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Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Four Freedoms (Norman Rockwell)/archive2

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Latest comment: 10 years ago by TonyTheTiger
Lede
  • "delivered to Congress." Consider striking. I think the reader can be expected to know this. Alternatively, consider striking the word "delivered".
  • "Roosevelt's message was as follows …" I don't see that this sentence and quotation adds anything for lede purposes. I'd delete it. Alternatively, switch this and the prior sentences, but I really think this is unnecessary and detracts from the strength of the lede. It gives the reader no actual information he didn't have before, as, of course, Roosevelt's statement is more or less a preamble to the actual FF (I will abbreviate for purposes of this review).
  • "This series is a cornerstone of a retrospective of the career of Rockwell" What does that mean?
  • "contemporary commercial artist of the mid 20th century" Isn't the word "contemporary" unneeded because of the dating of his work?
  • "Rockwell's most well-known works of art" I would alter to "Rockwell's best-known works of art".
  • "These paintings generally are viewed with this sentiment." Perhaps "This view still generally prevails today" or similar.
Rockwell etc.
  • " who by the 1950s" suggest "and by the 1950s" I am surprised to learn that magazines were more popular than newspapers. Or radio, for that matter.
  • "Lorimer" You should introduce by full name and possibly by "former Post editor" or whatever his formal title was, instead of editor. Link if appropriate. I should also add the sentence about WWI seems a bit out of place and perhaps could be melded into material which is about the 1940s and 1950s better. Possibly something along the lines of the existing language about Lorimer and WWI, followed by "who had died in 19XX. During the first half of the 1940s, Rockwell's cover illustrations showed the human side of the American war effort. Unfettered by Lorimer's restrictions, Rockwell saw the opportunity to illustrate the Four Freedoms as an opportunity of a lifetime …"
  • "promote the war." to avoid the repeat of "war", I would substitute "American military effort" or similar.
  • I would break the penultimate sentence in this section after "Riveter", insert a period, and make the remainder its own sentence.
Roosevelt's etc.
  • I wonder if this should be the opening section, after the lede. It explains the FF, which is really the only thing in the section about Rockwell that goes unexplained in that section. Putting this first, and the Rockwell/WWII section second, might be a good idea.
  • Is there a difference between Roosevelt's Annual Message to Congress and the State of the Union? I know for many years presidents did not address Congress in person, but did he both address it and send a written message?
  • I think two different sources just referred to the same thing differently and I failed to smooth that out as you have noted. It should be better now.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:57, 23 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • " Nazi powers ruled over Western Europe" perhaps "Nazi Germany occupied much of Western Europe"
  • Consider moving the lengthy quote to a quote box.
  • Saying that the speech "served to awaken" the nation may be a bit strong. There was still quite a strong non-interventionist sentiment. Maybe "helped to awaken"?
  • "were not something the Roosevelt was able to achiever through simple legislation" delete "the" and change "achiever" to "achieve".
  • " E.g., Rose Hoyt" I would delete the E.g., put a comma after "Hoyt", and if she was the model for the grandmother (or whoever is serving the turkey" in Want, I would say so.
  • Production (that sounds rather mechanical, I often use that for coins. What about "Creation" as a section title?)
  • I would make the sentence about the move from New Rochelle the second in the paragraph, and clarify if Rockwell was referring to New Rochelle or Arlington as "the town" which was tinged.
  • "chose to depend upon the local citizens to perform as their amateur models" perhaps "chose to rely on local citizens to be their models". I would not describe them as amateur, as they did get paid and $15 was probably a good sum in Vermont at the time.
  • Gillis and Lorimer are mentioned before, linked for Gillis and unlinked for Lorimer".
  • "Spring" should not be capped in either use. "Rockwell had not been pleased with Stout. In the Spring of 1942, Rockwell had met the new Post editor, Ben Hibbs.[45]" I would delete as giving very little information. Rockwell's displeasure with Stout was clearly shared, or he would not have been (fired? might want to make clearer), but I don't think it's informative to the reader to mention the two men meeting. Also, seasons, like "spring" and "fall" are apparently to be avoided as confusing to those from Antarctica and elsewhere Down Under.
