not think that either WP:V or WP:N is intended to strangle article creation when the creator does not have access to the local library in the locale of the article, as much as I wish that a local student would go to the damn library and fill out their articles.--Hjal 08:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- "It's hard to find sources, but I'm sure they're out there" is not an argument to keep anything. Nor is that "occasional exception" clause in the guideline tag meant to mean "whenever I feel like it." The occasional exception would be an edge case. Let's say, for example, that a subject is covered by a single independent source of exceptional depth, and that source is universally considered to be extremely reliable on that subject, but no other secondary sources were available. Sure, in that case, any reasonable editor would argue to waive the "multiple" requirement for secondary sources, and accept the single secondary source. But "All schools are notable!" is not an occasional exception, especially given the state of most of the school articles I've run across. Once again-if you create an article, it is your responsibility to ensure that the article is properly sourced. If you can't do that yet, draft the article in userspace and put it up once adequate sources can be gained! Many community newspapers are coming online, so if what you say is true, that won't be a problem in a few years. I'm not really sure as to what you say though-the community I live in is only mid-sized, and has several schools, but I've seen very little in the paper about them, and I read it daily. There's the standard high school sports blurbs, but I saw no more then one short editorial about the recent bond issue, and a few brief pieces about an elementary school closing and moving to another location (these were more "status updates" then in-depth coverage, and were more about the move then the school in any case). Certainly nothing that would support an article. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 09:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Excuse me, but you said,"for most schools that I've seen, only a primary source is cited (usually the school's website), and that's good for nothing beyond a directory stub-ever. WP:V is pretty unambiguous-if you want to include information, it is your responsibility to find and cite sources." You referred to WP:V to back your statment, not WP:N. Neither policy supports your statement that a primary source can generate nothing more than a stub—ever. In addition, WP:N is a Guideline, not Policy, and is subject to exception when warranted. Including information about the educational system in any city is always warranted, including the high school(s) in a small or mid-sized town, and the school or district website might provide enough information by itself to produce a decent start class article, while it would overwhelm the locality article. You could start an Education in Foo article, but the deletionists have not responded favorably toward separate articles or clusters about school districts either. Finally, to go beyond what Jayron said, it is simply inconceivable that a high school in the U.S. could exist without being the subject of multiple, independent, verifiable publications. Whether it's in a small town or a big city, the planning, financing, design, attendance area, educational philosophy, principal selection, school board elections, bond elections, decline, closing, surplus land sale--all are covered and hashed over. You can't read daily and weekly newspapers for 40+ years without knowing this to be true. I suspect that is true in all English-speaking nations and most others. Only in states without a free pres would I expect otherwise. The problem for us is that many of the small and mid-size papers are not online, which makes finding third-party coverage online difficult sometimes. Similarly, the newspapers of record in the very largest cities (e.g., New York and Chicago) may not cover their hundreds of numbered public schools in the detail that I'm familiar with in Caifornia, Minnesota, and the DC area, and their neighborhood media are almost certainly not online. I do not think that either WP:V or WP:N is intended to strangle article creation when the creator does not have access to the local library in the locale of the article, as much as I wish that a local student would go to the damn library and fill out their articles.--Hjal 08:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't see any reason to make an exception for schools. In any case, where do you draw the line? Do you think all nursery schools and primary schools should also have articles simply because they are perceived to be "important" to their local community? I would have thought that the majority of schools at secondary level will be able to demonstrate notability in one way or another. If it is so difficult for people to find appropriate sources then perhaps what we should be doing is offering constructive advice to point people in the right direction. I've already made some amendments to the guideline to this effect. Perhaps some of you will have other suggestions. Dahliarose 09:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I happen to think the street I live on is very important, but I don't feel that it deserves an article here. Yet it serves the community, has been the subject of some local newspaper articles, but so what? It's only of interest to the local population and STILL doesn't deserve to be here.
