Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Trivia sections/Archive 11

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Request for comment

There is a related discussion at WP:Village pump (policy)#Video games and historical figures. Please take a moment to comment. --Izno (talk) 11:41, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

RfC: Expand WP:TRIVIA "in popular culture" guideline

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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There is established consensus that examples from popular culture are "not self-sourcing", that is, "The source(s) cited should not only establish the verifiability of the pop culture reference, but also its significance." MOS:POPCULT "in popular culture" section currently suggests the cleanup of "unencyclopedically trivial" entries, but does not elaborate what they are. The article "In popular culture" does elaborate on this, and makes it clear: "Although some references may be plainly verified by primary sources, this does not demonstrate the significance of the reference" and "[examples] should be reserved for major, in-depth treatments of the subject that have had lasting significance". Should the quoted text from the consensus of the RfC discussion and the "in popular culture" article be added to MOS:POPCULT for clarification of what is "unencyclopedically trivial"? BrightRoundCircle (talk) 15:25, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

• I agree that the clarification is required. However the suggested language is completely inadequate. IMO there are three items to discuss:
  • Banish the term "in popular culture" in favor of "Cultural impact". (if you disagee, I may elaborate.
  • There are two types of cultural impact: immediate and by reference (not the best terms, probably)
    • Examples of immediate impact are film made from book, a monument to article subject, a star named after a pornstar etc., you get the idea. Usually there is no problem to find references for these.
    • Examples of impact by reference: "the gameplay of Fall-off is set in Chernobyl"; "We can see archetypal Jewish mother in Big Bang theory"; "rapper Fuckin' Bro used the word 'fuck' in his latest song", etc. This is the category which causes problems. The correct phrasing must state that the article subject has a significant impact on the design/plot of the listed cultural object. In some cases it is self-evident, and WP:V may be invoked. However in many case independent secondary sources must be demanded. - I wrote 'independent', then decided against it, because references to descriptions by the author of the cultural work are quite OK.

This is what is right off my head, may be more suggestions later. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:00, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

I don't think you can "banish" terms from Wikipedia... Let's focus on explaining what "unencyclopedically trivial" means. Your wording requires original research, asking for inference instead of relying on citations. Original research is exactly what the guideline aims for editors to avoid. The wording of the conclusion of the previous discussion nearly completely eliminate original research, and with the added advice from the "In popular culture" article, everything relies on the references themselves to provide the information, and no inference or "self-verifiability" is required. BrightRoundCircle (talk) 17:59, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes you can "banish". It is called "uniform style" . Quite a few synonyms have been "banished" in favor of section titles "See also", "References" and "External links". Staszek Lem (talk) 18:16, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

My wording does not require original research. I am not asking for inference. My version sets a specific criterion, which must be established following normal wikipedia rules associated with WP:V. If you insist, here is a more nitpicking version: It must be established following the WP:V rules, that the article subject has a significant impact on the design/plot of the listed cultural object. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:16, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

"The article subject has a significant impact on the listed item" is inference, and it's exactly the type of inference that the RfC seeks to eliminate. Instead, "The source(s) cited should not only establish the verifiability of the pop culture reference, but also its significance" puts all of the requirements on the source, with no additional inference. The additional requirements of "major, in-depth treatment" raises the bar on the quality of the source. While not specifically defining "major, in-depth treatment", it does allow removing sources that merely remark about the reference off-handedly. BrightRoundCircle (talk) 18:43, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Are you saying that the source which writes "City of Apopka erected a monument to BrightRoundCircle" is inadmissible in the article BrightRoundCircle? Staszek Lem (talk) 19:42, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

In addition, IMO your are confusing wikipedian's inferences made in article text and inferences made while making decision about article content. The first one is called "original research" , the second is "consensus-building arguments". We do plenty of the latter ones e.g. during AfD. Or whether some minor bio factoid is worth including. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:48, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly what the consensus of the previous discussion says, there are no "self-evident references" or "self-supporting sources". Whether an example is "worth including" or not is to be decided after there is a reference that shows the example's significance, prominence, importance, influence, and so forth. To give an example from the previous discussion, there are countless statues of Abraham Lincoln, but not each one of them is encyclopedic. How do we determine which one is encyclopedic? It's encyclopedic if there are sources that discuss its significance, rather than merely sources that show it exists. In other words: the bold text in the RfC. BrightRoundCircle (talk) 22:45, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

re: "there are countless statues of Lincoln": In such cases we listify them (if there are enthusiasts); see List of communist monuments in Ukraine, List of statues of Vladimir Lenin, List of places named after C. Rajagopalachari, and many more. Whether a particular statue of Abe is encyclopedic is a policy of AfD, not list inclusion. If there are sources which discuss numerocity of Communist statues, then it is a justification of the corresponding list.

