Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Archive 20

Shiloh Shepherd Dog

Summary

ISSR Group: Numerous changes/rewrites to article preventing a neutral/unbiased opinion of the Shiloh Shepherd to be presented. Political/self-serving positions, slander, and derogratory statements made against "non-ISSR" breeders/owners. No attempt made to allow the article to be presented providing simple information about the dog without providing personal POV. Continued absence of any presentation of verifiable sources outside of the editors own website/articles. "Breed Founder" continues to turn article in a personal kennel advertisment, while making defamatory unfounded statements about clubs/registries outside of her immediate control.

ISSDC Group: Numerous attempts to keep document unbiased, non-slanderous, and informative using verifiable sources. Attempts to initiate corrective actions via discussion board and additionally via "Talk" option (to user TrillHill) but went without acknowledgement from the user. After multiple discussion points raised, a reply was provide but demonstrated no attempt for an impartial article to be provided, only replacing previously edited comments with further slander and rhetoric.

For moderators to fully understand the issue at hand, an appreciation must be had that this is a breed severely divided. Claims of name ownership (trademark status), citing of civil court settlement documents, only reference breeder's own website and POV articles.

POV Comments such as:

"imitators and dissident breed clubs and registries arose" which was changed to "alterate" and since changed back and forth.

"It must be remembered that the Shiloh Shepherd Dog is from only one kennel, runned and controled by Tina Barber. All breeding is controlled through this kennel by way of her club and registry."

"None of these have full documentation regarding the true ancestry, nor do they follow the rules of the official and true registry established by the breed founder, to document all LMX data for this breed while in development."

"The breed now has multiple self proclaimed registries"

"However, the breeds original registry, International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. (ISSR) continues to stand strong with over 4,000 carefully selected progeny registered since 1991, and over 45,000 ancestors in their database working with the original breed club - Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. and Tina M. Barber, the breed founder."

Even reference to items such as "ISSR licensed breeders" are misleading to readers and are further cases of personal POV.

Even links to commonly recognized external/unbiased canine health sources (Pennhip/OFA) were deleted due to ??? (can only assume lack of participation by ISSR users). Even though health is a key section of the article, again no external references outside of the direct control of the founder are allowed (reference the GTF in the discussion area).

I am assuming this issue will not be resolved via mediation due to the hostile nature of the parties involved and in all likelihood should be considered for prompt Wikipedia Arbitration to achieve a final ruling on the article and should then be locked to prevent further editing. ShenandoahShilohs 21:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

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I would ask that the moderators please keep in mind that some of the non-ISSR breeders attempted to get UKC recognition even though Shiloh Shepherds are a breed in developement and the stud books are not closed (SSDCA Response to the UKC and SSDCA Members Respond to the UKC). The ISSR and SSDCA successfully blocked the UKC recognition attempt. Such closing of the studbooks can only be done by the parent club and the associated registry (SSDCA and ISSR, respectively). Breed recognition organizations such as FCI look at that as one of the main criteria for recognition of rare breed status.

''Again, none of that has anything to do with an article on a Breed of Dog. You may want to believe that Tina Barber is seeking FCI recognition, but that is not true. If this breed ever received FCI recognition she would no longer be able to control everything like she do desperatly needs to do. Furthermore, she would no longer be able to breed some of the dogs being bred now with soft ears, and undersized.'' This is all about the fact that Tina needs everything to be all about her.''

Genetic lines must be broad enough, with the proper outcrossing according to tight breeding controls, to allow the breed to survive healthwise (as well as in the final look of the dog) without additional fresh genetic material after the stud books close. This information is stored for the ISSR in computerized databases.

OFA, Pennhip, and other testing is being done to ensure the overall health of the dogs produced. Participaption in this testing is required before breeding any dogs. As to why the links to the OFA and Pennhip were erased? Unknown.

Tony, if I were you I wouldn't bet the farm on that statement. Participation may be required of anyone other than Tina herself and this too can be proven. Also, even if the dogs fail thier hip testing if you are TB's buddy, she will over ride OFA etc and give the dog a "SP- Still permissable" so the dog can still be bred. Maybe that was why the links were removed, hide the real facts.

Yes, there is some bad blood between some of the ISSR and non-ISSR folks. And, the breed founder, Tina Barber has every right to be upset with some of the things that has been done to her over the years by some of the non-ISSR breeders. All of the initial breeding stock the non-ISSR breeders started with were from ISSR lines when the owners of those dogs split from the ISSR. None of the pups from those litters whelped by the non-ISSR breeders after the split can be registered with the ISSR. The genetic material from that breeding stock is now gone. Hence, it has also taken longer to close the stud books.

