Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Tourette syndrome
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- @WP:TFA coordinators , I have finished a complete update and rewrite, and put a blurb here on the talk page of the very old FAC. Not sure about the video for the lead image, but the alternate is just old Georges himself, which is boring. The National Advocacy Day in Washington DC is March 4, but the dinner beforehand is March 3; perhaps legislative staff will be more likely to look in on the 3rd, rather than the 4th, but either day works. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:39, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Sandy, very nice blurb. You might consider "No longer considered rare, Tourette's occurs ..." (or similar) instead of "No longer considered rare, about 1% ..."; I don't think it's a problem, but there are copyeditors who object sometimes. - Dank (push to talk) 20:11, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Got it, Dank, if you want to have another look. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:52, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thumbs up. - Dank (push to talk) 21:34, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Got it, Dank, if you want to have another look. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:52, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Sandy, very nice blurb. You might consider "No longer considered rare, Tourette's occurs ..." (or similar) instead of "No longer considered rare, about 1% ..."; I don't think it's a problem, but there are copyeditors who object sometimes. - Dank (push to talk) 20:11, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
@Ceoil, Outriggr, Yomangani, Ergo Sum, and Colin: for the blurb below. Hoping to run TFA on March 3 or 4, during the US National Advocacy Day, when advocates meet with legislators. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:35, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Bizarre is still in the blurb. Suggest "a neurodevelopmental disorder characterized by tics, with onset in childhood."
- Dont like "with onset", as its not immediately clear to non med people. "That develops" or something. I wouldn't bother with Jean-Martin Charcot in the main page blurb, oerhalps replace with the more assuring "Education is an important part of any treatment plan, and explanation and reassurance alone is often sufficient treatment". Ceoil (talk) 18:03, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Got it all, except bizarre, which I'm sticking with, 'cuz that's what it was called in the past :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:27, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Sound. I'm fine with bizarre as now pitched. Best of luck with the main page gremlins, though I think you'll be fine. Ceoil (talk) 18:40, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Looks good to me, but for one thing that will bother me. In the first sentence: "disorder characterized by tics, that develops", I would much prefer/recommend "which" instead of "that". It used to be the case that "which" always followed a comma, but this is no longer universally accepted. In this case, because "characterized by tics" is not offset by commas, I did a double-take, initially thinking there was a grammatical error in there somewhere. Other than that, it looks like a good blurb. Ergo Sum 20:12, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Sound. I'm fine with bizarre as now pitched. Best of luck with the main page gremlins, though I think you'll be fine. Ceoil (talk) 18:40, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- Got it all, except bizarre, which I'm sticking with, 'cuz that's what it was called in the past :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:27, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
I don't like the sentence "Once considered rare and bizarre, it is often associated with coprolalia, a symptom present in a minority of people with Tourette's." For a start "bizarre" partly repeats "rare" but also includes "strange" and I'm not sure that aspect has changed -- there are still social problems with ticing that attract attention. We don't define coprolalia, which most folk won't know. We say it is "often associated" but don't qualify that with "wrongly" or "in popular culture" or quantify it (article says 10%) vs a true medical association. And then we conclude it is only a minority . So I'm wondering if per WP:WEIGHT and per being encyclopaedic (educationally current rather than digging up old tropes) we drop that sentence entirely. How refreshing, for the 90% to read, to have a lead introducing TS without sensationally commenting on how strange and foul-mouthed. Perhaps then we could replace "Now considered common," with "Once considered rare", and the 1% lets people judge for themselves where it fits on a spectrum of rare..common. Is there room to fit a shortened part of the article's 1st para, where we mention a vocal tick plus some movement ticks, and the semi-involuntary nature (similar to the need to sneeze or scratch an itch)? I think that would really help people understand the tics better. -- Colin°Talk 08:21, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Colin - on everything as far as I can see. Maybe I am Colin. Also it is a bit stilted, like it has been condensed from a lead rather than written as blurb (What? That's exactly what you did?). Here's my quick attempt at reworking it - with obligatory inlines - explaining some of the symptoms and smoothing the flow a bit. Yomanganitalk 09:47, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Tourette syndrome is a neurodevelopmental disorder which develops during childhood. It is characterized by tics such as blinking, coughing, sniffing, and facial movements, and occasionally coprolalia (the involuntary utterance of socially inappropriate words). Once considered rare, Tourette's is estimated to occur in about 1% of school-age children and adolescents, although many sufferers go undiagnosed or never seek medical care. There is no specific test for diagnosis and Tourette's is not always correctly identified because most cases are mild. The exact cause of the disorder is unknown, but is believed to involve genetic and environmental factors. Though sensationalized in the media, extreme cases in adulthood are rare and it does not affect intelligence or life expectancy. Education is an important part of any treatment plan, and explanation and reassurance are often sufficient. The condition was named for Georges Gilles de la Tourette, who published an account of nine patients with Tourette's in 1885. (Full article...)