  • I think if you had things a bit more chronological in this article, I'd have fewer comments.
  • "the Pentagon" check, please to make sure that this is accurate, as the Pentagon was being built around then.
  • " but was accorded the floor as a matter of protocol." Maybe "but was given the floor, and was listened to, despite his solitary opposition" if the source will support.
  • "Note that some sources …" I would make this sentence a footnote.
  • Schaeffer has quite recently been given his full name and also linked. No need to repeat the link, anyway.
  • I would mention the patriotic gesture and travel to Washington before the bit about the Mayflower Hotel and looking for war work.
  • The bit about the BSA calendar may be too much detail
  • The quote from the OWI, could you check to make sure it is rendered properly?
  • "from the post" Cap and ital, please.
  • Mentioning that they would be published in the Post in advance of Hicks giving him two months to complete them would be good, I think, for reasons of continuity.
  • I think this is the proper chronology as it is. He first said he would accept the works and expected them to be completed in two months. Then he sent written confirmation.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:08, 25 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • "Rockwell's summer was full of distractions nonetheless." This should probably begin a new paragraph, and I'm not quite sure I get the "nonetheless".
  • "to check up on Rockwell's progress." Delete "up".
  • "This came despite OWI Graphics Division chief ... the men and women of the United States." This passage seems misplaced. I would either move to the chronological place it would go, or just footnote it. It's a bit of a detour. Also delete the comma before "Francis".
  • "military news" maybe "news of Allied setbacks"
  • If Mr. Martin was one of the prominent figures (either the standing man or the older man to his left) in Speech, I would say it. Or the grandpa (standing) in Want.
  • "Some sources published" This paragraph is rather tangential and perhaps could be included in a shorter form as a footnote.
  • "The series arrived in Philadelphia January 1943." There is a missing word in this sentence, but it could be usefully merged with the previous one.
  • "Roosevelt instructed the Post to have the OWI have the essays translated into foreign languages so that they could be presented to leaders at the United Nations.[71]" I find this dubious. WHAT United Nations? It wasn't formed until 1945.
Suggest "Allied leaders" or "world leaders" in place of UN.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:37, 30 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • "They were published in sequential weeks in the order presented by Roosevelt in his speech. " Perhaps you could both supply dates and remind the reader of that order without them having to page back by adding a sentence following the above listing the four works and their dates of publication in the Post.
Aftermath
  • " full-color reproductions with both the essay and painting in sets of four for $0.25 ($3.37 in 2014 dollars[40]), the cost of production." this is a bit awkward (also you are ending the sentence with a comma) Perhaps "sets, including both the essays and full-color reproductions of the paintings, which the Post sold at cost for $0.25" I also note that this gives a ratio between 2014 dollars and 1942 of about 13.5, which sounds reasonable. However, Mrs. Hoyt's wages were converted into 2014 dollars at a rate of about 4.8. I suspect the 13.5 is correct. Please adjust and check other $$ figures.
  • "and on postage stamps by the United States Postal Service" Other than the issue in the 1990s, I'm not aware of US stamps depicting the FF paintings. You got more details? Stamps were usually monochrome then, by the way. Also, I'm not sure what's being talked about with the covers. Covers are envelopes. I'm not aware of any widespread use of the FF paintings on patriotic covers.
  • From what I can tell on eBay the 1943 Four Freedoms stamps were not Rockwell designs, which does not preclude these Four Freedoms from serving as their commemorative cover.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:31, 26 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • I just don't remember ever seeing any covers using Rockwell's design. Very possible they did, haven't followed philately in quite a while.--— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wehwalt (talk • contribs) 10:56, 27 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • "Eventually, 25 million people bought Rockwell's Four Freedoms prints by the end of the 20th century." You can have the eventually, or you can have the "by the end of the 20th century". You can't have both.
  • "Massachusetts Congressman Edith Nourse Rogers" Suggest "Representative" for "Congressman" (or Rep. Rogers' parents have a lot to answer for!
