Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Minneapolis/archive1

SG review

Reviewing this version. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:10, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, thank you a thousand times for all your work. You have uncovered some uncited history. I ordered two books and hope to have a cited history done in the next week. First they have to get here. Sorry for the delay. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:56, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

SusanLesch Not to worry; there is no rush at FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:34, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your note. Everything's cited now but I still have a row to hoe with your review. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:05, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

OK, let me know when it's time for me to re-engage. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:17, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Will do. I'm sorry this will take more time. Wikipedia needs more Minnesota editors. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:03, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Dakota natives, city founded

• The first sentence is material that is not contained in the next citation, and how do we know they were the "sole" occupants?

Good catch. Corrected.

• The next two sentences are also uncited.

Corrected. Somehow I skipped over the fur trade. Now that's clear.

• In 1805 Zebulon Pike negotiated with the Dakota for 100,000 acres of land where present-day Minneapolis resides in the first Treaty of St. Peters with the agreement a military fort could be built.

  present-day Minnesota does not reside in the first Treaty of St. Peters -->

  Zebulon Pike negotiated with the Dakota in the 1805 first Treaty of St. Peters for a 100,000 acres of land, with the agreement a military fort could be built there; present-day Minneapolis resides on that land.

Thank you, replaced. Added questionable in a footnote.

• 100,000 acres needs a {{convert}}

Yes, convert added (to 9 square miles).

• In 1819, the US Army built Fort Snelling at the southern edge of present-day Minneapolis ... here, we are repeating present-day Minneapolis only one sentence later; the whole thing needs better integration from the start.

  Zebulon Pike negotiated with the Dakota in the 1805 first Treaty of St. Peters for a 100,000 acres of land, with the agreement a military fort could be built there; in 1819, the US Army built Fort Snelling on that land at the southern edge of present-day Minneapolis, to direct Native American trade away from British-Canadian traders, and to deter warring between the Dakota and Ojibwe in northern Minnesota.

  The mention of the Ojibwe here is part of why I question the "sole" in the first sentence. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:23, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

  Revising. Well done, SandyGeorgia.

• The US government pressed the Dakota to sell their land ... More of their land? Different land than the Fort Snelling land ? How much more land? Where in relation to Minneapolis and Snelling ... As it reads now, it implies they never sold the Fort Snelling land-- is that the case? I'm confused.

The Mississippi divides the region. First they sold the east side, then the west. Your point is clarified now.

• were negotiated by corrupt officials ... corrupt officials of/from (what?)

Added "Minnesota". Added Alexander Ramsey at two points.

• their terms were rarely honored --> rarely honored by whom?

Added "US government". Some discussion of Congress's ratification added.

• During the American Civil War, officials plundered annuities promised ... what officials (Minnesota, local, US government, a certain bureau)??

You're right, that's overstated. Reworded the sentence.

• The Dakota were interned and exiled from Minnesota --> this is Minnesota-wide and the Dakota War centers on Southern Minnesota ... can we add a clause to somehow relate this to Minneapolis. How can we relate the whole Dakota War/expulsion which was more related to southwestern Minnesota back to Minnapolis Dakotans?

Difficult assignment but this proved to be possible! Greatly improved.

• the toll bridge cost pedestrians three cents .. should have an inflation equivalent for today. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:38, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, added.

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Would you please check over only this section on the Dakota people and city founding? Sorry this took so long. Because of the uncited statements you found, I concentrated on criterion 1c, well-researched (now we have 60 citations and footnotes). See what you think. Hope this section makes a good first impression. Moving on to other sections until I hear from you. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:55, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Susan, I don't think I'll be able to get to this until Friday, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:47, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. With some luck this will be done on Friday. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:52, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Lumber, waterpower, and flour milling

• Water power from St. Anthony's Falls led to the growth of the lumber and flour milling industies in Minneapolis and Minnesota; why isn't the section heading more logical, as in, Water power, lumber and flower milling? I can't decipher why the two industries would straddle the driver. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:41, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Section renamed.

• Towns built in western Minnesota with Minneapolis lumber shipped their wheat back to the city for milling.[43] -->

  Towns built in western Minnesota with lumber from Minneapolis sawmills shipped their wheat back to the city for milling.[43]

Done.

• Growing use of steam power freed lumbermen and their sawmills from the falls. --> ??? -->

  Growing use of steam power freed lumbermen and their sawmills from dependence on the falls.

Done.

• Minneapolis riverfront describes the use of water power in ... well into the section, we find the first link to water power (which differs from the section heading, that uses the word as one); can the link be worked in earlier, and the heading should be water power as in the body.

Corrected placement. (The quotation has one word, but usage suggests two words are preferable. Kept two in the heading.)

• 1893, fire spread from Nicollet Island to Boom Island to northeast Minneapolis where the Grain Belt Brewery stopped it. --> How does a brewery (building) stop a fire (ie, did people stop the fire, what about the brewery stopped the fire?)

Copyedited to include the wind.

• valuable ($0.50 profit per barrel in 1871, increased to $4.50 in 1874), --> give at least one inflation equivalent in today's dollars.

Done.

• Mention of Washburn-Crosby with no definition of who or what that is. One discovers a link, Washburn Crosby Company, that redirects to General Mills. Define Washburn-Crosby as whatever it is -- a precursor to General Mills? A company later acquired by General Mills? We have Washburn in the article, but no Crosby, and no idea what Washburn-Crosby is.

Mentioned John Crosby and explained Washburn-Crosby became General Mills.

• Decades of soil exhaustion, stem rust, and changes in freight tariffs combined to quash the city's flour industry. ... Is that from Lass 238? Or is it a combo summary of multiple sources?

It's all from the same page in Lass. Added one citation.

• Northern States Power bought the united mill companies in 1923, ... similar to the Washburn-Crosy situation, what are the "united mill companies"? Undefined at this point ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:12, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I took the corner too fast. Copyedited and added a sentence.

Done but I would appreciate it if you can read through this section. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:36, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Critical industry

• Having read this section, I cannot decipher what the critical industry is or why this section has this as a heading. It looks like it may want to be something like "Other industries develop". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:13, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Good idea. Renamed.

• Minneapolis Star humorist Don Morrison wrote that the city doubled, tripled, then quadrupled its population every decade, and in 1922, the city's assessed property value was $266 million, "nearly 10 times the price paid for the entire midcontinent in the Louisiana Purchase."[81] After the milling era waned, a "modern, major city"[81] surfaced in 1900, attracted skilled workers,[82] and learned from the university's Institute of Technology.[83]

  The humor aspect is lost on me; what am I missing?