I have to admit, I don't really understand why there is such a fuss about "schools" in particular. Someone questioned why other municipal services don't deserve an exception also, so why not? The only answer was "Don't bring that up, we're talking about schools here." Well, what is it especially about schools that's so important? Would the people arguing for the notability of schools in Indiana also feel the same about the inclusion of all schools in India, say? Dare I say it, that people consider schools notable only because they go/went there? I'm not trying to provoke anyone, but just trying to see it from the bigger picture and understand it. Icemuon 10:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)- I don't know what street you live on or why some people feel that schools are not as "important" as say, Pokemon cards or imaginary Star Wars planets. Where I live, our community spends about five times as much on its public schools as it does on either its police force or fire department. Any dozens of times more than any one street. Our society not only taxes us to pay for the schools, but it requires children to attend them, and the overwhelming majority do in almost all places worldwide. Thus, schools seem to have a far greater inherent notability than a police station, post office or street. I would certainly draw the line at nursery schools, but other than that most schools have an inherent claim of notability in and of themselves. Even more than Hayashigame or Ossus, neither of which have any non-trivial sources, which may come as a shock to some of our more anal-retentive, rules-obsessed deletionists. Alansohn 12:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Alansohn, do be nice to the deletionists. No need for this to turn into a namecalling contest. I fail to see where in WP:N is the criteria for "Large amounts of money are spent on the subject", "Children are required to go here", or any of the like. (And if you'd like to put some Star Wars- or Pokecruft up for deletion, I'll be right behind you, but WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not a keep rationale.) Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 12:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see "All Pokemon characters or Star Wars planets are notable" but deletionists seem to have no problem with those. Can you point me to any of your many AfDs on the matter? If you're arguing that schools are less important than "Pokecruft", let's hear your arguments, or at least an explanation in the hierarchy of the Universe why the fact that coverage for schools is being deemed "trivial" while elsewhere no sources are required. WP:HYPOCRISY is not a delete rationale. I think a general rule that states that "many schools are notable" -- or even "most schools are notable" -- would be accepted by most humans worldwide based on their inherent societal importance, though I'm sure that more than a few deletionists would object. Alansohn 13:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Every time I read a school article I see "Mr. Harris is the vice-principal" or "The bell rings at 9:20..." etc. And how is that arguable as deserving inclusion in a global collection of amassed human knowledge? I myself couldn't care less about Pokemon characters or Star Wars planets but millions of people DO care about them. Can't say the same about your local schools. By the way, I'm not some ANTI-SCHOOL fanatic, and I doubt most deletionists are. I have seen good articles on schools (for example) that I think are worthy of articles. But the majority don't. Icemuon 13:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I guess it's the same feeling I get when I read "Hayashigame evolves from Turtwig at level 18, and into Dodaitose at level 32." or "Ossus was a rich, lush world with a Jedi training center and the Great Jedi Library which were established by Jedi Master Odan-Urr 4,996 BBY." Again, I will state that all schools have an inherent claim of notability bestowed by society, that no police precinct, post office or street has, let alone a Pokemon character or Star Wars planet. I see scholars here analyzing the relative triviality of articles and sources about schools, but who lack the intellectual consistency and rigor to apply the same standards anywhere else. The fact that Mr. Harris's existence or the 9:20 bell ringing time bother you is cause to improve the article not an excuse to delete it. Alansohn 13:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Unfortunately most cannot be improved because there is nothing more about them that can be said. Icemuon 13:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- You've set the bar extremely low and still failed to clear it. When you make absolute statements you're almost always wrong, and statements of the ilk of "most article cannot be improved" fall into that category. I'll step up to the challenge: Show me one school article that demonstrates that it would be impossible to improve it through the addition of a single additional bit of information about the school. If I can modify the article in any way that improves it, your statement will be disproven, and your "I guess I'm a deletionist; I think there's too much cruft on Wikipedia — for example, I think most schools should not have articles of their own" approach along with it. Alansohn 14:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- You're being pedantic. You can "improve" an article all you like, but that still won't make the subject matter important. Since I know you will automatically assume I've failed your challenge if I don't provide you with an article to improve, please take, say, this one. Icemuon 15:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I