Tony, please take it from someone who has been around for 10 years, it isn't as simple as you think. Trust me, no one that has left wants to register thier puppies with the ISSR, why do you think they left and are still leaving? The "genetic material" as you claim is not gone, it has just left the ISSR and doing just fine including all the genes from Artus and Orbit that the breeders brougt with them when they too have recently left. I am sure it does hurt the ISSR gene pool. It is too bad for them that TB treats people so poorly that they need to leave.

As far as the claim by ShenandoahShilohs: "It must be remembered that the Shiloh Shepherd Dog is from only one kennel, ran and controlled by Tina Barber. All breeding is controlled through this kennel by way of her club and registry", the German Shepherd breed was started by one person over one hundred years ago in one kennel. That person had controlled the breeding of the German Shepherds until well after the studbooks had closed German Shepherd Dog - Wikipedia (history). Tina Barber patterned the ISSR after the German SV to help (ISSR Rules and Regulations). Such tight controls are essential in producing a stable breed genetically. As the GSD Wiki points out, take a good look at what the difference between the FCI GSD's and the North American Show Fancy GSD's Breed Lines.

I submit to the moderating committee that the article as initially submitted and approved by Tina Barber is the correct one to use ISSR Revision. The outcrosses the non-ISSR breeders are/will use to try to stablize their already small genepool will change the look of their dogs enough to be considered different from Shiloh Shepherds.

With respect,

Anthony Matzke SSDCA Shiloh Shepherd Ambassador

The article submitted by Tina Barber has many claims that are untrue and can be proven as such. Her claims that the non ISSR breeders do not have data recorded is a blatant lie. For the record, at the time the first split occurred we had the full listing of dogs that the ISSR's TCCP had. It is called the Alpha listing and it was given to me by TB herself. Also, many of the people that initially left had many many detailed pedigrees that had further data. So this claim is false. Next she claims that it is mandatory for the ISSR breeders to have hip, heart and elbow testing done. Once again, a blatant lie which can easliy be proven by going to her own web site and reading her own ISSR rules. The ONLY testing required by the ISSR registered dogs for breeding is a 12 month old preliminary hip certification. And as mentioned above, that is often circumvented by Tina herself so in reality, at times dogs are being bred within the ISSR that are deemed dysplastic by orthopedic specialists.

As for the claim the non ISSR dogs will change the look of the Shiloh is hogwash. For one, in reality we have a much larger gene pool than the ISSR. We have more full Shiloh bloodlines and along with the outcrosses we have brought in, we also now have a good gene pool of the ISSR's outcrosses. We are not at all worried about a limited gene pool, but I am sure TB is. As for them looking different, we may look different than some of what is coming out of the ISSR lately with thier oversized ears and the faded muzzles that have no black as required by the ISSR breed standard. While all dogs, including Shilohs will have faults, the non ISSR breeders are still breeding to the original breed standard.

The article that I submitted was fair and unbiased. It still gave credit to TB as the founder, and it still left the discription of the breed. The only changes that were made was the removal of her incorrect and false data. It is an article about the BREED, not about Tina and that is what she can't stand.

Once again, I submit that the unbias article that is an article just about the Breed be the article that Wikipedia accepts.

ShenandoahShilohs 13:38, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

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The ISSR formally requests email-based moderation of this article. All information requested by the moderators will be supplied by myself (Anthony Matzke) via email at shilohshepherd@rednation.net or Tina Barber via mashiloh@aol.com.

With respect,

Anthony Matzke, SSDCA Shiloh Shepherd Ambassador

_____________________________________________________________________________

Oh how typical, lets try to hide the facts behind e-mails. No way can Tina stand the heat of answering questions in an open public format. For years she has protected herself in privately owned e-groups where each post has to be approved so that she can avoid answering tough questions for all to view. All info is spoon fed to her subscribers and only one line of thinking expressed. People are just subjected to her many self written links of hate to rally her troops to feel sorry for her and send money for one of her many "needs". When asked in a public format to prove her wild facts she wants to hide behind private e-mails. I seriously doubt that mediation will work and arbitration will be needed.

ShenandoahShilohs 15:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I can't imagine why my posts are being deleted by Katy/ISSR. Perhaps they feel that a one-sided arbitration would work in their favor. Luckily, I kept a copy so we'll try again.

The Non-ISSR Group does not support or agree to private email mediation at this time and are adamant that all mediation discussions continue to remain in the public forum to help ensure the accuracy of the claims. No private mediation will be agreed to.

Additionally, given the clear breach of WP:RPA by user Tina M Barber in the Shiloh Shepherd Dog Talk section, whereby the user engaged in direct personal attacks against user Shiloh Lover by posting personal employment information, and stated that contact would be made to the user's employer with an attempt to disrupt. See "Comical" on talk page of article in question.