  • "Rockwell did contemplated race relations" First, there's a typo. Second, I don't think that Rockwell's civil rights works can be dismissed that easily. Given his popularity, his Post covers, showing for example a little black girl being escorted into a school she is integrating by state troopers, are meaningful and probably did not make him popular in the South.
War Bond etc.
  • You are not consistent in your capitalization of "War Bond".
  • There was one use of war bond that seemed off.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:56, 27 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • "sold during the War Bond show".--Wehwalt (talk) 11:37, 30 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • "such as aircraft carrier exhibits" What is that? I would think the aircraft carriers were all busy and unavailable for public relations tours.
  • " They boost patriotism and are a good marketing device for drumming up support." This sentence is incongruously in the present tense.
  • You are not consistent in whether "the" before "Post" is capitalized.
  • In the account of the Second War Bond Drive, it should be mentioned early on that what was donated and displayed was Rockwell's original oil paintings of the FF.
  • "2000 daily poster requests" Should be 2,000 per WP:MOSNUM. I believe Washington, D.C. is proper (i.e., with the comma)
  • "gallant festivities". That's a new one on me.
  • It's an unusual phrasing, but I guess it's understandable and to my mind that falls within editor's discretion. I sometimes draw people's attention to stuff which is not clearly wrong.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:56, 27 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • "with festivities that included Kate Smith." that is, her singing.
  • Then I would say "with festivities featuring Kate Smith". I didn't like the word "included".--Wehwalt (talk) 10:56, 27 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • "$18.533 Million" lower case million
  • "Rockwell is widely credited with contributing to the success of the war effort.[12] However, Rockwell only took part in the war bond tour when it was convenient for his other interests.[104] He did not travel with the tour which lasted a year.[96]" Well, given that he did the paintings there was no show without him. And this passage feels a little POV to me. Rockwell, after all, had to make a living and fulfill his contract for magazine covers, among other things. This wasn't a paid gig, even if there was a war on.
  • I am trying to be neutral. I say he is given lots of credit by some but he didn't do as much as you might think. Not sure how else to present this content.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:39, 27 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • Which raises another question. Was Rockwell paid for the paintings, under his contract with the SEP? That should probably be clarified somewhere in the article.
  • I think you are looking for something like Rockwell was paid $XXX per cover, which I have not seen in the sources I have looked at, although I presume he was in fact paid.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:41, 27 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
Critical etc.
  • "Furthermore," "Also," I'm not quite clear what argument is being made that is being fortified through the additional points. Regardless, I think the first paragraph, which deals with the artistic view of Rockwell, rather than with the FF specifically, could be cut considerably.
  • I would cut the last paragraph of the second paragraph. That has nothing to do with the paintings, and the paragraph would end more strongly on the previous sentence.
  • The third paragraph feels a bit back and forth between those who like and those who don't. Perhaps favorable comments should be grouped together, unfavorable likewise.
  • The phrase "Some say" is just begging for a {{who}}*:: tag.
  • "Claridge feels" You have not yet introduced us to this worthy.
  • "children and grandchildren" perhaps just "family members".
  • "artworld" art world
  • "Some found Rockwell's presentation somewhat patronizing, but most were satisfied. " Then or now? And I find this a bit of a sweeping generalization.
  • "the situation in which the sum is greater than its parts" perhaps a bit awkward, "the whole (or sum, if you must) being greater than its parts" (that is, delete the first four words".
Provenance
  • I'm not certain why the section name is what it is.
  • "I would summarize what the preservative does much more succinctly. Or simply, "conservation work".
  • I have cut "natural light, artificial light, abrasion, airborne pollutants, dust, grime and humidity" to "various elements" and "paint loss, crackling, fissures, and paint build-ups popping off" to "wear" and changed "to be glazed with Tru Vue Optium Museum Acrylic" to "for conservation work".--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:55, 27 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
Exhibits
  • I think the description of the contents of the book is too detailed, given that the book does not seem to be independently notable.
  • I think you should say "For example" rather than "E.g."
  • I think I read that Rockwell painted himself into Want, he is one of the people at the dinner table. Anything on that?