assume you picked this school as an example of one that would be the poster child for your "most articles cannot be improved" philosophy. Take a look at Springfield Park Elementary School and tell me that it has not been improved in the past half hour by enhancing the description of the school, adding sources for the information provided, trimming out unnecessary details and adding details of championships won by its chess team. I do not claim that all schools are notable, particularly at the elementary school level. But I think I have shown a perfect example of an article slapped with CSD and notability tags that could have been improved and been brought up to even the most pedantic standards with a trivial amount of effort. Thanks for proving my point. Alansohn 16:22, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- As I said, improving an article does not automatically make its subject matter important. You yourself claim that there are loads of "Star Wars- or Pokecruft" that are meticulously written and maintained. However, if you say "I do not claim that all schools are notable" then why are we even having this dicussion? Icemuon 16:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Do you realize that there is a log of all of your statements being retained here before you start writing? Timestamped 13:45 today, you insisted that "Unfortunately most cannot be improved because there is nothing more about them that can be said." At 15:19, you offered Springfield Park Elementary School as your basket case of an unimprovable article. Has the article been improved? Yes or no? Your user page states that "I guess I'm a deletionist; I think there's too much cruft on Wikipedia — for example, I think most schools should not have articles of their own." It seems clear that your biases are distorting your ability to recognize that most schools, particularly at the secondary level, are more than sufficiently notable to merit articles of their own. I don't need to argue that "all schools are notable" to justify that Springfield Park Elementary School is a perfect example of an article that you would have given a knee-jerk delete, without lifting a finger to research the school or improve the article. Alansohn 17:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Improved, yes, but is notability demonstrated? All I see are some regional chess championship wins -- that satisfies half of one of the (rather less than strict) criteria. Is there anything else? We don't, after all, host biographies of people who win a state chess championship once... Improvement is not the same as satisfying notability. It would appear from this discussion and the article talk page that I am not alone in this opinion. As another example, I could very easily write an autobiographical article, and I could improve it a great deal (certainly the sources I'd reference would be a great deal more independent of me than the Virginia DoE is of a Virginia school). This would not make me notable, and an editor would be justified and, I'd say, correct in tagging my article for deletion, regardless of my mentions in the Wall Street Journal etc. Shimeru 20:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Do you realize that there is a log of all of your statements being retained here before you start writing? Timestamped 13:45 today, you insisted that "Unfortunately most cannot be improved because there is nothing more about them that can be said." At 15:19, you offered Springfield Park Elementary School as your basket case of an unimprovable article. Has the article been improved? Yes or no? Your user page states that "I guess I'm a deletionist; I think there's too much cruft on Wikipedia — for example, I think most schools should not have articles of their own." It seems clear that your biases are distorting your ability to recognize that most schools, particularly at the secondary level, are more than sufficiently notable to merit articles of their own. I don't need to argue that "all schools are notable" to justify that Springfield Park Elementary School is a perfect example of an article that you would have given a knee-jerk delete, without lifting a finger to research the school or improve the article. Alansohn 17:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- As I said, improving an article does not automatically make its subject matter important. You yourself claim that there are loads of "Star Wars- or Pokecruft" that are meticulously written and maintained. However, if you say "I do not claim that all schools are notable" then why are we even having this dicussion? Icemuon 16:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I assume you picked this school as an example of one that would be the poster child for your "most articles cannot be improved" philosophy. Take a look at Springfield Park Elementary School and tell me that it has not been improved in the past half hour by enhancing the description of the school, adding sources for the information provided, trimming out unnecessary details and adding details of championships won by its chess team. I do not claim that all schools are notable, particularly at the elementary school level. But I think I have shown a perfect example of an article slapped with CSD and notability tags that could have been improved and been brought up to even the most pedantic standards with a trivial amount of effort. Thanks for proving my point. Alansohn 16:22, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- You're being pedantic. You can "improve" an article all you like, but that still won't make the subject matter important. Since I know you will automatically assume I've failed your challenge if I don't provide you with an