Wikipedia talk:Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Pervasive style issues in ORB's

Telzer, Nesher, and everyone else: I am noticing certain pervasive style errors in many ORB's, namely:

1. Years should not be linked unless they are birth/death years in the leading para.
2. We should not be linking Yiddish nicknames for major cities of Europe, such as Dvinsk and Kovno. Shtetlach like Birz are OK, imo, b/c they're obscure, and the reader will likely have no clue. Dvinsk and Kovno exist as redirects, but it doesn't mean we should be linking to them. I suggest "Kovno (Kaunas)"; "Dvinsk (Daugavpils)", etc.
3. We should be careful to list the countries of these places, at least the modern-day, and, where necessary, both (e.g. "then-Poland, now-Ukraine"). And we should get them right. An American's first assumption is "it's in the Alte Heim, who cares what country it is now", but that's silly.

Thanks. - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• Hi Crz, with all respect, I differ with your thinking in number 2. Just because these cities have alternate names now, does not mean we have to change our links accordingly. This is because:

1. The names referred to in the articles were in widespread use in the eras in which the subject(s) lived
2. Redirects are fine and quite a number of major cities have variations in name
3. Who are we to judge the names of these cities when what we are pronouncing is just an English name set by convention - in fact locals often have different names for their cities. I refer you to Names of European cities in different languages
4. Context is everything. When referring to Lithuanian politican Artūras Paulauskas, of course the correct and current term for his birthplace is "Vilnius". However, others like the Vilna Gaon and Rabbi Yisrael Salanter must be referenced under the term Vilna, since in their times that usage (or to be more exact the loshon "Wilno") was the norm
   1. Nesher: "W" in Russian is equal to the "V" sound in English. IZAK 16:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
5. Finally your argument about small locations e.g. Birz and by extension I presume to include Slabodka, Telz, Vlozhin etc doesn't really hold water. We couldn't call it the "Slabodka yeshiva", rather " Vilijampole yeshiva" and we'd have to call the Volozhin yeshiva "Vałožyn". Many thanks, Nesher 19:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• • Hmmm... an average non-Jewish reader need not have to click the name to find out the real location. If you write Dvinsk, you're needlessly Jewifying a non-Jewish name. "Dvinsk (Daugavpils)" achieves both purposes. As to Slabodka, Telz, etc., they're parts of proper names! And why can't we have "The Telz Yeshiva was founded in Telz (now Telsiai), Lithuania...", anyway? What would you say if an arab article said "Al-Aksa mosque is located in Al-Quds"? - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I happen to agree with both User:Nesher in this instance and some of User:Crzrussian points, because over the years there has been a problem that mostly non-Jewish editors from Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania come along and heavy-handedly try to change these names in articles about famous rabbis in particular. These Polish/Russian/Ukrainian/Belarus/Lithuanian "purists" are either unfamiliar with, and don't care about, Jewish history or take delight in trampling the ancient and classical Jewish pronounciations of towns and places in Eastern Europe (which some of them claim is a "Judaization" of their history/culture). There is a solution to this, by noting both or more names, which is fair, the other solution is not merely to do redirects but by simple "dabbing" such as Vilna [[Vilnius|Vilna]] One can satisfy both Jewish and non-Jewish needs in this way. IZAK 10:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

OK. Beyond E.European purism, I think there's a value to total consistency. One name for the place, and everything else at most mentioned alongside. Be comfy in golus, rabbosai - don't let's start telling the umos ho'olam that their cities are named Vilna, Lemberg, Dvinsk etc. - CrazyRussian talk/email 10:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Crz: Sure, is Meir Simcha of Dvinsk now going to become Meir Simcha of Daugavpils? (since Dvinsk redirects to Daugavpils). Are you honestly suggesting that we should now be calling the Vilna Gaon as the Vilnius Gaon instead? Or if tomorrow Shneur Zalman of Liadi must be changed to Shneur Zalman of Liskaya because a Ukrainian editor will come along and tell us that the proper Slavic name for "Liadi" is "Liskaya" or "Lishkipoople" or something like that? Or that Category:Bobov Hasidism should henceforth be renamed to Category:Bobowa Hasidism? etc etc. It's obvious from these examples that Slavic editors cannot impose Slavic language codes and standards on articles that deal with Jewish topics, just as Jewish, Yiddish and Hebraic editors cannot and should not expect to impose what would in actual fact be a quite legitimate Yiddish or Jewish or Hebrew ethnic pronounciations of people and places in articles of a non-Jewish nature. IZAK 16:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

No! That is not what I am suggesting! I am suggesting than article about R' Meir Simcha state preceisely the following:

R' Meir Simcha of Dvinsk was a famous rabbi from Dvinsk (now Daugavpils, Latvia)

instead of

R' Meir Simcha of Dvinsk was a famous rabbi from Dvinsk, Lithuania

Why, is that not obvious from what I have so clearly stated above? Stop panicking, people. Nobody's renaming the holy Ohr Somayach... - CrazyRussian talk/email 18:25, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I suppose it would also be:

Yisrael Mendel Kaplan was born in 1913 in Baranovich, Poland  (now Baranowicze, Belarus)

where the city changed hands between countries, right? Rabbi-m 23:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

It could, though I would prefer then-Poland. - CrazyRussian talk/email 23:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Radin

Where is Radin? I was trying to figure out what Radin is called now, and I couldn't even find which country it's in: Lithuania, Belarus, or Poland? Internet searches led me nowhere. Can anyone clarify? I have to dig up that CD Rom I have, "Catching Sacred Letters". That ought to have it... - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

From what I understand, it was in Lithuania, then it was for a short period under Polish rule before World War Two, I'm almost sure that afterwards it became part of Russia. Which has got me thinking: Should we start an article for Rav Naphtali Trop (the GRANAT), the Rosh Yeshiva of Radin under the CC?--רח"ק | Talk 08:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Found it: [1] - CrazyRougeian talk/email 09:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Chaim Brovender

I think this Rov is NN, and I proposed {{prod}}. Anyone care to look it over and review? - CrazyRougeian talk/email 07:37, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• Czr: Wrong! He is quite well known and respected in Modern Orthodox Judaism circles. The NN tag must go. IZAK 16:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Good - just don't forget to improve the article when you remove the tag. - CrazyRussian talk/email 16:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Done. I have asked User:Shuki if perhaps he can add more. IZAK 16:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

All further discussions about Rabbi Chaim Brovender centralized at Talk:Chaim Brovender#Notability. Thank you. IZAK 03:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

How long

How long are potential candidates for ORBCW supposed to stay on the voting list after not having won yet? Avi Weiss has been listed for a long time, and yet hasn't won a nomination. I think that after a few weeks things should be kicked off, otherwise every submission would be a ORBCW, it would just take some time. --רח"ק | Talk 08:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

citations

I put this on Talk:Aryeh_Levin, then realized it probably belongs here:

we are aiming for: Wikipedia:What is a featured article?

1. • (c) "factually accurate" includes supporting of facts with specific evidence and external citations (see Wikipedia:Verifiability); these include a "References" section where the references are set out, complemented where appropriate by inline citations (see Wikipedia:Citing sources). For articles with footnotes or endnotes, the meta:cite format is strongly encouraged;

So, please, use footnotes. IMHO, when summarizing from another source, like "Tzaddik in our Time," a single Harvard referencing citation at the end of each paragraph is a clear way to cite. the other two methods force you to look at the end of the page or at a balloon for the citation, and since they are all from the same source, all we rally are looking for is page number. Thus, the Harvard system seems clearest. Rabbi-m 03:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Great suggestion. Do it! - CrazyRougeian talk/email 03:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be alot easier if the contributors adopted the practice as they are adding material, rather than backlinking later. Rabbi-m 03:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

to meet wiki standards, I think it shows there was research in putting together an article to keep footnoting, even where all of it comes from a single source. Rabbi-m 05:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

inline use of "Rabbi"

In Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) the Subsequent uses of names says:

After the initial mention of any name, the person may be referred to by surname only.

I see that we tend to say "Reb Aryeh" or "Rabbi Levin." Is that within our "central aim of creating feature-standard articles?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rabbi-m (talk • contribs)

I think we should just write Reb Aryeh, etc. We should write just like Artscroll does. Like the Yated writes. This is specifically about rabbonim, and our 'cultural' customs in these things are slightly different from those applying to general biographies in a secular context. --Daniel575 07:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

We discussed this to death at our very first collaboration. See Talk:Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg. - CrazyRougeian talk/email 10:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Aha, ok, I read the discussion. I am a newbie to wiki editing so I missed it. The consensus seems to be "put in 'Rabbi Levin' and leave it to some later non-frum wiki editor to later take them all out." If so, I will go along with that. (BTW, I was reading some pages on Islam like Tawhid and there are more "may peace and blessing be upon him" than wiki policy would dictate as well.;-) Rabbi-m 03:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Your opinion is sought...

...here: Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_July_13#Category:Jewish_holy_days_to_Category:Jewish_holidays - CrazyRussian talk/email 13:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Also please place this page Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Judaism on your watchlist. This is where we transclude deletion debates that relate to Judaism. - CrazyRussian talk/email 20:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

{{ORBCOTW former}}

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but past collaboration notices are generally placed on an article's talk page rather than the article itself. In addition, every project-related template (with the exception of the FA and Spoken ones) that's attempted to place itself at the top of the article like that has been deleted by a fairly wide margin. In light of this, you might want to consider turning this into a normal banner. Kirill Lokshin 05:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for that information, but there are several mitigating circumstances that must be taken into account here.

