Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Nintendo DSi/archive3

Jinnai's commentary

lead

• No mention that it was released in non-English locations other than Japan (don't need to be specific here, but it makes the DSi (XL) look exclusively Japanese/English release.
• No evidence in the article to support the claim that it is a PSP rival system and its OR to claim is a 7th generation console system (even those who support generation naming scheme will not support that its a console). That is a very controversial claim since the entire article lists it as a handheld and does not talk about "generation" anywhere.
• Could use some info in development about removal of the GBA slot.
• Reviewers also were mixed on the GBA slot and camera. The lack of such clarity makes the reception of those of seem more rosy in the lead.

History section

• The transition between DSi and DSi XL is quite sudden. When reading it I was not expecting this and felt the lack of transition made it feel out of place. I believe this could be solved by moving the information about Iwata wanting parrallel development to the first sentance rather than buried in the middle.
• The Japanese name (and possibly alternatives) should be up at the top of that paragraph right after the first mention of DSi XL.

Launch

• Color release info seems a bit detailed and phrased poorly. Why is it important that we know they are called specifically "matte black/white"? That seems like an unnessary quote where the phrase two colors, black and white,would suffice.
• Along those same lines the whole first few sentances are giving a round-about way of saying it was released worldwide in those colors on specific dates (and also the first NA release of a DS unit in 2 colors). That whole beginning could should be copyedited to make it more sucinct, flow naturally and explain to the reader immediatly that those 2 colors were the initial launch colors for each region.
• I get to the 3rd paragraph and learn there is another region that released the models. That should be placed up in the front of this section. It is still close to several of the dates for Austrialia so it looks like bias against the Chinese release that it doesn't get mention with the rest. The second sentance lists Korea. That info should go up there 2 as well as the other countries. The info about numbers and such should go after it otherwise it looks like its bias against those countries when they're put in the middle between everything where they'll likely be ignored unless someone like me reads through it.
• No need to restate the Japanese name.
• On Princing:
  Why is the NA pricing important? So the DSi XL more expensive? It's a newer system and that's common practice.
  Why is it relevant that Nintendo allowed regions to set their prices? and more importantly, why is it relevant that the wholesale price is higher given that its a newer system and expected to be?
  Why is the pricing in Australia relevant? Again that's normal trends for newer system to be more expensive. That they dropped the price of the DSi doesn't change anything; that's also common practice for many places.
• That last section really doesn't seem to fit there. It's not about launch info of the DSi (XL).

Demographics and sales

• The 165 number should have an adjusted for inflation notation so readers can see how the $15 dollars compares with the inflation adjustment to 2010. use{{inflation}}.
• Why are 3DS sales here? So they dropped to the same price as the DSi XL...what does that have to do with the DSi (XL) other than a coincidence?

Hardware

• Does the source say the design is similar to DS Lite?

Technical specifications

• I don't think you need to spell out RAM and definatly not CPU. Those are commonly understood abreviations, especially the latter.
• Mobile phones is vague. Every single mobile phone with a camera ever made? Every mobile phone since it was released? Every mobile phone in countries where it was released since then? It's too vague.

larger model

• Again with the unnessasary "DSi LL in Japan"

Features

• i shouldn't have to click on hot swapping to know what it means. A short description should be placed after it as its sounds like WP:JARGON. FE:Soft reset is explained in such a way.

Software library

• I note the lack of region-locking info. As the DS wasn't, I find that lack a serious flaw.
• Again with the prices....

Reception

• The GBA slot seems to fly in the face of earlier commentary. That begs me to question who was at the initial unveiling because the reviews seem US-centric and its unclear about the initial release. This lack of clearness makes it hard to understand how the clamour early on about the thickness could be viewed so negatively vs. how the minor trim could with the lack of a GBA slot could be viewd so negatively.

other

• I would like to see a side-by-side comparison of the DSi and DSi XL as the images don't make it clear visually how much bigger they are both folded and screen-size.∞陣内Jinnai 01:21, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Lead

• For regions...there is no need to be anymore specific than what is listed there. The major regions are listed, and minor ones are mentioned briefly as a group. What separates this from video game software released worldwide?
• I've added and sourced info about the PSP under History. The Wikiproject needs to sort out the whole "x-generation" thing on its own. Why is it still a parameter in the infobox? Why not delete the generation articles if its so controversial? I thought its a structure Wikipedia made-up through some sort of simple counting. So sourcing that is kind of like sourcing parental ratings, its just not done and not brought up at FAC.
• I've added the development and critique info you asked for.

History

• The DSi XL's back-story is in chronological order.This is what it read like before the suggestion at peer review to make it clearer in the first sentence that the larger DS Lite model is the DSi XL.
• I did however move mention of the names towards the middle of the paragraph.