"Is this funny?" from Chat GPT 3.5
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The humor in this statement lies in the exaggeration of Minneapolis's population growth and property value, creating a playful and absurd comparison to the Louisiana Purchase. The Louisiana Purchase was a significant historical event in which the United States acquired a vast territory from France in 1803. By suggesting that Minneapolis's assessed property value in 1922 was nearly 10 times the price paid for the entire midcontinent in the Louisiana Purchase, the humorist is using hyperbole to emphasize the city's perceived rapid and extravagant development. Whether someone finds it funny or not is subjective, but it seems to be crafted as a witty and exaggerated commentary on Minneapolis's growth.

"Why is this funny?" from Gemini 1.0
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
There are several reasons why the excerpt about Minneapolis's rapid growth and property value might be considered funny: Absurdity: The statement that the city doubled, tripled, then quadrupled its population every decade is inherently absurd. This kind of exponential growth is almost impossible and defies logic. This exaggeration adds a humorous element to the text. Hyperbole: Comparing the city's property value to the price of the Louisiana Purchase is a massive overstatement and uses hyperbole for comedic effect. It highlights the dramatic increase in wealth and emphasizes the city's perceived importance. Juxtaposition: The contrast between the historical event of the Louisiana Purchase and the modern city of Minneapolis creates a humorous incongruity. It suggests that Minneapolis, through its rapid development, has become economically comparable to a vast region of land acquired in a major historical transaction. Unexpected comparison: The seemingly unrelated comparison of population growth to land purchase adds a layer of surprise and absurdity to the humor. This unexpected connection makes the statement more memorable and impactful. Historical context: Considering the timeframe (1922), the rapid development of Minneapolis could be seen as a novelty and a source of local pride. This context adds a layer of nostalgia and historical charm to the humor. Audience: The humor is also likely to resonate more with readers familiar with the history and culture of Minneapolis. The shared understanding of the city's growth and local pride enhances the comedic effect. It's important to note that humor is subjective, and what one person finds funny, another may not. However, the excerpt utilizes several techniques commonly found in humor, making it likely to be perceived as funny by many readers.

I will remove it if you wish but IMO the article will suffer.

• How does a city (vs. people) "learn" from an Institute? What did it/they learn?

  If "modern, major city" can't be re-phrased, the quote should be attributed ... is this what is meant ... After the milling era waned, the 1900 beginnings of a modern city attracted skilled workers who learned at the university's Institute of Technology ?????

† "modern, major city" are Morrison's words in the same paragraph. And they're cited so I hope all right. By 1900 (the year, incidentally, that John Stevens died) Minneapolis had become a modern, major city. In a scant 50 years, its population had increased tenfold to more than 200,000, doubling, tripling and quadrupling every decade; its assessed property valuation in 1922 had mounted to $26,000,000--nearly ten times the price paid for the entire midcontinent in the Louisiana Purchase.

† "learned" might have to change. Stipanovich is cited with loc, but maybe not well enough: Thus while Minneapolis began to lose jobs in the mills, it began to acquire other jobs in management, financial administration, advertising, market research, product research and design, and other mid-level management and administrative positions. The effect was to upgrade the workforce... and The university's role became more and more important as the 20th century rolled along.... He says on the next page, The University of Minnesota in Minneapolis also played a major role as its specialists contributed invaluable services to a variety of activities, including the Manhattan nuclear project, medicinal advances, military nutrition, and the development of new technology for weapons systems. (Then he describes the individual researchers/professors.) I think Stipanovich's intent was to say that large entities learned from the U, not only skilled workers.

Reworded that sentence to say the city depended on the university's expertise.

• In 1888, a businessman found that itchy wool underwear could be covered in silk. His Minneapolis textile factory lasted a century known as Munsingwear, today as Perry Ellis,[85] and in 1923, was the world's largest manufacturer of underwear.[86]

  Was that businessman George D. Munsing ?

  the century was not known as Munsingwear.

  is this what is meant ???

  In 1888, businessman George D. Munsing found that itchy wool underwear could be covered in silk. His Minneapolis textile business—known then as Munsingwear, today as Perry Ellis—lasted a century[85] and in 1923, was the world's largest manufacturer of underwear.

Yes, thank you. Munsing's name is now in.

• ] In 1922, an inventor founded Onan Corporation near downtown Minneapolis[87] that built and sold generators.[88] Prior to a Cummins buyout in 1986,[88] Onan brought electricity to midwestern markets before power lines covered the country, and supplied about half the generator sets the US military used during World War II ... same as above ...

  Is this businessman Cummins Onan ??

  downtown Minneapolis did not build and sell generators

  Is this what is meant ?

  In 1922, inventor Cummins Onan founded Onan Corporation (bought by Cummins in 1986), that built and sold generators in Minneapolis. Onan brought electricity to midwestern markets before power lines covered the country, and supplied about half the generator sets the US military used during World War II. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:32, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, that's better. (Cummins Onan is a brand name, not the inventor.)

• Minneapolis-Honeywell built a south Minneapolis campus where their experience controlling indoor temperature earned them contracts controlling military servomechanisms like the secret Norden bombsight and the C-1 autopilot.

  controlling ... controlling ... vary wording.

Good point. I chose "regulate".

• what is a "servomechanism"? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:37, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Over my pay grade but Britannica says, "automatic device used to correct the performance of a mechanism by means of an error-sensing feedback".

Almost done (except one †). -SusanLesch (talk) 17:22, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Social tensions

• Should the section heading be singular? WP:MSH references article titles, and WP:SINGULAR says not to plural.

Right, thank you.

• Historian Iric Nathanson writes that over the course of the 20th century, "Minnesota's major city was able to shed a stultifying social order that inhibited change and entrenched privilege."[104] In many ways, the 20th century was a difficult time of bigotry and malfeasance, beginning with four decades of corruption,[105] followed by attempts to overcome them.

Omitted the quote.

• Corruption by whom:

  The first two sentences contradict each other, making the final clause then appear as original research. Is this the way to fix that (that is, is this what the passage means to say)?