article to improve, please take, say, this one. Icemuon 15:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- You've set the bar extremely low and still failed to clear it. When you make absolute statements you're almost always wrong, and statements of the ilk of "most article cannot be improved" fall into that category. I'll step up to the challenge: Show me one school article that demonstrates that it would be impossible to improve it through the addition of a single additional bit of information about the school. If I can modify the article in any way that improves it, your statement will be disproven, and your "I guess I'm a deletionist; I think there's too much cruft on Wikipedia — for example, I think most schools should not have articles of their own" approach along with it. Alansohn 14:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Unfortunately most cannot be improved because there is nothing more about them that can be said. Icemuon 13:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I guess it's the same feeling I get when I read "Hayashigame evolves from Turtwig at level 18, and into Dodaitose at level 32." or "Ossus was a rich, lush world with a Jedi training center and the Great Jedi Library which were established by Jedi Master Odan-Urr 4,996 BBY." Again, I will state that all schools have an inherent claim of notability bestowed by society, that no police precinct, post office or street has, let alone a Pokemon character or Star Wars planet. I see scholars here analyzing the relative triviality of articles and sources about schools, but who lack the intellectual consistency and rigor to apply the same standards anywhere else. The fact that Mr. Harris's existence or the 9:20 bell ringing time bother you is cause to improve the article not an excuse to delete it. Alansohn 13:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Every time I read a school article I see "Mr. Harris is the vice-principal" or "The bell rings at 9:20..." etc. And how is that arguable as deserving inclusion in a global collection of amassed human knowledge? I myself couldn't care less about Pokemon characters or Star Wars planets but millions of people DO care about them. Can't say the same about your local schools. By the way, I'm not some ANTI-SCHOOL fanatic, and I doubt most deletionists are. I have seen good articles on schools (for example) that I think are worthy of articles. But the majority don't. Icemuon 13:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see "All Pokemon characters or Star Wars planets are notable" but deletionists seem to have no problem with those. Can you point me to any of your many AfDs on the matter? If you're arguing that schools are less important than "Pokecruft", let's hear your arguments, or at least an explanation in the hierarchy of the Universe why the fact that coverage for schools is being deemed "trivial" while elsewhere no sources are required. WP:HYPOCRISY is not a delete rationale. I think a general rule that states that "many schools are notable" -- or even "most schools are notable" -- would be accepted by most humans worldwide based on their inherent societal importance, though I'm sure that more than a few deletionists would object. Alansohn 13:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Alansohn, do be nice to the deletionists. No need for this to turn into a namecalling contest. I fail to see where in WP:N is the criteria for "Large amounts of money are spent on the subject", "Children are required to go here", or any of the like. (And if you'd like to put some Star Wars- or Pokecruft up for deletion, I'll be right behind you, but WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not a keep rationale.) Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 12:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know what street you live on or why some people feel that schools are not as "important" as say, Pokemon cards or imaginary Star Wars planets. Where I live, our community spends about five times as much on its public schools as it does on either its police force or fire department. Any dozens of times more than any one street. Our society not only taxes us to pay for the schools, but it requires children to attend them, and the overwhelming majority do in almost all places worldwide. Thus, schools seem to have a far greater inherent notability than a police station, post office or street. I would certainly draw the line at nursery schools, but other than that most schools have an inherent claim of notability in and of themselves. Even more than Hayashigame or Ossus, neither of which have any non-trivial sources, which may come as a shock to some of our more anal-retentive, rules-obsessed deletionists. Alansohn 12:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Ceci n'est pas un titre
- Pokemon have verifiably proved their notability. They are the subject of a playable card game and a console game. They have spawned countless films, TV shows, books, magazines, websites, etc. Because so much has been written about them it is possible to write detailed articles on the subject to explain how the game is played and the role of the various characters. Children, and many adults, anywhere in the world will recognise the names of various Pokemon. The same cannot be said for most schools. For instance, I can name many schools in the UK but I could not name a single school in America, let alone in Indiana. In contrast, I can name many of the Pokemon characters. If sufficient material has been written on a school to prove its notability then it should have an article, but the onus has to be on the writer to state within the article why the particular school is noteworthy and to provide verification. All