Launch

• I've asked some users in the past about color naming and this is the result. There should be some standardization throughout the article, so I found it best to use the official names. Despite the sources do not explicitly state it, do you really want me to replace (as an example) "metallic blue" with dark blue?
• Launch is in chronological order so that's why regions are placed where they are. I honestly have no problem with the status-quo.
• When it comes to pricing, I tried to follow MOS so I made the US dollar the primary currency for the article. The rest of the pricing is just so its comprehensive, anyone else disagree? I thought it would also provide context to the reader as they get to the sales section.
• The 3DS news here directly impacted the DSi XL's launch.

Demographics and sales

• I'm not comfortable using that template as I would like to avoid OR. The source does not mention inflation and specifically gave those figures.
• I think its important to note the new 3DS price here as this will adversely impact DSi XL sales. The sales section is not going to stop there so expecting third-party sources to eventually discuss the impact of this is not far-fetched. As stated under "launch", price is mentioned to provide context to the reader.

Hardware

• Fixed, that's mentioned on page 3 not 1. They only danced around it on page 1.

Technical specifications

• Switched to abbreviations only.
• Hows the current wording? "However, their resolution are considerably lower than that of digital cameras and mobile phones released at the time."

Features

• Added an explanation.

Software library

• Its a bit of a gray area, but I've moved the region-locking info from "Internet connectivity" to the software library section.
• I have to discuss applications and how they are priced. Based on previous peer reviews which pointed me to MOS, I should pick a currency and stick with it.

Reception

• Is something contradictory here? Critics liked most of its hardware functionality, not all of it. If the reception section had sources before it was released, then I would've divided it like Portal 2.

other

• Certainly if free comparison images were available I would use them, but they're not. Besides, measurements for both handhelds are in the article.
• I've removed all instances of "DSi LL in Japan" after its first mention. Not too sure about removing it where the article discusses about its launch in specific territories. « ₣M₣ » 09:02, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Just because no one else has brought up generation issue beforedoesn't mean it is okay. It is still a contriversial claim, especially listing it as part of the console genetation instead of handheld generation.
  • As for currency WP:GAMECRUFT #7 - cost. With the exception of the price increase Gamastura mentions and the 3DS one (which doesn't seem to go here anyway) there's no reason I see for any prices to be here. None of the prices you mention other than those 2 are particularly noteworthy given the cirtique and commentary.
    I do agree where its relevant you should pick a currency and stick with it as the base. However, its being used here far too liberally as its completely unnecessary. It isn't like the PS3 launch or other noteworthy pricing. Wikipedia isn't here as an advertising space and prices shouldn't be mentioned without a good reason.
  • 3DS's launch - okay the source says the DSi XL was "old news" in Japan. The text makes it sound like it was brand new there too. It does not give any context why it was so bad for the DSi XL (ie it was Nintendo of Japan doing what was in its best interest and not nessasarily Nintendo of America). The text just makes it look like Nintendo flubbed up the DSi XL's launch.

• • Inflation is allowed per WP:CALC as that template's functions are clearly defined. It is used in other FAs. There is no OR as long as you note the years.

• • 3DS price drop: There is no context there that shows the 3DS price drop is relevant. If and when they do comment on it, then it could be relevant. However, without that its WP:COATRACKy as this is not an article about the 3DS. Without that context it appears as though you're trying to use link the two to make a point not supported sources.

• • Mobile phone info is fine. I've crossed that out.

• • On the region locking issue, that's partially solved. It may not have been like this when DSi launched, but latest firmware region-locks all games, including cartrige-based games. That is relevant info that's missing here.

• • In the reception, what appears contradictory is the GBA slot reception. The initial protoype launch appears to have been negatively recieved because of its slightly larger size while the final release seems to have had mixed reviews with a lot of reviewers noting they'd not mind 3-4 more milimeters to have the GBA slot.

• • The DSi LL name should appear immediatly after the first mention of the DSi XL (at least first mention after the lead) because that is common practice with names where the original version was released under a different/foreign name. There's nothing to indicate the DSi XL is special in any way here.

• • As for the image, a quick search on flickr's commons for CC images reveals one that could be modified (the red one and the one to the left. You may even be able to email the uploader and see if he'll do one for with it open as he's uploadedimages.∞陣内Jinnai 16:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Can I get away with using[1] to cite the seventh-generation notion?

I removed all pricing information under Launch except for the DSi and XL's US base price as Gamastura discussed the consumer average price for both models combined.

Revising the Launch section didn't breakup its flow too badly... so I went ahead and moved the info about the other countries higher.