- I wanted to go a bit further. If 90% of people with TS don't have foul-mouthed tics then why mention that in a brief summary? I can imagine that for many of them, the first question they get is "Do you swear a lot and can't help it?, which must be frustrating. Compare Autism blurb which neglects to mention autistic savants despite the (unhelpful) focus on that in mainstream presentations. How about "...such as blinking, coughing, sniffing, facial movements and vocal sounds or words. These are, like a sneeze, semi-voluntary and not reliably suppressed." -- Colin°Talk 11:06, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I think it is helpful to mention it without playing it up. 10% is still significant, but whether calling out the specific "swearing" tic is a plus or a minus I'm in two minds. Anyway, here's the alternative with Colin's suggestion incorporated (and a couple of words changed to get it back under the character limit. Yomanganitalk 13:50, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Tourette syndrome is a neurodevelopmental disorder which develops during childhood. It is characterized by tics such as blinking, coughing, sniffing, facial movements and vocal sounds or words; these are, like a sneeze, semi-voluntary and not reliably suppressed. Once considered rare, Tourette's is estimated to occur in about 1% of school-age children and adolescents, although many sufferers go undiagnosed or never seek medical care. There is no specific test for diagnosis and Tourette's is not always correctly identified because most cases are mild. The exact cause of the disorder is unknown, but is believed to involve genetic and environmental factors. Though sensationalized in the media, extreme cases in adulthood are rare and it does not affect intelligence or life expectancy. Education is an integral part of any treatment plan, and explanation and reassurance are often sufficient. The condition was named for Georges Gilles de la Tourette, who published an account of nine patients with Tourette's in 1885. (Full article...)
- Thanks, you three-way puppets <smile> ! It is still a tad long, so I had to trim somewhere ... I would drop the "semi-voluntary and reliably suppressed" bit, as that is getting into too much detail. I would also avoid the word "suffer". Installed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:37, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Did you like the bit where I disagreed with my sock? The "Though sensationalised in the media" clause is countered with "extreme cases in adulthood are rare" but the following "and Tourette's does not affect intelligence or life expectancy" just seems stuck on and doesn't counter the media bit. I think we could easily drop "Though sensationalised in the media" completely. Many people will know this already but don't need to know it to understand TS. The cause section could be shortened to "The cause is believed to involve unknown genetic and environmental factors". And the final sentence could just end with "of nine patients", as it seems a bit recursive to say it was named after a report of patients who had the named condition.
- Currently the text mentions some movement tics but neglects to mention vocal tics at all, which is apparently a required tick. If we now have room for "semi-voluntary and reliably suppressed", I'd vote for returning that, as I think it helps me understand the immediate process surrounding a tick. Is it worth name dropping Johnson for click bait purposes? -- Colin°Talk 15:29, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Sniffing and coughing are vocal tics. Will come back to the rest. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:45, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Colin again. But to further the illusion that I'm not him I'm going to pretend I think he means Dwayne Johnson. I amalgamated the two sentences about life expectancy and adult cases to cut the character count, but I agree the first clause could be dropped to make it more harmonious. (The Rock has TS? Really?). I also agree with putting the vocal tics and semi-voluntary bits back in - I think the second version I did, with Colin's addition was two under the maximum count, so they should fit back in without killing it. (The star of 13 Fast and 8 Furious has tics? I never noticed.) Yomanganitalk 15:53, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yo-man, I got crossed with your post above and missed some of it. Could you take my latest (below) and re-work next? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:56, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I think your latest version is fine. I prefer the second sentence from Colin's version: "It is characterized by tics such as blinking, coughing, sniffing, facial movements and vocal sounds or words; these are, like a sneeze, semi-voluntary and not reliably suppressed." as I think it is easier to parse and has a relatable example, but yours is fine too. Yomanganitalk 16:02, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- It is quite a subtle issue, but I am not comfortable with using semi-voluntary in the blurb, where we can't give a full explanation of unvoluntary (leaving the reader the impression that tics are controllable), and I am likewise uncomfortable with "reliably" suppressed, getting in to too much explained territory (eg, children can't suppress tics very well and not all tics are suppressible, and reliably isn't a word often used). I also don't think we need to get in to the whole vocal/motor thing in the blurb, especially since the current thinking (see Classification) is that the distinction is not useful. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:10, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I think your latest version is fine. I prefer the second sentence from Colin's version: "It is characterized by tics such as blinking, coughing, sniffing, facial movements and vocal sounds or words; these are, like a sneeze, semi-voluntary and not reliably suppressed." as I think it is easier to parse and has a relatable example, but yours is fine too. Yomanganitalk 16:02, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yo-man, I got crossed with your post above and missed some of it. Could you take my latest (below) and re-work next? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:56, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Colin again. But to further the illusion that I'm not him I'm going to pretend I think he means Dwayne Johnson. I amalgamated the two sentences about life expectancy and adult cases to cut the character count, but I agree the first clause could be dropped to make it more harmonious. (The Rock has TS? Really?). I also agree with putting the vocal tics and semi-voluntary bits back in - I think the second version I did, with Colin's addition was two under the maximum count, so they should fit back in without killing it. (The star of 13 Fast and 8 Furious has tics? I never noticed.) Yomanganitalk 15:53, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Sniffing and coughing are vocal tics. Will come back to the rest. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:45, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, you three-way puppets <smile> ! It is still a tad long, so I had to trim somewhere ... I would drop the "semi-voluntary and reliably suppressed" bit, as that is getting into too much detail. I would also avoid the word "suffer". Installed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:37, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Tourette syndrome is a neurodevelopmental disorder which develops during childhood. It is characterized by tics such as blinking, coughing, sniffing, facial movements and vocal sounds or words; these are, like a sneeze, semi-voluntary and not reliably suppressed. Once considered rare, Tourette's is estimated to occur in about 1% of school-age children and adolescents, although many sufferers go undiagnosed or never seek medical care. There is no specific test for diagnosis and Tourette's is not always correctly identified because most cases are mild. The exact cause of the disorder is unknown, but is believed to involve genetic and environmental factors. Though sensationalized in the media, extreme cases in adulthood are rare and it does not affect intelligence or life expectancy. Education is an integral part of any treatment plan, and explanation and reassurance are often sufficient. The condition was named for Georges Gilles de la Tourette, who published an account of nine patients with Tourette's in 1885. (Full article...)
- I think it is helpful to mention it without playing it up. 10% is still significant, but whether calling out the specific "swearing" tic is a plus or a minus I'm in two minds. Anyway, here's the alternative with Colin's suggestion incorporated (and a couple of words changed to get it back under the character limit. Yomanganitalk 13:50, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- I wanted to go a bit further. If 90% of people with TS don't have foul-mouthed tics then why mention that in a brief summary? I can imagine that for many of them, the first question they get is "Do you swear a lot and can't help it?, which must be frustrating. Compare Autism blurb which neglects to mention autistic savants despite the (unhelpful) focus on that in mainstream presentations. How about "...such as blinking, coughing, sniffing, facial movements and vocal sounds or words. These are, like a sneeze, semi-voluntary and not reliably suppressed." -- Colin°Talk 11:06, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
- Tourette syndrome is a neurodevelopmental disorder which develops during childhood. It is characterized by tics such as blinking, coughing, sniffing, and facial movements, and occasionally coprolalia (the involuntary utterance of socially inappropriate words). Once considered rare, Tourette's is estimated to occur in about 1% of school-age children and adolescents, although many sufferers go undiagnosed or never seek medical care. There is no specific test for diagnosis and Tourette's is not always correctly identified because most cases are mild. The exact cause of the disorder is unknown, but is believed to involve genetic and environmental factors. Though sensationalized in the media, extreme cases in adulthood are rare and it does not affect intelligence or life expectancy. Education is an important part of any treatment plan, and explanation and reassurance are often sufficient. The condition was named for Georges Gilles de la Tourette, who published an account of nine patients with Tourette's in 1885. (Full article...)
Colin, like this ? This is 1,000 characters. We have now deleted all mention of sensationalized, bizarre, etc. Those were helpful to draw readers in, in my (biased) opinion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:54, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
Tourette syndrome is a neurodevelopmental disorder which develops during childhood. It is characterized by tics such as blinking, coughing, sniffing, or facial movements that are a somewhat suppressible response to an unwanted urge. Once considered rare, Tourette's occurs in about 1% of people under eighteen, although many go undiagnosed or never seek medical care. There is no specific test for diagnosis and Tourette's is not always correctly identified because most cases are mild. Extreme cases in adulthood are rare and Tourette's does not affect intelligence or life expectancy. Education is an integral part of any treatment plan, and explanation and reassurance are often sufficient. The cause is believed to involve unknown genetic and environmental factors. The condition was named for Georges Gilles de la Tourette, who published an account of nine patients in 1885. (Full article...)
TFA blurb
editTourette syndrome is a neurodevelopmental disorder which develops during childhood. It is characterized by tics such as blinking, coughing, sniffing, or facial movements that are a somewhat suppressible response to an unwanted urge. Once considered rare, Tourette's occurs in about 1% of people under eighteen, although many go undiagnosed or never seek medical care. There is no specific test for diagnosis and Tourette's is not always correctly identified because most cases are mild. Extreme cases in adulthood are rare and Tourette's does not affect intelligence or life expectancy. Education is an integral part of any treatment plan, and explanation and reassurance are often sufficient. The cause is believed to involve unknown genetic and environmental factors. The condition was named for Georges Gilles de la Tourette, who published an account of nine patients in 1885. (Full article...)