secondary schools at least will have had volumes of information written about them so why is it so difficult for people to find the sources to write good articles? Dahliarose 14:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- The education industry has verifiably proved its notability. They have spawned far more films, TV shows, books, magazines, websites, etc. than any Pokemon-like playing card has. My example of Hayashigame provides sources about Pokemon in general, but not a single source about Hayashigame itself, let alone anything reliable or verifiable. Far more of society's resources are devoted to any school in Indiana than on any single Pokemon playing card. Your ignorance of schools beyond your borders is why we need more articles about schools, to give you more of the edumucation you need on the subject. Alansohn 14:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- We shouldn't conflagrate the education industry with individual schools. The education industry is obviously notable in the aggregate. Individual schools are not. Millions of children around the world can recognize, name and discuss hundreds of Pokemon characters. How many are familiar with a random local school? If WP had hit counters, how many hits do you think we'd see on a random Pokecruft or Jedicruft page, as compared to even a relatively high traffic high school page? Shouldn't that be telling us something? Butseriouslyfolks 17:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is that the Pokemon articles you hold up as an example fail the most basic tests of reliability and verifiability. As an example, Hayashigame provides sources about Pokemon in general, but not a single source about Hayashigame itself, let alone anything reliable or verifiable. 99.9% of Wikipedia articles would fail your Poke-test. Furthermore, even the best-written, exquisitely sourced and verifiable school article will almost certainly have but a fraction of the hits of any "random Pokecruft or Jedicruft page". Wikipedia is not a popularity contest, and these Pokemon articles will be distant faded memories in the not-too-distant future, while these schools will be in business for decades and centuries to come. Schools have inherent notability. Pokemon characters and Star Wars planets have none. Alansohn 18:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- First you insult other participants by calling them "arrogant deletionists", and now you present a clear
distribution fallacyfallacy of distribution in a manner which makes it unquestionably deliberate. Oh, and you've started calling people "ignorant" again. You're lucky you're getting any meaningful responses at all, let alone still able to edit. Chris cheese whine 17:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 19:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- We shouldn't conflagrate the education industry with individual schools. The education industry is obviously notable in the aggregate. Individual schools are not. Millions of children around the world can recognize, name and discuss hundreds of Pokemon characters. How many are familiar with a random local school? If WP had hit counters, how many hits do you think we'd see on a random Pokecruft or Jedicruft page, as compared to even a relatively high traffic high school page? Shouldn't that be telling us something? Butseriouslyfolks 17:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- The education industry has verifiably proved its notability. They have spawned far more films, TV shows, books, magazines, websites, etc. than any Pokemon-like playing card has. My example of Hayashigame provides sources about Pokemon in general, but not a single source about Hayashigame itself, let alone anything reliable or verifiable. Far more of society's resources are devoted to any school in Indiana than on any single Pokemon playing card. Your ignorance of schools beyond your borders is why we need more articles about schools, to give you more of the edumucation you need on the subject. Alansohn 14:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Pokemon have verifiably proved their notability. They are the subject of a playable card game and a console game. They have spawned countless films, TV shows, books, magazines, websites, etc. Because so much has been written about them it is possible to write detailed articles on the subject to explain how the game is played and the role of the various characters. Children, and many adults, anywhere in the world will recognise the names of various Pokemon. The same cannot be said for most schools. For instance, I can name many schools in the UK but I could not name a single school in America, let alone in Indiana. In contrast, I can name many of the Pokemon characters. If sufficient material has been written on a school to prove its notability then it should have an article, but the onus has to be on the writer to state within the article why the particular school is noteworthy and to provide verification. All secondary schools at least will have had volumes of information written about them so why is it so difficult for people to find the sources to write good articles? Dahliarose 14:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- (Personal attack removed)Springfield Park Elementary School(Personal attack removed). (Personal attack removed), (Personal attack removed). Any notability issues with the article are more than satisfied, (Personal attack removed). (Personal attack removed). Do you honestly believe that three administrators of a school constitutes a laundry list. (Personal attack removed). Alansohn 17:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I agree that the article on Hayashigame is pretty poor