  According to (someone), in many ways, the 20th century in Minneapolis was a difficult time of bigotry and malfeasance, beginning with four decades of corruption [by whom].[105] Historian Iric Nathanson writes that the city "was able to shed a stultifying social order that inhibited change and entrenched privilege" during the 20th century.[104] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:00, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Instead I omitted the last clause of second sentence.

• How do jump from Ames to the KKK in the same para; there's no transition, what's the connection? How does the rest of that paragraph relate to the topic sentence about a Maternity Hospital? Is the paragraph about crime or health?

Agree the para is an aggregation of thoughts. With the better topic sentence it should fly. See what you think now.

• Is the four decades of corruption in the first paragraph the same as the four decades mentioned in the third paragraph? If so, the flow needs better merging.

Better without the quote from Nathanson, and without the maternity hospital.

• The paragraph beginning with "With a Black population ... " gets a bit mangled wrt history. In 1948, the US Supreme Court held that racially restricted covenants were not enforceable. Although the chilling effects may have lingered, it is unclear what the last sentence (in 2021 the city gave residents a means to discharge them) means, since they were unenforceable anyway. What exactly changed in 2021 relative to the 1948 Supreme Court decision? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:21, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Paragraph copyedited.

Record keepers for real estate titles have to be pack rats. Every word is carried forward, and every change must be agreed to by all living parties. (Once a lawyer served me papers for a house I owned in Saint Paul just to change one sentence.) In 2021, the city gave homeowners a means to formally disavow covenants that I imagine the pack rats still had in writing. I've never seen a resulting deed but trust that Mapping Prejudice has the wording solved.

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:29, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Structural racism

I made these changes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:43, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Neighborhoods

• Something is off with the puncutation here: I don't know how to fix it since I can't tell what the sentence wants to say (is there a missing dash after neighborhoods?) :

  Reflected in the program's policy goals in 1990—that citizens know best the priorities of their own neighborhoods, the city set up the Neighborhood Revitalization Program (NRP), in which every one of the city's eighty-some neighborhoods participated.[177]

Off was right, thank you.

• What expired in 2011? A UN Habitat adaptation or the actual program? but it expired in 2011 ... the "but" doesn't work ... they UN Habitat changed their mind that it was a good program because it had expired ??? I suspect this is what the sentences want to say, but unsure:

  Funded for 20 years with $400 million tax increment financing (TIF), the program caught the eye of UN-Habitat who considered it an example of best practices. The program expired in 2011 and was replaced (when ?) by The Neighborhoods 2020 program; the Neighborhood and Community Relations department took its place (when?) and was funded by city revenue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:53, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Fixed.

• In his budget proposal for 2024, the mayor ... this is the first mention of a mayor; he should be named here.

I'll remember this if Mayor Frey is removed from the lead.

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Demographics

• In 1910, there were approximately 2,500 Black residents, and by 1930, Minneapolis had some of the most literate Black residents in the nation.[235][236] ... WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims require multiple high quality sources. This claim has two pages from the same source, a local survey. And it's not a high-quality source: it's the Minnesota Historical Society. Without better sourcing, this claim should go-- we can't compare Minnesota to the entire nation with a local survey. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:14, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

No, that is sourced to David Taylor, who contributed a chapter in They Chose Minnesota. That is a high quality source.

The sentence now has four citations with quotes. One of them is for Minnesota overall but gives the reader the correct picture.

It took me a while to see the problem was my wording. Fixed.

• As of 2019, over 20,000 Somalis reside in Minneapolis.[243] ... I am surprised there is not a newer than 2019 number on this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:17, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, best I could do. Nobody measures Minneapolis when they can measure Minnesota, even the Star Tribune. The US Census tells me only that Hennepin County has 38,588 (October 2023).

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:41, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Religion

• St. Mary's Orthodox Cathedral was founded in 1887; it opened a missionary school and created the first Russian Orthodox seminary in the US.[261] --> this kind of claim cannot be cited to self, needs an independent source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Added another source and reduced the claim. The first in US could have been in Sitka, Alaska, while it was a territory; I don't have a date.

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:22, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Economy

• I don't think we need this sentence, not unique to Minnesota: Among the district's responsibilities are to supervise and examine member banks, examine financial institutions, lend to depository institutions, distribute currency and coin, clear checks, operate Fedwire, and serve as a bank for the US Treasury.[276]

Omitted.

• The entire para on a Minnesota survey beginning with "The state department of Employment and Economic Development measured the metro area's quality of life compared to 44 metro areas in the US." is hard to understand (high-low vs good-bad), and it is primary sourced. I don't think a MN survey or MN relative to the rest of the country-- which no secondary sourcing-- should be in the article at all. To compare to the rest of the country it should have an independent source and a secondary source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Entire paragraph omitted. It was there by request to support the lead saying "Despite its well-regarded quality of life...". Is the Atlantic citation enough?

Question. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Visual arts

• Cited to self, and the Walker has its own article; this is not needed here. In 2023, the Walker said that together with the Minneapolis Sculpture Garden across the street, it received more than 700,000 visitors each year.[288]

Omitted.

• Ditto; has its own article, and cited to self: Perhaps reflecting the ambitions of the founders, competition winner McKim, Mead & White designed a complex seven times the size of what opened in 1915.[291]

No, it's cited to the Society of Architectural Historians. Do you still want it out?

Question. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Sports

• Can't cite this sort of claim to self: In the 2010s, the Lynx were the most-successful sports team in the city

Source replaced with The Athletic.

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Parks and recreation

• In the bestselling and often-parodied 19th-century epic poem The Song of Hiawatha, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow named Hiawatha's wife Minnehaha for the Minneapolis waterfall.[407] --> First, I find no other source that makes this claim. Second, this kind of claim should have a better source than a small regional museum. Third, I'm not convinced the source supports the text; the source says they share a name. I suggest removing this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:05, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

OK. I think the section is better without 1) Longfellow, and 2) two claims to first and second. Omitted them all.

• Has its own article, not needed here (and things like this only create an ongoing need for maintenance): Between 5,000 and 10,000 people per year visited the falls before 1889. Visitors increased to about that many per day after Minnehaha became a park.[408] In 2017, the park received over two million visitors.[409]

Thank you. Omitted.

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Government

• City Council has its own article; these (minor level) appointments will change often and don't need to be in this article: Seven political newcomers joined the council in 2022 ... Andrea Jenkins was unanimously elected as the president of the city council in 2022.[419]

Agreed, omitted.