Normally a person does not have countless statues, and if one has, this itself is a matter of note, per WP:COMMONSENSE. E.g. a statue at the birthplace of, say, a war hero, is notable, even if the text about it does not explicitly babbles "this is a very important statue bla-bla". And BTW this is the case when wikipedians make judgement of notability; they infer it from secondary sources which describe the object.

In case of statues of Lenin, recent events in Ukraine show why this list is encyclopedic, each and every statue of Lenin is a matter of controversy (I will not dwell upon this here), and such list demonstrates something encyclopedic, even if each particular statue is a standard piece of Communist kitch. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:56, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

P.S. IMO this exchange shows that the guideline must distinguish several categories of cultural impact:

• Tribute (monuments, asteroids, books (fictional, biographical) about the person or his specific feat, etc.
• Influence (film based on a book, opera influenced by a legend, etc.)
• Usage (a novel exploits a peculiarity of the article subject for a significant twist of the plot; a notable memoir of a notable person dwells at lengths upon how another notable person changed his life, etc.)
• etc.

each with their own criteria of inclusion and way of handling. For example the "memoir" case is easily incorporable into article prose. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:07, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

WP:SAL and WP:EMBED are not in the scope of this discussion. If someone wants to make a "list of all <x> of <y>", that's covered under WP:SAL, which adequately covers list criteria (one of which is "Selection criteria (also known as inclusion criteria or membership criteria) should be unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources." Reliable sources, not editor inference... but anyway WP:SAL is not part of this discussion).

Also not in the scope of this discussion is one example ("statue of a war hero"), which is neither WP:SAL nor a collection of "self-sourcing examples".

The scope of this discussion is MOS:POPCULT, in particular incorporating previous consensus into the guideline to make it clear that "self-sourcing" examples are not acceptable. Splitting hairs whether a reference is a tribute or an influence or a usage would result in more original research, not less, especially when these terms may sometimes be used interchangeably. BrightRoundCircle (talk) 19:03, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

I agree with the statement that "self-sourcing examples are not acceptable". I disagree with the suggested phrasing in bold as too restrictive. Also I disagree that "splitting hairs" is bad. Quite often it makes you think more systematically. Many words may be used interchangleably. MOreover, the same item may be both a tribute and influence. This does not change the fact than I see these as different categories, with the last one being most troublesome. However if you are insisting on extremely narrow scope of this RFC, here is my extremely narrow answer:

Strongly disagree: the phrasing of the proposal as given in boldface is too restrictive (and going away, per WP:SHED). Staszek Lem (talk) 19:18, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Despite WP:SHED, I still think this discussion is productive despite that, or because, we disagree. First, we noted that we're not talking about WP:SAL. Second, we saw that even WP:SAL requires reliable sources, not the inference of the editors, which is what this RfC is attempting to apply to MOS:POPCULT, in addition to a more specific requirement of significance. Third, instead of making categories upon categories each with its own rules, we can apply the same exclusion standards to all types of tributes, influences, usages, references, etc. BrightRoundCircle (talk) 19:46, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

(from behind the shed :-) We agree on most points, with the single exception: treatment of the term "significance". You missed my point that "significance" is almost always "inference of the editors" . It is not that often reliable source say something like "The opera Can-Can-Me (opera) was significant for the ballet Can-Can-Me (ballet) because Can-Can-Me (ballet) was based on Can-Can-Me (opera)". The source will simply say "Can-Can-Me (ballet) was based Can-Can-Me (opera)" My common sense suggests that the latter simple statement of fact is sufficient for inclusion into "POPCULT", while it seems that you will be against because it was an inference of significance on my side. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:07, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

I see your point. For a working definition, let's assume any discussion of the example within the article's context makes it significant. For example, there are many sources that discuss the work How a Mosquito Operates. However, in order to include it as an example in the article arthropods in film, there should be a source (and it should be referenced) that discusses How a Mosquito Operates within the context of "arthropods in film". Such a source exists - Encyclopedia of Insects, chapter Insects in movies.

So maybe instead of "significant" the guideline should say "discussed in the context of the topic of the article": Sources cited should not only establish the verifiability of the example, but also discuss it in the context of the topic of the Wikipedia article that includes the example. Brief mentions, such as mentions in lists and listicles, are not discussions." This way editors do not have to make a judgement call about what's "significant", and sources that make a mention in passing are excluded, and sources that discuss the example outside of the context of the article are excluded too. Since this new interpretation of "significant" is not part of an existing consensus, I guess this RfC needs a lot more participation now to determine a new consensus. BrightRoundCircle (talk) 14:42, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Trivia SECTIONS vs trivial CONTENT?

Is this policy only about sections, or does it also cover content? At times I run into editors who reject properly sourced content because they consider it trivial. Does this policy cover that aspect as well, or are there other policies which apply? -- BullRangifer (talk) 02:32, 21 May 2017 (UTC)