Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Michael Hordern/archive1

Addressed comments from Casliber

• Comments - reading through now....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:53, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

The St Audries School for Girls link goes to St Audries Park..? scrap that, I see the school mention now..be good to expand at some point in the latter article but not an issue here....

"culmination"....sounds dramatic...any reason we're not going with "conclusion"...?

Changed to: "When the war ended in 1918..." Cassianto^Talk 19:28, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Addressed comments from Tim riley

• Comment – I shall certainly be supporting the FA candidacy of this informative and highly enjoyable article but first I must follow up one point from the peer review that still needs attention. Whatever Hordern wrote in his memoirs, it is factually incorrect to say that Jumpers was Stoppard's second play or that The Real Inspector Hound was his first. See here. I suggest turning "second play" into "new play" and axing the footnote. That attended to, I shall be very pleased indeed to add my support here. – Tim riley talk 19:39, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
  • My mistake, I'd thought I'd addressed this. I've removed it completely. Cassianto^Talk 21:51, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Addressed comments from Wehwalt

• Comments Excellent work. Some comments, of which this is the first tranche:

• "Upon his demobilisation he resumed his acting career and made his television debut, eventually becoming a reliable bit-part actor in many films, particularly in the war film genre." We are talking about seven or eight years, I'm not sure "eventually" is warranted.

• Agree, deleted. Cassianto^Talk 22:34, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

• You link captain, which is more or less a disambiguation page. Suggest something more specific.

• I'm not an expert in this field, and Hordern doesn't elaborate, so I'm going with Captain (Royal Navy). Cassianto^Talk 22:34, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

• You dance around it but do not say how old he was when sent to school. I imagine you can derive it by doing the maths problem, but possibly the reader should be spared that.

• Fair point; he was five according to my maths. Again, Hordern is decidedly coy about this in his autobiography. Cassianto^Talk 22:34, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

• Is the role of the Major-General actually starring, when you are dealing with a schoolboy production?

• Swapped for "appeared". Cassianto^Talk 22:34, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

• "He briefly took a job at a prep school" is this the one in Beaconsfield or another?

• It's the one in Beaconsfield. Cassianto^Talk 22:34, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

• The footnote for cue script is positively opaque. I can't make heads or tails of it.

• How odd. That wasn't what I had written. Never mind, all fixed now, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 22:34, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

• "He moved into a small London flat at Marble Arch and became one of the many jobbing actors eager to make a name for themselves on the London stage." I would strike the first "London" as even those unfamiliar with London locales can check the link, and it saves wear and tear on the name, as you use it twice.

• Agree, now fixed. Cassianto^Talk 22:34, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

• "In March, Daltry, who had since formed his own company, Westminster Productions, cast Hordern as Ludovico in Othello,[31] which would become the actor's first paid role as an actor within a theatre company." I would split after "Othello" and say something like "This became Herdern's first paid role as an actor for a theatre company" or some such.

• Largely adopted: "The part became Hordern's first paid role as an actor for a theatre company." is this OK? Cassianto^Talk 22:34, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

• Sure.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:59, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• " It was a time that the actor recognised as both a turning point and a start in his professional acting career." I think on Yes Minister, this is where Bernard comes in and says something can't be both a start and a turning point.

• Deleted "start of". Cassianto^Talk 22:34, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

• The sort of role Uncle Harry is might be helpful to the reader aware Holdern was being typecast but is uncertain what as.

• Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:36, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "Hordern fell in love with Eve Mortimer, a juvenile actress who appeared in minor roles" I'd link "juvenile" to assure the American reader that Holdern was not cradle-robbing.

• Thanks, linked. Cassianto^Talk 09:36, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "Hordern's elation at eventually becoming a leading man " possibly "finally" for "eventually"

• Swapped. Cassianto^Talk 09:36, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "it helped in his appeal to his commanding officers" superior officers generally or was there a succession of captains? Normally, I don't think there are multiple commanding officers at the same time.

• Tweaked. Cassianto^Talk 09:36, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "Hordern was appointed as one of the first operatives who commentated enemy movements to the RAF." possibly communicated for commentated.

• Swapped, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 09:36, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:41, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Much thanks for these so far; some excellent points. Cassianto^Talk 09:36, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "the actor Cyril Luckham acting as best man." actor/acting.

• This was harder than it looks to fix. In the end I opted for "with the actor Cyril Luckham as best man". Does that look OK? Cassianto^Talk 10:08, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "relocated to the Admiralty where he worked briefly as a ship dispatcher" maybe "transferred to" or "based at". I note the lede mentions his demobilisation but the body does not.