• Excess detail that will require constant updating and is not needed here: The organization had responded to more than three thousand 911 calls as of September 2022 and was proposed to continue through the 2023–2024 budget year.[429]

Extra detail omitted. (All we can say today is that city department is changing leaders, and the city council still needs to make a decision on Canopy.)

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:57, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Health care

• This seems to be excess detail, self-cited, and requiring ongoing maintenance, but we don't seem to have an article to move this to, so ... I guess it stays? In 2022, the Hennepin Healthcare safety net[531] counted 626,000 in-person and 50,586 virtual clinic visits, and 87,731 emergency room visits.[533]

I removed it because of the future maintenance needs you point out. We have an article about the hospital.

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:57, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Done! Susanlesch I know this looks daunting, but work now saves work later. Once the article passes FAR, it's likely to be re-run at WP:TFA. Best regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:01, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

dying

tfa blurb

SusanLesch, below is my first attempt at a draft for the tfa blurb. note that none of this is set in stone. please feel free to mention any errors i have made, anything you think should be reworded, what you think should be included but was left out, or what you think doesn't really merit a mention. you are also welcome to edit the draft directly.

Downtown Minneapolis and the Mississippi River

Minneapolis, nicknamed the "City of Lakes", is the US state of Minnesota's most populous city. Along with the adjoining state capital Saint Paul, Minneapolis is part of the Twin Cities metropolitan area, home to 3.69 million people. The site was originally inhabited by the Dakota. Europeans settled along the Mississippi River's only natural waterfall, which provided power for industrial activity. During the 19th century, the city was the lumber and flour milling capital of the world. It is the birthplace of General Mills, Pillsbury, and Target. Many of the city's public parks are connected by the Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway. Biking and walking trails run through the Mississippi National River and Recreation Area, and around several lakes and Minnehaha Falls. The city is home to the University of Minnesota's main campus, the Minneapolis Institute of Art, and four professional sports teams. Public transport is provided by Metro Transit, and an international airport serves the region. (Full article...)

there are three additional points i think i should mention.

• there is a limit of 1025 characters for tfa blurbs with images. this draft is currently deliberately a bit longer than that, at 1045 characters, because i think that the list of five recreation areas may be a bit long for the blurb, but i wasn't sure what i should remove.
• i didn't mention the nightclub because i believe that other editors tend to prefer that commercial interests not be mentioned in tfa blurbs. however, i kept the mention of the three brands to quickly illustrate the city's impact on u.s. industry.
• i'm admittedly not sure if the image was actually taken from the mississippi river. the infobox caption states so, but the image description states that it is a "View of the Minneapolis Skyline and the Mississippi River from North Minneapolis", which is why the caption i used here differs slightly from that in the infobox.

dying (talk) 22:59, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Dying, this looks wonderful. I'd suggest omitting the whole sentence "Biking and walking trails run through the Mississippi National River and Recreation Area, Lake of the Isles, Bde Maka Ska, Lake Harriet, and Minnehaha Falls." Will that bring you close to your character limit? The only other edit is U.S. is US in this article (which I did in place). Thank you very much. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:26, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

One exception in this article is U.S. Bank. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:53, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Down to 1,004 characters. Dying, can you complete the lead in place please? Sandy has been away and it would be nice to be done when she gets back. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:40, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

HF

• "the Dakota (also known as the Sioux)" - I don't think this is good phrasing. This phrasing implies the two groups are equivalent, but aren't the Lakota considered part of the Sioux as well?

• Good catch. Fixed to say known as Sioux (not known as the Sioux) which is more accurate.

• Changed this again to "a group of the Sioux" and moved "also known as" to Ojibwe.

• CJLippert, can you help us word a sentence in the Minneapolis article? Hog Farm pointed out an error in an earlier version. I have searched the web for the correct way to say this: the Dakota (one tribe of the Sioux nation) and the Ojibwe (also known as Chippewa, one tribe of the Anishinaabe nations). (The words tribe, group, band, nation are interchangeable some places and not others.) Thank you in advance for your help. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Rewritten now, so no worries, CJLippert. Oncamera made some edits and told us about WP:Indigenous. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:25, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

• "and Minnesota "patent" flour was recognized at the time as the best in the world" - the source uses "finest bread flour"; I'd hew a bit closer to the source as the intention may have been to indicate that it was the best for breadmaking, but not necessarily the best of all types of flour

• Changed to "best bread flour".

• "The city reverted to its 2030 plan" - the 2030 plan in mentioned here but never seems to be explained unless I'm missing where the explanation is

• My bad. "Decennial plan" is mentioned once later, but wasn't defined here. Changed to "The city reverted to its previous decennial plan for 2030." (I hope having decennial plans doesn't need any more explanation.)

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:34, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Ready for the demographis section, will continue later. Hog Farm _Talk 00:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

• " and in 2015, it became the country's 46th largest city" - is this still true, and if so would it be more relevant to provide a ranking as of a more recent year?

• Reworded. I would like to avoid perennial updates. At least we have US Census figures.

• "Top 2023 publicly traded Minneapolis companies" - is Thrivent actually publicly traded though?

• Fixed my copy/paste error (from Boston).

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:41, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Ready for parks and recreation; more to come. Hog Farm _Talk 23:45, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

• "As of fall 2023, every Minneapolis public school student receives one free breakfast and one free lunch each school day." - source link is dead and not retrievable on the Internet Archive Wayback Machine

• Replaced source.

• "Other papers are Southwest Voices,[534] Streets.mn,[535]" - I think this came up earlier in the FAR but we do need an independent source to verify the significance of these. This applies to several other items in this section as well

• Yes, earlier you wrote an independent source noting its existence; I've found that independent RS sourcing is usually a good test as to if mentioning something is due weight or not. These two are now sourced to reliable sources with Wikipedia articles.
• Question Does this section look all right to you now? I removed the extra citations for publications that have a Wikipedia article. Cited everybody else, and removed a couple that now are published in Saint Paul.