First, the scope of this collaboration is fairly specialist and specific in nature, worked upon by a very select group of editors, who really must have knowledge and skills in this area, as well as Orthodox Judaism and its history. In addition, knowledge of the Hebrew language (and maybe even Yiddish) is not a must, but does help. Hence, this is not a mainstream area of knowledge, and as such, placing the past collaboration notices on the article pages has not thus far, and I highly doubt in future either, aroused the ire of many editors, simply due to the relatively small circulation and attention these articles receive.

Second, from the implied meaning of your words (read:"generally"), I detect that this is not an official wikipedia policy, but rather a certain practice that seems to have gained support in various quarters. As mentioned with the exception of the "FA and Spoken" templates, there is absolutely no good reason other than what has become a limited practice to enforce such draconian measures on the entire encyclopedia. Surely, it is in the interest of all to invite creativity, innovation, and I dare say, a measure of boldness and perhaps even unconventionality to wikipedia. This encyclopedia is none the worse for much of that intellectual freedom.

There are many other reasons I can think which I simply don't have time to outline here, but anyone with a defence is welcome to add to my attempts. Many thanks, Nesher 13:55, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the icon in the corner is inapropiate. Jon513 23:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

in use

here is a useful tool I saw for while you are working on an article

{{Inuse|5 minutes}} or {{Inuse||for=|until 3:20 PM EDT 6/26}} in which case you get either of the following:

5 Minutes: {{Inuse|5 Minutes}}

Until 3:20: {{Inuse||for=|until 3:20 PM EDT 6/26}}

Save the page first with this message, then re-edit. Make the changes, and, of course, remove this template reference when you re-save.

Very useful. Thanks! --Daniel575 08:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Born in Jerusalem

We have some work to do. Anyone know of gedolim who were born in Jerusalem? There is not a single rav on that list now, except for R' Eli Yishai (I'm not sure, but I imagine he must have smicha). --Daniel575 12:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• Rabbi Sonnenfeld was born in Jerusalem, as per his wiki page. Yossiea 14:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Never mind, not R' Sonnenfeld, I think it was R' SZA. Yossiea 14:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
    • It's very difficult to find this information indeed. However, it is important that we show in that article what connection (contemporary) Judaism has to Jerusalem. Just as a personal note: like Rav Sonnenfeld, I believe that Jews should be allowed to come and live anywhere in Jerusalem without exceptions. I most definitely feel that we must do everything possible to strengthen our (chareidi) grasp on Jerusalem. We HAVE to ensure a chareidi majority that only chareidi mayors should follow R' Lupolianski. This article, this little 'mission', is part of operation 'emphasize the Jewish character of Jerusalem'. --Daniel575 20:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
      • And after we take over Jerusalem - and rename it Yerushalayim - we can then take over the media; then major financial institutions; and then we will take over the world! Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!! - CrazyRussian talk/email 20:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Central Orthodox Bulletin Board

I am thinking whether we need a joint orthodox bulletin board which all Torah Jews here can put on their watchlists. We have been using this talk page for such things recently. I think a separate page might be a good idea. We could use that for things like my above proposition, for bringing new articles/stubs to peoples attention, as well as for spreading the word on votes, etc. That would eliminate the need to send tens of people messages on their talk pages to ask them to take part in some deletion discussion, such things. I propose that we use the site of Wikipedia:WikiProject Chareidi Judaism for this. We could change the name to Wikipedia:WikiProject Orthodox Judaism, since (even though I personally would not mind) I do not think the modern-orthodox should be excluded from this. Comments? --Daniel575 20:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Go make it, either in Portal-space or WP-space. You can model it on Portal:Russia/Russia-related Wikipedia notice board, a page I watch. Perhaps, as a subpage to WP:JEW... - CrazyRussian talk/email 20:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I think I am going to move Wikipedia:WikiProject Chareidi Judaism to Wikipedia:WikiProject Orthodox Judaism. Agree? --Daniel575 20:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Be bold, buddy. Do whatever you want - don't consult us... - CrazyRussian talk/email 20:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. I like to get the opinion of at least 1 other respected user before I do such things. Especially when it comes to moving pages and especially when it comes to moving [[Wikipedia:...]] things... --Daniel575 20:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Orthodox Judaism

Welcome Wikipedia:WikiProject Orthodox Judaism. Please join if you are interested. Thank you. IZAK 08:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)