and there is scope for improvement. Nevertheless it is one character in a game and because the game itself is notable then each individual character needs an explanation. There is an article on chess and each playing piece has its own page so why should the Pokemon game be any different? The notability of the game is already proven and there have been several featured articles on the subject. The article which Alansohn quotes on Springfield Park Elementary School does nothing to demonstrate its notability, despite the addition of a few references. Winning a few isolated chess tournaments in Virginia does not seem particularly noteworthy to me. The school might be very important to those people who live in Virginia but as the article stands there is nothing to suggest it has anything other than local interest. I'd be very interested to learn about schools in other countries but this particular article tells me absolutely nothing of interest. Dahliarose 23:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- By your argument, if Education -- or more specifically, Education in the United States -- is notable, wouldn't that make all schools, or at least all schools in the United States notable? To address specifics, Springfield Park Elementary School has won two state championships in chess. This establishes notability under criteria 2: "The school has gained national recognition for its curriculum or program of instruction, or for its success at the national level in extracurricular activities such as art or athletics. For example, the school has been recognized with a notable national award, has won a science competition at the national level, or its athletic teams hold a nationwide record. Or, the school has gained recognition at the regional level in multiple such areas." The fact that I (and the overwhelming majority of Wikipedians) find absolutely nothing of interest in Hayashigame, and the fact that it has no references whatsoever specific to the article, has not hampered its universal acceptance. If notability of Pokémon makes Hayashigame and all "Pokecruft" notable, why doesn't notability of Education make all schools notable? Alansohn 01:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- I agree that the article on Hayashigame is pretty poor and there is scope for improvement. Nevertheless it is one character in a game and because the game itself is notable then each individual character needs an explanation. There is an article on chess and each playing piece has its own page so why should the Pokemon game be any different? The notability of the game is already proven and there have been several featured articles on the subject. The article which Alansohn quotes on Springfield Park Elementary School does nothing to demonstrate its notability, despite the addition of a few references. Winning a few isolated chess tournaments in Virginia does not seem particularly noteworthy to me. The school might be very important to those people who live in Virginia but as the article stands there is nothing to suggest it has anything other than local interest. I'd be very interested to learn about schools in other countries but this particular article tells me absolutely nothing of interest. Dahliarose 23:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
(indent reset) I would agree, Alan. Not all Pokemon are notable just because Pokemon itself certainly is. (By that standard, we'd have to presume that, since McDonald's is notable, every one of its employees is!) Notability doesn't "rub off"-either an individual subject is notable enough for a separate article, by that subject (not a parent subject, or a related one) being covered in non-trivial, reliable sources, or it is not. Pokemon is unquestionably notable. Most of its characters are not. Star Wars is highly notable, and probably some of its characters are as well (Darth Vader and Han Solo, at least, are cultural icons, and certainly have received plenty of literary and critical analysis), but its minor characters and planets are generally not. The same with schools-the question is not "Are all schools notable?" The question is "Is this particular school notable?" To some the answer will be yes, to others, it will be no. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 02:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- We've actually made some progress in the wording in criteria 2, which reflects clarification that awards received are an affirmative demonstration of notability. Springfield Park Elementary School, our "incapable of any possible improvement" challenge article, has won two state championships in chess, which establishes notability under criteria 2. All schools are not notable, yet all schools have an inherent claim and presumption of notability that sets them above any Pokemon character or any McDonalds location. While the current proposal is still far too restrictive to be acceptable, it is heading in the right direction. Alansohn 02:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- "is a school" is not an assertion of notability. There is no such thing as an "inherent claim and presumption of notability". You saying it is does not make it so. The whole point of notability is that it is a quality that is "inherent" in nothing. Chris cheese whine 11:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- All municipalities and governments have a presumption of notability in Wikipedia. There is no obligation to demonstrate that a town is unique or that there are reliable sources to demonstrate a village's notability. It was asserted and it is so. Your assertion that schhols do not have an inherent claim of notability greater then Pokemon cards or McDonalds locations violates your own