• Looking better - but now there's no source at all for Racket, MinnPost, or Minnesota Daily, and Rain Taxi doesn't seem to be supported by the referencing either. I'm less concerned about notability on those because they are blue links, but we do need a source tying them to Minneapolis somehow. Hog Farm _Talk 17:21, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

• Done. Restored everybody's citations. Thanks again, Hog Farm. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:10, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

• Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:54, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I think that's all from me; this has come a long ways. Hog Farm _Talk 22:23, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Delays

Folks, this FAR has been delayed for years, then postponed, over and over, and now my time is under threat. Sock protection is removed. Sandy and I entertained that sockpuppet farm (archive) for a year before an admin finally protected the page. Beseeching you guys (Z1720, Hog Farm, Buidhe, George Ho, who else is there?) to hurry up if you possibly can. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, for context. My first discussion of FAR was about 3 1/2 years ago, and Sandy first pinged you guys pre-FAR a year ago. -16:24, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I hope to be able to finish my review today or tomorrow. Hog Farm _Talk 16:36, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you much. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:59, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm curious if you other guys had ever been "beseeched" before. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:36, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Minneapolis has an RfC

Minneapolis has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:41, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

• This RfC closed and my follow up appeared to satisfy our critic. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

FFFeedback

1. The first sentence of §Primary and secondary should be broken up. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:33, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
   • The sentence is now two. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
2. "the first educational institution in Minneapolis": maybe "in the Minneapolis area"? Based on the chronology in the article, this predates the town. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:33, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
   • Yes, fixed. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
3. "When more settlers ...": the language in this and the following sentence is a bit stilted. I'd suggest a pattern like "This thing happened, and by year, the numbers reached X." Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:33, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
   • Changed to "After this thing happened, the numbers reached X by year." -SusanLesch (talk) 16:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
4. "Contract Alternative Schools" is jargon. Explain or paraphrase. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:33, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
   • Expanded that sentence. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
5. "The restructured mayor's role created": comes off oddly. Maybe "After the mayoral reform, Frey created"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
   • Used your wording, thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
6. I wouldn't suggest crediting "City Attorney" as the author of "Officer Conduct Payout Amounts by Year". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
   • What do you suggest? The table is labeled "Data source: City Attorney's Office". It's possible to say the publisher (City of Minneapolis) is the author. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

     I'm seeing that more as a citation than a declaration of authorship. I don't think an authorship parameter is needed on this one, but I wouldn't object to "City of Minneapolis". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

     "City of Minneapolis" it is. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

7. "ten Dakota students": I had changed to "10", thinking this was meant to be a comparable number to the student counts later in the paragraph. Think otherwise? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
   • Restored your choice. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:14, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
8. In §Parks and recreation, "crowning achievement": can this be attributed in-text, or paraphrased? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
   • Changed to masterpiece. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
9. The canoe image alt text: I'm not sure everyone paddling is a woman. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
   • You're right, one guy might be involved. Shortened the alt per your comment below. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
10. "Nadenicek and Neckar add": can we get full names, and possibly a brief intro of their roles here? This may move earlier if their first quote is attributed. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Added first names and their occupation (professor). -SusanLesch (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
11. "owns the city's canopy of trees" is a bit misleading. Tweak to match the source a bit more closely? If kept, no comma after "trees". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    • I fail to see why that is misleading. If anything, it's understated. The park board's involvement began in 1887 and continues to the present. I switched the ref to a different quote from the same book. Maybe you'll like this one better. (Incidentally, not every city has a canopy of trees lining its streets.) -SusanLesch (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

      The change you made is good, but I'd suggest dropping canopy. I think you're using it to evocatively describe the collection of trees, but it could imply some odd arrangement where the board is responsible just for the top layer. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:44, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

      I understand your comment but I think the term canopy (biology) is becoming better known as people realize its value (in the news today in New York). Pardon my reticence to remove it. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:24, 18 July 2024 (UTC) P.S. I added a wikilink. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:31, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

      It's exactly that meaning that creates the problem I'm seeing, and linking it worsens the issue. The board is responsible for all street trees, which means we can't rule out responsibility for understory trees, which aren't part of the canopy layer, or the non-canopy parts of tall trees, including growth and bark in the understory and roots at the floor layer. When Smith says "responsible for planting", I can't help but see saplings and young trees that are years or decades away from being part of the canopy. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:43, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

      Dropped the word canopy. Evidently we see trees differently. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:14, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

      Especially ironic given the last article we worked on together! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:16, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

      Where I learned you are the best Wikipedia editor I have ever seen! -SusanLesch (talk) 12:58, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

12. Since the sentence about Theodore Wirth Park starts with info about the board's ownership of property outside of the city, it's probably worth being clear that the park does in fact lie partially within city limits (I think?). Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Reworded, thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
13. "The city's Chain of Lakes ...": suggest breaking this sentence up. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Sentence is now two and an error was fixed.-SusanLesch (talk) 22:24, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
14. Since the sentence about the Minneapolis Aquatennial is the only one about an event in its paragraph, could it be moved to the end? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Moved. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
15. "city's other waterfall": can we introduce Minnehaha Falls right away? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Done. It tied in with Horace Cleveland. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
16. "The 53-foot (16 m) waterfall Minnehaha Falls is one of Minnesota's first state parks." This makes it seem like the park and the falls are coterminous. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Good call. Fixed. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
17. "between December and March": months not mentioned in the source's live version or archived version. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Removed. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
18. Can the last sentence of §Parks and recreation be updated? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
19. Overall, I'd say most of the image alt texts are overlong. See MOS:ALT#How to write alternative text for guidance, starting with "Alternative text should be short". I can give more specific feedback if desired. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Thank you for the correction and pointer. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
20. "The stadium, which was called": can this get in-text attribution? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:16, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:07, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
21. "1,750,000-square-foot": source says 1.7 million. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:16, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Fixed. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:07, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
22. "Fifteen of the system's 41 branches": another comparable numeral issue. "forty-one" is an option; you'll need to re-arrange if you want to switch both to numerals. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:52, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Used "forty-one" because the next sentence starts with "seven". -SusanLesch (talk) 22:34, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
23. I think most of the museums are either well-explained or have self-explanatory names. Minnehaha Depot is the exception. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:52, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Expanded the depot a bit. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:34, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
24. The running prose ampersand in "Symphonies Nos. 1 & 4" is odd, though it's in the name of the album. Could use the name of the album in italics or rephrase with something like "their recording of Sibelius's first and fourth symphonies". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:52, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Used your suggestion, thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:34, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
25. "center of music in the '80s": WP:HEADLINES are not reliable. Maybe the body of the source, or another source, has something similar to say about the city's important music scene? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:50, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Done and added two more sources. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:27, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Just a note, Firefangledfeathers, that in two weeks I will be away from my books for the rest of August. (I remember saying that a year ago in this FAR.) -SusanLesch (talk) 21:04, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. Should have more items for you later tonight. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 21:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