That is all I have for now. It is a very good effort but could have benefitted from more eyes before coming to FAC.Wehwalt (talk) 18:30, 22 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for taking a look at this. I will begin looking at your comments tonight.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:24, 22 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

I have a few more comments, sorry and please bear with me through this. I'll move most comments to talk once I'm done.

  • I"ve gone through it. Let me know if anything is unresolved above from your point of view.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:56, 27 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
Lede
  • "he asked the American citizens to support war efforts in various ways." I'm sure he would not have said war in so many words, as the United States was not yet at war. Possibly cast in terms of foreign policy?
Rockwell etc.
  • "These four Rockwell artistic expressions were said to have led to the adoption of Roosevelt's Four Freedoms as a goal." This feels odd as the paintings postdate Roosevelt's speech. Possibly you mean by the public, and I'm not sure I would say "adoption" in that case. Maybe "acceptance"?
  • "During much of the first half …" I would move this sentence, which is a bit out of place where it was, to be the first sentence of the following paragraph, however, cutting the words "During much of the first half of the 1940s", so beginning "Rockwell …" Please remove the words "war efforts" from the following sentence if you do this, as it would be repeating the phrase and should not be a plural in any case.
  • "endorsed war bonds, encouraged women to work, and encouraged men to enlist in the service. " perhaps "promoted war bonds, and encouraged women to work and men to enlist in the service.
  • "characters Willie Gillis" should be "character" now, as you've shifted to a depiction of Rosie. BTW, two depictions of Gillis (the one where he's on KP duty and reading his hometown paper, and the last one, where he is at college), are among the Rockwell covers I have framed.
  • I have some coffee table books on Rockwell, but nothing really scholarly, but we'll talk.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:37, 30 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • "In 1941" Perhaps precede with "When it entered the conflict …" as for much of 1941, the US presumably had no use for war propaganda. No doubt it was there, but it likely wasn't called that.
  • You lower case "four freedoms" at least twice in this part of the article. Please go through the article and review your uses of the phrase and make sure it is as you want it in terms of caps and italics.
  • I notice you say that Lorimer died in 1937, and, separately, that he ceased to be editor in 1936. Correct?
  • "and then in 1942 Rockwell decided to use his Vermont neighbors" perhaps cut "then in 1942". The year is known to the reader.
  • "He spent three days making charcoal sketches of the series,[51] which some sources describe as color sketches." perhaps just say he spent the days making sketches, with the dispute, presumably arcane to the reader, either deleted or footnoted.
  • "found himself being solicited" perhaps cut to "was asked". As it is now, it carries an air that the BSA's request was unwelcome, and they had some nerve making it. This might be usefully merged to the discussion of the distractions that Rockwell endured.
  • This is not one of those distractions. Doing the calendar was a later distraction, but being asked to do it was not one of the distractions.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:59, 29 January 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • "as the two sought commission to design war art" commissions.
  • I would clarify he was given no work by the OWI. perhaps "turned away, and told …" The OWI story arc could be better organized. Rockwell wanted to help, for free, he was turned away, the OWI was overruled (by whom, by the way? Who gave the order for Rockwell's work to be used?), they resigned, and the paintings go on to be some of the great wartime posters ever.
  • "and he gave Rockwell two months to complete the works.[56] A June 24 correspondence from The Post clarified that both Rockwell's and Scheaffer's series would be published." several issues. See prior comment on this point. I think saying he was "taken with them" just means he liked them, it doesn't mean he was putting them in the SEP, you should be more explicit on this point.. Also, "A correspondence" doesn't work, and you have not to my recollection previously mentioned Scheaffer's series so I have no idea what you are talking about.
  • "accompanying essay(s)" Since the (s) ending is unusual in formal prose, I think it should be avoided if possible. If it was not certain how many essays there would be, I would say "accompanying text", or maybe "prose" for "text". I gather that at some point it changed from the essays being written by Roosevelt to being written by prominent writers, and that should be mentioned in the article.
  • "an undisclosed surgery" perhaps "a surgery of uncertain nature" and add "though it was not performed" if applicable.
  • "The Post sent their art editor" I think "its" would be more common in American English.
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