claim on making assertions, by simply begging the question. Alansohn 12:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- "is a school" is not an assertion of notability. There is no such thing as an "inherent claim and presumption of notability". You saying it is does not make it so. The whole point of notability is that it is a quality that is "inherent" in nothing. Chris cheese whine 11:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Regarding this "You said no article can be improved, I improved one, therefore your argument is flawed" statement — I thought it was clear from the context that in this sense "improving" meant bring the article up to the status of an article worth keeping. But apparently this was not clear, so I should have worded it better. Of course every article can be improved in order to make it better. Even featured articles can be improved. There's no such thing as the perfect article. But it still stands that well-written articles can lack importance of subject matter. Icemuon 10:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- I will quote you directly again: "Unfortunately most cannot be improved because there is nothing more about them that can be said." I asked you to "Show me one school article that demonstrates that it would be impossible to improve it through the addition of a single additional bit of information about the school." You picked Springfield Park Elementary School as your example of an unimprovable article. Over the span of several minutes of searching and editing, I added that the school's chess team has won two state championships. This establishes notability under criteria 2: "The school has gained national recognition for its curriculum or program of instruction, or for its success at the national level in extracurricular activities such as art or athletics. For example, the school has been recognized with a notable national award, has won a science competition at the national level, or its athletic teams hold a nationwide record. Or, the school has gained recognition at the regional level in multiple such areas." The article clearly meets the standards of notability set by this project. The unimprovable article been improved. This exercise demonstrates the fundamental issue with the assumption that no schools are notable. All schools have an inherent claim of notability, and almost all school articles have material available to improve them to meet even the rigid standards set here so far. Alansohn 12:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- There is an error in your final sentence. Chris cheese whine 12:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- As long as you agree with everything else, I guess we're making progress together. Thanks for the vote of support. Alansohn 13:10, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- If Alansohn believes that all schools are inherently notable then by definition he means all schools worldwide not just those in America. I am sure that there are many notable schools in Africa, China, Japan, but I imagine it would be very difficult to write articles about most of them. Perhaps he might like to accept the challenge of writing an article about a random school in, say, North Korea to prove his point. You can't have one rule for America and another rule for the rest of the world. Dahliarose 13:38, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- I have never stated that "all schools are notable". While I have edited school articles for schools in Canada, Australia, India and Nepal (among other places) in response to articles for deletion, I have chosen to focus on schools in the United States, based primarily on ensuring access to source material, which limits me to a few hundred thousand schools. As stated above, "All schools have an inherent claim of notability, and almost all school articles have material available to improve them to meet even the rigid standards set here so far." While I have created hundreds of school and school district article, and saved dozens of school articles from certain (or likely) deletion -- Springfield Park Elementary School notably among them -- it is unjustifiable to insist that no school anywhere in the world is notable by insisting that adequate material be available for every school on the planet to justify the creation of an article on any school. As I have proven when given the task of improving Springfield Park Elementary School, the poster child of unimprovable articles, it can be done and has been done. An overwhelming percentage of schools deserve articles on Wikipedia. It's time that we agreed upon the standards that would clarify which do and which don't to reflect this reality. Alansohn 14:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Your edit summary is "An overwhelming percentage of schools deserve articles on Wikipedia". Quit whining and show us the evidence already. Your endless cycle of fallacy and constant lack of civility is trying our patience. Chris cheese whine 14:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Take a gander at Springfield Park Elementary School, an article that User:Icemuon insisted was the perfect example of an unimprovable article. The article has been expanded to approximately a dozen sources, which can be reviewed as reliable and verifiabl by all involved. Even User:Chriscf acknowledges that this article meets any and all standards of notability. Its easier for some schools than others, but the same way notability was demonstrated for Springfield Park Elementary School, is the same way it can be done for the overwhelming percentage of schools. (Personal attack removed) Alansohn 22:15, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