References

FFFeedback, continued

1. I'm unclear on what this means: "Perhaps reflecting the ambitions of the founders, competition winner McKim, Mead & White designed a complex seven times the size of what opened in 1915." Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:12, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
   • Rewrote the paragraph. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:08, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
     • Looks great! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:11, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
       • Thank you kindly. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:50, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
2. In the table headings in §Economy, can both citations come after 2023? Or some reason for the differing treatment? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:12, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
   • Fixed. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:08, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
3. "according to the most recent Pew Research Center religious survey in 2014": just "according to a Pew Research Center religious survey in 2014" will be a more lasting statement. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:12, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
   • Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:08, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
4. "23 percent non-religious population": I wonder if it should be the hyphenated "23-percent ...". Either way, should probably be consistent with "a sixteen-percent increase over the previous year", and you may want to check other adjectival "X percent" terms elsewhere. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:12, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
   • Three hyphenations added. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:08, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
5. "a Hindu temple near the university": U of M? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:11, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
   • Fixed. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:50, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
6. "the first Shi'a Muslim family from Uganda": first Shi'a, or first Shi'a specifically from Uganda? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:11, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
   • First Shi'a in the metro area. Simplified. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:50, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
7. Some section hatnotes consider "X in Minnesota" articles to be the "main article", while some are considered "see also" links. Is there a rhyme or reason? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:11, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
   • Still thinking. Consulted WP:SUMMARYHATNOTE, WP:HATNOTERULES, and For use in sections. Looked at two city FAs, Cleveland and Boston. Found no hard and fast rules to apply yet. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:50, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
   • Arrived at this somewhat arbitrary set. Used {{Main}} when linking from a summary to a main article per WP:HATNOTERULES. Used {{further}} when linking from summary to related article that mentions Minneapolis or Minnesota. Except two {{See also}} where the link is to a related but different topic (MN state system in §Colleges and universities, and COVID in §Health care). -SusanLesch (talk) 15:17, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
8. I think §Structural racism would be a stronger section without the sentence "Some historians and commentators have said White Minneapolitans used discrimination based on race against the city's non-White residents." Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:11, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
   • Omitted. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:50, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
9. "The foundation laid by ...": the inclusion in this list of "access to green spaces, trees and parks" makes it a complex list. Consider using semicolons to separate the items or simplifying that one item to just "green spaces". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:11, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
   • You're right, thanks. "Green spaces" is fine. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:50, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
10. "identified as Hispanic and Latinos": maybe "Hispanic or Latino"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:09, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Changed to "or". (Links to an article that uses "and".) -SusanLesch (talk) 22:10, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
11. "while African Americans comprised approximately 20 percent ..." this fact is redundant to info mentioned earlier, and the later fact about home ownership rates does not depend on it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:09, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Omitted, thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:10, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
12. Can a row for "American Indian and Alaska Native alone" be included in the Racial and ethnic composition table? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:09, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Very good suggestion! I added that and asked a demographics specialist to double check my work. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:10, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

    • I'll work on this until I hear from you. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:22, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
      • Looks like work and talk page discussion are ongoing. I'd appreciate a note here once that seems concluded. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
        • Done. Table is done to the best of my ability. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:30, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

13. "glacial River Warren": maybe "Glacial River Warren"? Linked article handles it that way, and the cited source appears to be agnostic. Ngram likes the all-caps version. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:58, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
14. "Its total area is 59 sq mi": expand the unit abbreviation? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:58, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
    • abbr is off now. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
15. §Social tensions has "antisemitic" and "anti-Semitism". Recommend changing the latter to "antisemitism". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:58, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Used "antisemitic" for Carey McWilliams. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
16. Book sources including Internet Archive/Open Library urls are currently inconsistent on the use of the via= and url-status parameters. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
    • After reading WP:SAYWHERE and looking at a recent FA, I decided to remove the vias as a first step. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Read WP:CITEHOW, kept chapter pages. Added optional urls for page refs. Books now have url-access for Internet Archive etc. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:56, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
      • I did mean url-access, glad you figured me out. Looks good. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
17. I wasn't sure how to interpret "the country's first fair employment practices", and the cited source didn't quite clarify it for me. It did make me wonder if "first" is really the right term here. Can you double check? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
    • You're right to question "first" (on Wikipedia, always question a first). The MN historical society and the MN department of human rights both say "the nation's first municipal fair employment law." So what we have is true but can be expressed more accurately and must be properly sourced. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:19, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
    • I'm traveling this weekend which will delay me a couple days. I plan to find a good biography of Humphrey. What we have is OK for now. -SusanLesch (talk) 12:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
    • The sentence is sourced three separate times which is a bit odd, but OK when we're condensing a whole career into one sentence. Correction made, and new source added for this specific claim. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:19, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
      • Looks good. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
18. "two disturbances on Plymouth Avenue". I understand wanting to keep this short, and I get that "Plymouth Avenue disturbance" is the name for the 1967 event, but "disturbances" is too vague. Maybe you can briefly summarize the damage/injuries and contrast with the larger riots in other Midwestern cities? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Leaning on Iric Nathanson, came up with a one sentence summary. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
      • I like it. How about "in Detroit and Newark" → "similar incidents in Detroit and Newark"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
        • Almost forgot this one. Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
19. The whole chapter Nathanson citation for the Plymouth Ave material is too broad. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Page number added. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
20. In §Structural racism, Covenant (law) should probably be linked on first use of "convenant", and consider linking to the section §Exclusionary covenants, which helpfully explains the situation briefly before describing the US-specific use. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Done, thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
21. In §Social tensions, the purpose of the quote marks around "dominant" is unclear. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Rewrote and moved that sentence. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
      • Looks good. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
22. "their experience regulating indoor temperature earned them military contracts" comes off as a non-sequitur, and the source suggests that other factors were more important than their success with temperature regulation. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Thank you for the close reading. Reworded to say control systems instead of temperature. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
      • Cool. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
23. "replaced vacuum tubes with transistors": source mentions the 1604 being "all-transistor" but not replacement of vacuum tubes. If another part of the source, or some other source situates the innovation in a more broadly understandable way, that'd be preferable. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Done. I'm away from my books but found a declassified NSA bio of Seymour Cray that fills the bill. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:58, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
24. "A University of Minnesota computing group": link should move to the mention earlier in the paragraph. It should maybe move all the way back to §Dakota homelands' "the state university". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Agreed and moved up. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
25. "World Wide Web traffic": it would be more helpful here to link World Wide Web. Readers are familiar with both the web and web traffic, but they are unlikely to understand the difference between WWW and Gopher, which the WWW link better gets at in contrast with the Gopher link. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Fair enough. Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
26. "the US seized all of their land, and forced the Dakota out of their homeland": how about "the US seized all of the Dakota land and forced them out of their homeland"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:40, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Better. Change made. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:34, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
27. Should the "City of Lakes" nickname be mentioned in the body? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:40, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Surely. Tucked into §Parks and recreation. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:34, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
28. "The city's early growth was attributed": can a more declarative verb phrase be used here? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:40, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Rewritten. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:34, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
29. "19th-century lumber and flour milling capital of the world": not really supported by the body. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:40, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Done. This was tricky because this kind of claim is very difficult to support. I am confident of the truth of the statement, and am away from my books. Added YA book from the Internet Archive that the Minnesota DNR recommends. Would you please see what you think? I am amazed this wasn't stated outright, so rewrote the first para of §Industries develop. I made up two ways of saying "capital of the world"— "the value of Minneapolis [...] milling was the world's highest" and "outsold every other [...] market in the world". -SusanLesch (talk) 19:34, 21 August 2024 (UTC)More
    • Google has decided to tell me today that Minneapolis was the 19th century milling capital of the world, but a few days ago when you raised this, a Google search for 19th century lumber capital gave me Bangor, Maine. Which is also true earlier in the century. As the lumber barons moved west, the capital moved I guess. Maybe I need to qualify the statement in the lead somehow. For example, "Minneapolis was the 19th-century lumber and flour milling capital of the world, and as home..." becomes "For a time in the 19th century, Minneapols was the lumber and flour milling capital of the world, and as home..." Comments welcome. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:10, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
      • This modification made to the claim in the lead. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:49, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