With the tactics used, and clear/continued wanton disregard for the foundation of Wiki rules, this user should be considered hostile and not part of any attempts at mediation (let alone any further “contribution” to the Wikipedia community). The Wiki arbitration committee should be placing a ban on user Tina M Barber.

Gloria 21:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC) ____________________________________________________________________________

The ISSDC position and recommendations for the Shiloh Shepherd article

In reference to the Shiloh Dog article below are the objections and concerns of the article that Tina Barber and her ISSR people keep posting.

After each objection I have included the version submitted by the ISSDC group representing all parties not affiliated with TB or the ISSR.

Under the NOTES catagory:

TB/ISSR writes:

Recognized by some Rare Breed organizations such as RBCSWO, ARBA, Rarities, NKC, IABCA for Showing purposes. Full breed recognition has not been attained as yet, due to the small genepool that is still under development

We have submitted the following:

Recognized by some Rare Breed organizations such as RBCSWO, ARBA, Rarities, NKC, IABCA for Showing purposes''''

The changes made are reflective of the fact that it is only TB/ISSR's POV that this breed is still under development. In 1991 TB/ISSR requested breed recognition for the Shiloh Shepherd to ARBA (American Rare Breed Assoc.). ARBA granted recognition for the Shiloh Shepherd as a breed of dog, placing them in the Hearding group. Never were they told this was a breed under development, they were told it was a Breed. This can easily be verified by the ARBA President. Further, all through the '90's the Shiloh Shepherd was marketted and sold as a Breed of Dog, not a breed under development. At the time that many of us paid dearly for our first Shiloh we were told it was a breed and that it was "genetically blueprinted" against health issues etc. During that time the stud books were closed.'It has just been in the past few years well after so many people left her organization did she decide to say it was a breed under development. Under HISTORY

TB/ISSR writes:

The Shiloh Shepherd Dog has been under development by breed founder Tina Barber of Shiloh Shepherds (Kennel) in New York state in a sustained effort over the last third of the 20th century. http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMap2005HistoryShilohShepherd.htm

The only objection to this part is the link as it take you to TB/ISSR web site. That private web site is full of links where she is hostile and disparaging to anyone not affiliated with her or her group. We request the link be deleted.''

More under HISTORY

TB/ISSR writes: None of these have full documentation regarding the database, nor do they follow the rules of the official and true registry established by the breed founder, to document all LMX data for this breed while in development.

However, the breeds original registry, International Shiloh Shepherd Registry, Inc. (ISSR) continues to stand strong with over 4,000 carefully selected progeny registered since 1991, and over 45,000 ancestors in their database working with the original breed club - Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. and Tina M. Barber, the breed founder.

There are false claims made in stating that none of the group not belonging with the ISSR have full documentation. Also, she uses her onw POV that she has the only official and true registry as well as again calling the Shiloh Shepherd a breed in development.

Further she claims that the ISSR stand strong, thus disparaging all others and promotes her POV only.

We have written:

The Shiloh Shepherd Dog has been under development by breed founder Tina Barber of Shiloh Shepherds (Kennel) in New York state in a sustained effort over the last third of the 20th century. As the breed achieved wider recognition and popularity near the turn of the millennium other Registries were formed as well as a second Club for these Registries.The breed now has multiple registries, including, The International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR), The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR), the National Shiloh Breeders Registry (NSBR), the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA). There are two Shiloh Shepherd Dog Clubs, the Shilohs Shepherd Dog Club of America (SSDCA) and the International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club (ISSDC). For further information on all of the above Registries and Clubs please use the external links section of this article

All groups are represented equally, there are no links to anyone's private web site, it is fair, neutral and unbias.

Under HEALTH:

TB/ISSR writes:

The main health issues in this breed are gastrointestinal problems (gastric torsion/bloat, bacterial overgrowth syndrome) and skeletal or bone disorders such as hip dysplasia, panosteitis and osteochondritis That said, licensed breeders seem very aware of health concerns and have taken strong measures toward effective control programmes and promote health testing, as per the breeding rules set by the ISSR, Inc. such as hip, heart, and elbow certification as well as entering reported disease data into the GTF database. The SSDCA, Inc (parent breed club) commissioned Dr. George A. Padgett to survey our breeding program in 2000, and provide us with complete reports, this information has been listed & updated via our websites. http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMapHealthSurvey.htm

Again, many self serving POV as well as misleading information. She eludes that ISSR breeders per ISSR rules are required to do hip, heart and elbow testing. This is a total falsehood. Per the ISSR rules all a breeder needs to do is a prelimanary hip testing, and even if they fail that Tina Barber will override OFA etc and grant them a hip rating of SP (Still Permissible) allowing a dysplastic dog to be bred.'The rest is just more promotion of self and her organization over others.