- I've removed some attacks, Chris and Alan, please remove the hands from each other's throats. This doesn't need to end up at RfC or ArbCom. That being said, I don't personally see it for Springfield Park from the online sources (those are mostly statistics lists or name drops, which would make them either primary or trivial), but I'm willing to presume some good faith in that the offline ones may be longer and more comprehensive (as is often the case). I'd certainly rather see that then the primary-sourced OR mess most school articles are. The fact remains, though, that most school articles aren't that way, and I don't really imagine they can be. Many of them have been up for AfD, and even when the discussion was clearly leaning toward deletion, no one went and did what Alan just did-which would've probably saved the article. Rather, we just get a lot of "All schools are notable" without anyone actually going and finding the sources to prove it. I think that's the main problem people have with schools (and the problem I've got with most Wikiproject-done stuff, realistically). Most of those are not thinking in terms of "Does this particular subset of our interest, or this one, or this one, belong in the encyclopedia?" Rather, they write permastubs about every last trivial bit of it, and then become quite incensed when secondary sources are requested (and required). If all schools really do belong in Wikipedia, cite your source for that. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 22:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
- Take a gander at Springfield Park Elementary School, an article that User:Icemuon insisted was the perfect example of an unimprovable article. The article has been expanded to approximately a dozen sources, which can be reviewed as reliable and verifiabl by all involved. Even User:Chriscf acknowledges that this article meets any and all standards of notability. Its easier for some schools than others, but the same way notability was demonstrated for Springfield Park Elementary School, is the same way it can be done for the overwhelming percentage of schools. (Personal attack removed) Alansohn 22:15, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
- Your edit summary is "An overwhelming percentage of schools deserve articles on Wikipedia". Quit whining and show us the evidence already. Your endless cycle of fallacy and constant lack of civility is trying our patience. Chris cheese whine 14:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- I have never stated that "all schools are notable". While I have edited school articles for schools in Canada, Australia, India and Nepal (among other places) in response to articles for deletion, I have chosen to focus on schools in the United States, based primarily on ensuring access to source material, which limits me to a few hundred thousand schools. As stated above, "All schools have an inherent claim of notability, and almost all school articles have material available to improve them to meet even the rigid standards set here so far." While I have created hundreds of school and school district article, and saved dozens of school articles from certain (or likely) deletion -- Springfield Park Elementary School notably among them -- it is unjustifiable to insist that no school anywhere in the world is notable by insisting that adequate material be available for every school on the planet to justify the creation of an article on any school. As I have proven when given the task of improving Springfield Park Elementary School, the poster child of unimprovable articles, it can be done and has been done. An overwhelming percentage of schools deserve articles on Wikipedia. It's time that we agreed upon the standards that would clarify which do and which don't to reflect this reality. Alansohn 14:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- There is an error in your final sentence. Chris cheese whine 12:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- I will quote you directly again: "Unfortunately most cannot be improved because there is nothing more about them that can be said." I asked you to "Show me one school article that demonstrates that it would be impossible to improve it through the addition of a single additional bit of information about the school." You picked Springfield Park Elementary School as your example of an unimprovable article. Over the span of several minutes of searching and editing, I added that the school's chess team has won two state championships. This establishes notability under criteria 2: "The school has gained national recognition for its curriculum or program of instruction, or for its success at the national level in extracurricular activities such as art or athletics. For example, the school has been recognized with a notable national award, has won a science competition at the national level, or its athletic teams hold a nationwide record. Or, the school has gained recognition at the regional level in multiple such areas." The article clearly meets the standards of notability set by this project. The unimprovable article been improved. This exercise demonstrates the fundamental issue with the assumption that no schools are notable. All schools have an inherent claim of notability, and almost all school articles have material available to improve them to meet even the rigid standards set here so far. Alansohn 12:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
While WP:Notability is under flux, challenge, it's probably prudent to postpone thinking about exceptions to it. SmokeyJoe 20:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Got a point there. You're saying, get WP:N fixed before we decide on an eception to it for schools?