        Thanks! Will be able to review this soon, and then it's a last quick pass I think. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:49, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

        Looks good. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

30. "Minneapolis faces a pressing challenge in the form of stark disparities among its residents—arguably the most critical issue confronting the city in the 21st century.": since "most critical issue" covers the idea, "faces a pressing challenge in the form of" could probably just be "has". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:40, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Change made. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:34, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
31. From a citation: "Anderson examined the Dousman Papers to formulate estimates of the funds that were diverted to White officials.": this seems unnecessary. If needed, readers will want more explanation. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Omitted. -SusanLesch (talk)
32. In §Dakota homeland, "a trial described as a kangaroo court": needs a rewording to remove the weasel words. Could be attributed to Wingerd, but at a glance this might be wiki-voice-worthy. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Not sure I understand. Are you suggesting we say this? After a kangaroo court, 38 Dakota men died by hanging. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
      • Potentially. If a bit more room is warranted, describing the unfairness and rapidity of the trials might be better. Also, "were hanged" makes it more clear that this was something done to them. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:12, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
        • Changed to "were hanged". Sadly, I don't think we have more room in this paragraph for anything (e.g., for this, or to explain Lincoln), so the sentence is shortened to delete the weasel words. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:03, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
          • Unless you'd prefer a footnote? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:24, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

            A footnote would work for me. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:27, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

            Will do Monday when I have my books (even though this is well documented in online sources). -SusanLesch (talk) 17:37, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

            These are in place. Thanks for your patience. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:02, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

            I included a lot and am open to cuts. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:54, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

33. "38 Dakota men died by hanging as ordered by Abraham Lincoln": at least according to the cited source, Lincoln's role was to reduce the execution list from 303 to 39, with one more man being pardoned later by someone unnamed. I think "as ordered by Abraham Lincoln" misstates his role. I'd suggest either adding detail or removing everything after "hanging". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Agree and omitted Lincoln. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
34. "In a close vote, Saint Paul and Stillwater agreed to divide federal funding: Saint Paul would be the capital, while Stillwater would build the prison." This doesn't seem relevant to Minneapolis. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Shortened. I hope it is still understandable? -SusanLesch (talk) 18:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
      • It is. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:12, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
35. Is it accurate to describe Washburn as the sole founder of Washburn-Crosby? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Changed to co-founder. (I think he built a mill first, then Crosby moved to Minneapolis and co-founded Washburn-Crosby.) -SusanLesch (talk) 18:41, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
36. In §Social tensions, is attribution needed for the line about Doc Ames? Most of it seems pretty straightforward. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Good point. Moved attribution down in the section. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:41, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

References

FFFeedback, Pt. 3

1. In §Social tensions, the part about the same-sex marriage needs some work. Readers will think the license was a result of the Supreme Court case, and it's odd to see both the 2013 Minnesota legalization and the 2015 national legalization described as forty years after a 1971 event. Possibly the federal legalization doesn't need a mention here. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:30, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
   • Moved a clause and removed federal. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 12:42, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
2. I have no reason to doubt the "ongoing unrest", but it links to an article with an end date of 2023 and the cited source is a 2022 publication. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:30, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
   • Sorry, where are you getting 2023? I think 2022 qualifies as years, and I added 2024. -SusanLesch (talk) 12:34, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

     The wikilink is to 2020–2023 Minneapolis–Saint Paul racial unrest. It had been to 2020–2022 Minneapolis–Saint Paul racial unrest which redirects to the former page, which I changed in this edit. I agree that "years of ..." is justified even as of 2022, but I still think we have an issue with the word "ongoing" between the wikilink and the dated source. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:36, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

     Thank you for clarifying re: 2023. Do you want to remove the word "ongoing"? (That word is used in the source.) It's worth our effort to show that people protested at GFS every single day for the last four years. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:16, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

     My preference would be to use a newer source if unrest is ongoing. If not, I'd prefer something like "unrest continuing to at least 2022". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:32, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

     We need an older source plus the newer source I just added. Obviously no source available checked IDs and kept track of who was protesting when. The new source covers the past 3 years (overlaps with the old source that covers the first 2). There's another newer source but it covers the past 2.5 years. Don't you agree we're fine with what we have now? -SusanLesch (talk) 15:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

     Reused the new ref to (double) cite the previous sentence. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:51, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