Removed 3DS price drop info under sales. Also, I tried adding the inflation template properly.

I'm not surprised you think regular DS games are region-locked. Researching the whole DSi region-locking was a mess. I don't think I'll be able to prove the reliability of sites that discuss DSi-enhanced game like[2] or[3]. Some of the "best" sites to meet WP:RS are confusing Nintendo DSi-enhanced games with DSi-exclusive games. This laughably inaccurateIGN article is so bad I stopped after the first sentence. Just for you though, I went back to it. :) I added their test as a annotation.

Only one critic doesn't care if the DSi is larger with the GBA slot. Isn't Cnet's comment moot since the History section is talking about Nintendo unveilingin-company a DSi with two DS game card slots? « ₣M₣ » 22:04, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

The link to MCV is a start. For something controversial like this, There should be several sources as it could otherwise be challenged. If you can find another RS and add it that should be enough unless there are RSes that claim otherwise. The generation issue is controversial so it requires for that 1 citation.

Pricing - There is still some: "It was more expensive than the original DSi—it carried a list price of $189.99 in North America.", "The DSi carried a list price of US$169.99 in the former region." and also the DSiWare pricing. I don't see any info how knowing the prices helps. In the former, that its more expensive is enough info. As for the latter, that would acceptable if their was some development commentary or review of the pricing scheme. Right now the article lacks that. You could just say it has a three-tiered pricing scheme (probably worded better) and give all the relevant info necessary for understanding that different DSiWare cost different amounts of money and are on a semi-fixed scheme.

As for the inflation template I was thinking you should have make it for 2010 (the year Gamasutra calculated the $15. That is done by adding a second date to the template. That way there is some context to the $15.

As for region locking, I can say that is the case. I had a European Dragon Quest V and could not play it in my DSi (1.6 whatever), but could on my DS Lite. It was a North American one. I know that's OR, but I'd have to say that's critical info that's missing from that section.

The 3DS info is fine. The quote clarified that and gave it relevance.

As for the reviews, my bad. I clicked on several and thought I remembered seeing it at least twice. However, I apologize and withdraw that part.

Some other items I noticed with prose:

• "A release time-frame" - this can almost certainly be rephased in a non-hyphenated manner.

• "it sold 535,379 units, in comparison to 550,000 DS Lites sold in its launch month." I don't suppose there is a more specific number for the latter? If not, consider rounding it as all the other numbers in that paragraph are making it stand out.

• Maybe rephrase the DSi XL launch for the tersiary countries with Turkey and whatnot. The repretion does detract from the engaging prose when its basically the same sentance.
• The lower-case "i" in "DSi" - remove lower-case as its redundant with the lower-cased i.
• You should link Chinese/China and South Korea. Every other country is linked in the prose.
• You should wikilink to Digital camera as its a key feature.
• I don't suppose the dimensions and specs could be moved to a table? It's hard to read it in prose (one of the few times I'll say something might be better outside prose).

Finally, I added some Wikilinks to the technical specifications section. That section is still a not average user friendly. Specifically, native mode and Codec IC could be described better.

Also, if you cannot find any RS for the region-locking, I'd say it would fail 1(b) as that is a major facet of its limitations.

No need to put scare quotes around "eyes" and "DSi". It draws attention to those too much. I can see it being necessary for "i", but that's it. ∞陣内Jinnai 03:36, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Modified History section (transition and its Japanese name) and took another stab at the inflation template.

Removed generation info and pricing.

The only region linked is PAL territories in the lead (I hope the template in the infobox doesn't count and I do vaguely remember a copyeditor removing these wikilinks...) so its either remove PAL, link all others too, or keep it as is.

I cannot find proof what this article is missing on region locking is major. What you're talking about seems like something secretly added by some developers to a handful of DSi-enhanced games. Certainly if this was added to firmware, and by extension making this a widespread issue, it would've been much easier to find. So agree to disagree?

Speaking of disagreeing, I rather not place all that information into a table. That particular info would be isolated leaving out statements like "the DSi XL is the longest, widest and heaviest DS model", so I'm not convinced.« ₣M₣ » 20:38, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Well the region-locking isn't for DSi-enhanced games. The game I'm talking about is not a DSi-enhanced one and its occured with several others. Maybe it was "secretly" added, but it is still a major issue as it is region-locking DS games. The sources as you mention only note that DSi games were region-locked. That DS games would be on a newer system but not is a major difference.

As for the specifications, IMO it makes it harder to read and comprehend as that info does not flow well in prose. However, I guess it would be good to get a 2nd opinion here.∞陣内Jinnai 16:06, 6 November 2011 (UTC)