We have written:

The main health issues in this breed are gastrointestinal problems (gastric torsion/bloat, bacterial overgrowth syndrome) and skeletal or bone disorders such as hip dysplasia, panosteitis and osteochondritis. The accepted organizations for health certifications are OFA, Penn HIP, and CERF. Most Shiloh Shepherd Breeders utilize these organizations to screen their breeding dogs. As giant breeds go, the Shiloh is arguably quite a healthy example

The common health issues of the breed are listed and the organizations that are accredited to certify them listed. Again, totally inclusive and neutral to all.

External Links:

TB/ISSR recently added a link called Registry Comparisons

This is a link to a hate filled site consisting of lies, name calling, and libelous statements and TB's hostile POV. This link as well as the other links in this article posted by TB and the ISSR folks must be deleted and if any of her group post them again it is in direct violation of Wikipedia's rules so we ask that the posters be banned from posting.

ShenandoahShilohs 21:48, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

So far I only see poor Tony (not even a breeder, but an owner of 2 service dogs - one retired) and a few non_ISSR breeders that insist on trying to change the TRUTH!

1. The shiloh Shepherd is NOT a *breed* of dog! It consists of a mixture that I created, and have continued to develop under the banner of the ISSR. Neighter the CKC - AKC or even UKC would be interested in "recognizing" these dogs as a *BREED* PERIOD

If you want to read an unbiased web page proving this, why not visit http://canadasguidetodogs.com/breedregistries.htm

2. When Jeff put up the information about these dogs, nobody messed with it until now .. WHY? Maybe because the ISSDC did not even exist at that point?? Yet now this new group wants equal billing with the ISSR?? WHY??

3. I thought that the Wikipedia was about FACTS .. not POV foolishness! If that's the case, then the facts are NOT hard to find!! They are all listed via the many CLUB websites that are now available ... yes, I have written most of those articles (not all) but that is because I know more about these dogs then anyone else!! Those sites don't belong to me .. they belong to the hundreds of members of the SSDCA, Inc. My private sites are under New Zion Shilohs! Please compare!! http://shilohshepherds.info/siteMap.htm and http://newzionshilohs.org/Home.htm

Tina M. Barber

Re: breed of dog

You really need to make up your mind, TB. I know that contridicting yourself usually works for you but in this instance a record is being kept.

You state above on #1 that this is NOT a breed of dog. Yet in your own article, http://www.shilohshepherds.info/whatIsAShilohShepherd.htm, you refer to the Shiloh Shepherd over and over again as a breed of dog. I counted five times and only read a couple paragraphs. You refer to yourself as a "breed warden" and a "breed founder", and you have a "breed standard". You wrote this yourself!!!!

1. 3. It's obvious to anyone readng these posts that you/ISSR have been the ones changing the unbiased information to the lies, name calling, and slanderous information. Just because you say or write differently just doesn't mean it's so.

Gloria 00:39, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

(moved from top of page) {{Research please}}

I think it's a wonderful idea that Wiki research the facts themselves. Just to have anyone submit information really isn't a help to anyone who is looking for the truth. Yes there is bad blood on both sides. Makes a person wonder why, who started it, what's really behind the words.

This breed is under development by Tina Barber, the breed founder. Others have left with breedable stock, but aren't breeding under the orginal plan. This only means one thing, they have removed themselves and the dogs from the ISSR shiloh shepherd genetic pool. Once the ISSR get's finalized, meaning when Tina Barber is done creating this breed, the books will be closed. The ISSR will go for recognition and the others won't be a part of history.

67.186.153.43 17:26, 15 December 2005 (UTC)Katy Schuele

____________________________________________________________________________

Hi Katy, I understand that you are relatively new to the Shiloh world, but I do have a question for you. You state that once the ISSR is finalized the books will be closed. Do you have any idea when that may be? It has been 15 years since the Shiloh became a rare breed and in the early to mid 90's the stud books were closed. Tina opened them during the end of the 90's to incorporate two outcrosses. Do you feel that these two outcrosses will sustain your gene pool? Or will more be needed thus leaving the stud books open for how long?

As myself and others that have been involved with this breed for over 10 years can tell you, Tina had always made it clear that she never wanted to take this breed to the next level of recognition as she could no longer control everything.

So if this has changed maybe you can share when the stud books will close and when the ISSR will "go for recognition" ?

Thank you, ShenandoahShilohs 18:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)