3. In §Neighborhoods, the acronym TIF is never reused. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:34, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
   • Omitted. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
4. "Slate reported that Minneapolis was believed to be the first major city": Slate state's this as a fact. Can we drop the "believed to be"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:34, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
   • Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
5. At least on desktop view, the text is too squished by the "Race and ethnicity of Minneapolis" table. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:34, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
6. " Black home ownership rebounded slightly statewide by 2022 when 48 percent of Black households owned their homes." If I'm reading the source right, 2022 Black homeownership rate was a little under 30%, with the 48% referring to the gap between the Black and White rates. "rebounded" doesn't seem quite the right word here. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:28, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
   • Correction made. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
7. In the last paragraph of §Economy, can the five Fortune 500 companies be listed in order by revenue? Some of the companies mentioned in the last sentence are cited to non-independent sources. Is there a method to who is included? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:02, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
   • No method. Today I searched for "companies with offices not headquartered in minneapolis" and got nowhere in the first four pages of results. RBC just built a downtown tower so would be hard to remove. How about? "Headquartered elsewhere, several other national and international companies have offices in Minneapolis." Maybe I can source that to a list of the 100 biggest companies in the city. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
   • Minneapolis / St. Paul Business Journal has a book of lists but I already used my $4-4 week trial; they now want $210 which I'm unwilling to spend. Still looking. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
   • I wrote to the publisher of the Book of Lists and haven't heard back. Propose that the list of companies be replaced with "The metro area's gross domestic product was $324 billion in 2022." Is that acceptable? The infobox uses chained dollars or $277.6 billion. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:24, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

     The replacement in the body seems fine to me. Is there a way to resolve the discrepancy with the infobox? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:29, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

   • Thank you! Resolved by using Wikipedia's inflation adjustment instead of Dept of Commerce's. Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
8. "Minneapolis purchased and renovated the Orpheum ...": if I'm reading the linked articles right, all of the listed theatres are usually named with a preceding "the", and all of them have "Theatre" in their name. If so, I recommend "Minneapolis purchased and renovated the Orpheum, Shubert (now the Cowles Center for Dance and the Performing Arts), State, and Pantages theatres ..." Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:02, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
   • Great edit, thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
9. Do we need to mention Live Nation? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:02, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
   • Omitted. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
10. "Jacob Frey, a former DFL city council member, was elected": did Frey leave DFL? Does DFL describe the city council? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:10, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
    • Omitted DFL here. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:19, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
11. "A sales tax of 9.03 percent": which parts of the following list are included in the 9.03? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:10, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
    • Unnecessary and too complicated for prose (state, county, special district taxes, and a local use tax for out-of-state purchases). The city portion (a city sales tax of 0.50 percent) is called out. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:11, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
      • Hard to tease out based on existing prose and sources. I'm not seeing any that say 9.03%. The local use tax, if being included in the 9.03, seems out of place, since it wouldn't apply to all purchases in Minneapolis. I may be misunderstanding. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:54, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
        • The source says it's either/or: the state tax of 6.875 percent applies to in-state purchases, and the local use tax is 6.875 percent on out-of-state purchases. I'm happy to change this but would prefer to stick to one sentence. How about "A sales tax of 9.03 percent on purchases made within the city is a combination of the city sales tax of 0.50 percent, along with county, state (or local use tax for out-of-state purchases), and special district taxes."? Maybe either that or omit local use tax entirely? -SusanLesch (talk) 17:29, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

          Either would work for me. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:39, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

          Trimmed local use tax. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:55, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

12. Possible to combine the two sentences about the Office of Public Service? It ends up being unclear that the second sentence is referring back to the first. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:10, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
    • Combined with a semicolon (but I think it was fine). -SusanLesch (talk) 14:19, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
      • 😄 Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:54, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
13. "development, health and livability": I think these collectively form one item in the complex, semicolon-separated list. If so, since we're doing serial commas, I'm thinking a comma before the "and". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:10, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
    • Added. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:19, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
14. "Red Lake Nation College is an accredited federally recognized tribal college site that teaches Ojibwe culture." It's certainly notable that they teach Ojibwe culture, but this makes it seem like that's all they teach. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:10, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
    • Sentence was written on the telephone to the college—every word carefully chosen. I'd rather not call and bother them again. If you have a source to expand the sentence please go ahead. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:06, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
      • Would you object to "that teaches Ojibwe culture and awards associate degrees", citing the existing source? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:54, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
        • Done. Thanks! -SusanLesch (talk) 17:34, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
15. First paragraph of §Transportation: would be helpful to cite link the report directly and cite page numbers. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:10, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
    • Page numbers are there, and a download page is linked. What are you worried about? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:34, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
      • Not sure how I missed the page numbers. Slight pref for a direct PDF link, since the landing page doesn't provide the cited info. Not a big deal. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:54, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
        • Linked directly to the PDF. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:34, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment I'm having trouble with the last paragraph of §Census and estimates about disparities between Black and White Minneapolitans. I will need more time to decide on what to include. Most people doing statistics decide to do "Minnesota", some do the "Twin Cities", and very few do "Minneapolis". Sorry for the delay. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Done by alternating city and state data from the same author. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:12, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers, can you see the finish line? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:02, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

SusanLesch, thanks for both the patience and the prompting. Refreshed eyes on it this afternoon/evening. Hopefully I can push out the last review items this weekend. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:05, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Your move, Firefangledfeathers (talk · contribs). -SusanLesch (talk) 15:55, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Moving slowly! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:10, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I have one thing to attend to but honestly we're way past the point of diminishing returns. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Fair. This is the last batch. Thanks for all the hard work. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:54, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for staying with it! No small commitment. I'm done with my tweaks (added context for the percents given in §Census and estimates per the FAR for Ann Arbor). -SusanLesch (talk) 22:27, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Featured Article Save Award nominations

Please set up separate sections for each nomination.

FASA nomination Firefangledfeathers

I nominate User:Firefangledfeathers for a featured article save award for their efforts at Minneapolis. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Discussion Firefangledfeathers

1. Support. Firefangledfeathers made an extensive review reaching down to comma details and MOS:NUMNOTES for comparable numbers and up to verifying sources. Article was an outlier, FAR took more than a whole year, and couldn't have been kept without them. (I'm the FAC nominator and SandyGeorgia, Z1720, Hog Farm, and buidhe have all declined FASA awards.) -SusanLesch (talk) 16:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)