• Done, but late saying so here. Cassianto^Talk 13:16, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "his first television role, Noah, in a play adapted from the book of the same name. Hordern was apprehensive about performing within the new medium and found the twice-weekly performances to be exhausting, but he was generously paid, earning the sum of £45." multiple things. First, I would either link to Noah (if Biblical) or the book, if a link exists. Second, the play was performed on television twice weekly? Talk about reruns! And were the earnings cumulative or per period? (it may be that it was a television serial, but this should be made clear)

• There are some strange things happening here: Tim, I think, brought this up at the PR and I swear I fixed it! Oh well, I have now. The two performances were the rehearsal and the performance itself. All television was live back then and I've reflected this in the text; likewise, the fee. Thanks. Cassianto^Talk 10:08, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "Richard Fenton, a murder victim, in Dear Murderer" I try not to get into style, but wouldn't "the victim" for "a murder victim", be more effective (that is, if there was only one)?

• There was only one, yes. So to use simply "a victim" would, I fear, suggest that there was more than one. Cassianto^Talk 10:08, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• " in which he portrayed the part as the blustery, eccentric Mr Toad." likely "of" for the "as". It could be shortened though.

• Changed. Cassianto^Talk 12:54, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "as being the turning point of his career." Up pops Bernard again to say that it can't be "the" turning point as he has already had one at the start (and it's by MH's own description in both cases)

• Hordern does profess to having at least two "turning point"'s in his career. He uses the singular for the first and "another", for the second. This, to me, does sound quite repetitive so I've changed the latter to "an important era in his career". Now Bernard, back to your office, there's a good chap! Cassianto^Talk 12:54, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "the tranquillity in his sleepy country village" this may be an ENGVAR thing, but is it "in" or "of"?

• Of, I'd say. Cassianto^Talk 12:54, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "and condemned the play for reaching first place" I'm not sure I like "reaching first place". "the play" is used three times within a short space.

• Blitzed "the play" down to one and tweaked the rest: "Hordern liked the piece, calling it 'bitter and interesting', but the press, who extensively reported on the competition throughout each stage, thought differently and condemned it for winning. This infuriated the actors Laurence Olivier and John Gielgud, who wrote letters of complaint to the press.

• Was there any British reaction to Scrooge?

• Added on from the Aberdeen Evening Express. Cassianto^Talk 13:15, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "on the London side of the River Avon." I don't pretend to know England except as a tourist, but London doesn't seem to be anywhere near that river.

• It's a geographical term familiar in London. Those south of the river are far less superior as those of us who are to the north of it. that's right, isn't it SchroCat? ;) In this case though, I think you are right; it is too far north east of London for it to be relevent so I'll happily adjust. Cassianto^Talk 12:54, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "claimed one critic, before going on to opine" I should cut this to utter necessity so as not to get in the way of the critic's fine play on Gertrude's criticism of Polonius.

• Done, but please check this to confirm I've grasped exactly what you mean. Cassianto^Talk 12:54, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "know it very well ..."[98] the actor admitted, before going on to say "... but I wouldn't attempt " I'm not sure both ellipses are needed. I might do without entirely.

• Now deleted. Cassianto^Talk 12:54, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "With the experience of Nina still obvious in his mind," possibly "fresh" for "obvious"

• Done. Cassianto^Talk 12:54, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "he had never experienced that extent of professional freedom" I might say "degree" for "extent"

• Swapped, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 13:15, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:41, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks so far. Cassianto^Talk 13:37, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

And the rest:

• "The final dress rehearsal also experienced disruption when the revolving stage broke down and had to be fixed half-way through the performance." I would cut the final two words. It isn't one.

• Cut. Cassianto^Talk 13:28, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• Can nothing more be said of Jeeves? You often have a full paragraph on relatively minor roles, and it seems a pity to be so summary with Jeeves.

• Will do. Cassianto^Talk 13:37, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "Despite his problems off the stage, the critics were complimentary of his performance," I would make it clearer that the personal problems did not affect his performance, rather than the critics thinking ill of him because of his domestic issues. They might today.

• Not so, I fear. Infidelities and general bad behaviour are normally awarded today by a four-page spread in OK! and a lucrative contract to appear in Celebrity Big Brother. Funny how times change! Cassianto^Talk 13:28, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "In 1976 Hordern portrayed the monarch father of Richard Chamberlain's character" possibly more immediately informative if "In 1976 Hordern portrayed the kingly father of the Prince (played by Richard Chamberlain)" or some such.

• Adopted, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 13:37, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "she never fully recovered. She required constant care but recovered " I would change the first recovered to recuperated

• Changed, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 13:37, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

• "the struggles within the British middle-class society during the post-war years." I would cut the second "the"

• Deleted. Cassianto^Talk 13:37, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Very well done, an actor I had seen from time to time but am glad to know more about. I will happily support once these things are done. Note I will be traveling today and tomorrow.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:37, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks once again for some fantastic comments. It's surprising how much needed doing this late on. All fixed bar one which I will get to later today or tomorrow. Cassianto^Talk 17:14, 17 February 2016 (UTC)