Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Not to be confused with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian football.

Maps for future World Cups

The venue maps for future World Cups have changed massively, but in my opinion, for the worst. The new map with numbers is tiny and confusing. The first time this map was used was for the 2022 World Cup under the basis that not every stadium was displayed on the map due to Qatar being a small country, which made sense.

But future men's and women's World Cup hosts like Brazil don't need this map and a normal table would do a great job of showcasing the stadiums and cities together because every city and stadium can be displayed and seen perfectly well.

So while the numbered map works for Qatar, it doesn't translate at all well for other countries like Brazil and Saudi Arabia. I also don't believe that it a one or the other situation, because the map makes sense for Qatar, but not for Saudi Arabia.

I believe that it makes sense to revert back to the table format for the World Cup venues for countries who are hosting solo World Cups or just the amount of stadiums are fewer.

For example, for the 2027 FIFA Women's World Cup in Brazil, you don't a numbered map and this table below works perfectly.

Rio de Janeiro	Brasília	Belo Horizonte	Fortaleza
Estádio do Maracanã	Arena BRB Mané Garrincha (Estádio Nacional Mané Garrincha)	Estádio Mineirão	Arena Castelão
Capacity: 73,139	Capacity: 69,910	Capacity: 66,658	Capacity: 57,876
Porto Alegre	Belo Horizonte Brasília Fortaleza Porto Alegre São Paulo Rio de Janeiro Salvador Cuiabá Manaus Recife class=notpageimage| Location of the host cities of the 2027 FIFA Women's World Cup.		Salvador
Estádio Beira-Rio			Casa de Apostas Arena Fonte Nova (Arena Fonte Nova)
Capacity: 49,055			Capacity: 47,915
São Paulo	Recife	Manaus	Cuiabá
Neo Química Arena (Arena Corinthians)	Arena Pernambuco	Arena da Amazônia	Arena Pantanal
Capacity: 47,252	Capacity: 45,440	Capacity: 42,924	Capacity: 42,788

ILoveSport2006 (talk) 16:53, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah that makes sense. By the reason why a different map was used, was not because of the size of the country but because of copyright laws of the country preventing us from having free images of the stadiums. Tvx1 17:05, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Can you name a country that has copyright problems surrounding maps? Personally, I have never heard of that law before. ILoveSport2006 (talk) 18:38, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

It is not very common. Qatar is pretty strict: https://en.as.com/soccer/the-places-where-it-is-forbidden-to-take-photos-at-the-qatar-2022-world-cup-n/

This created a lot of big blank spaces in the map and @AFC Vixen worked on a new way to display the map. Personally, I find the new style to be better for mobile versatility. The huge map above is very hard to look at on a smartphone. It is so big and it doesn't adapt to smaller screens. Chris1834 Talk 19:27, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I have seen the new map/stadiums style on the phone and it doesn't adapt well either. While the map is better, you can't see the stadiums at all on the phone, so I don't think there is a clear or significant difference between both styles as they are both pretty squashed.

I use my laptop a lot more than my phone and I don't think that the slight improvement the new map makes for phone users is enough that laptop/computer users need to be hindered by the changes. ILoveSport2006 (talk) 20:55, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Not with the map! With images of the stadiums. There is no freedom of panorama in Qatar! Tvx1 10:18, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

@ILoveSport2006, Tvx1, and Chris1834: Personally, I loathe these table–map hybrids. They take extraordinary amounts of space and don't allow for sorting of data by name or capacity among other possible sortable data points. It's my understanding that most editors want images of every single venue used by a tournament, and I'm convinced that's the only reason these table–map hybrids are still widely used – there'd be no need for them otherwise. With that said, I did propose a compromise at Talk:2026 FIFA World Cup to retain a gallery of images using a carousel, though that didn't attract any response, and I've since discovered that it displays terribly on mobile. Otherwise, here's another idea of what I'd replace the above with:

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Many venues built for the 2014 FIFA World Cup, such as the Estádio Nacional (pictured), will be reused.

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1500km
900miles

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(Interactive map; click the ▢ to view)
Host cities nominated in the CBF's bid for the 2027 FIFA Women's World Cup.

2027 FIFA Women's World Cup venues

Host City	Venue	Capacity
1 Rio de Janeiro	Maracanã Stadium	73,139
2 Brasília	Estádio Nacional Mané Garrincha	69,910
3 Belo Horizonte	Mineirão	66,658
4 Fortaleza	Castelão	57,876
5 Porto Alegre	Estádio Beira-Rio	49,055
6 Salvador	Arena Fonte Nova	47,915
7 São Paulo	Neo Quimica Arena	47,252
8 Recife	Arena Pernambuco	45,440
9 Manaus	Arena da Amazônia	42,924
10 Cuiabá	Arena Pantanal	42,788

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

I'd like to direct particular attention to the use of images in the map, which is another idea I had for a compromise – I suspect most editors don't know images can be added to an {{OSM Location map}}. In articles where appropriate, a column in the wikitable noting whether the venue was pre-existing, built for the tournament, upgraded, ect. would also be helpful. — AFC Vixen 🦊 03:52, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I honestly don't think having images of each venue on the tournament page adds much. --SuperJew (talk) 04:01, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it does. I honestly don’t prefer the proposed alternative at all. I’m als honestly puzzled by the claims that the classic format has visibility issues on mobile devices. I’m watching it and typing this on my smartphone and I have no issue seeing it. Tvx1 10:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Hopefully this screenshot from my device can illustrate it for you. Compare this with screenshots of the article and map format I proposed above. Nevermind even the glaring issue of {{Location map+}} forcing a width size for the centre two columns, consider just the fact that only a portion of the table–map even fits on the screen at a legible page size. — AFC Vixen 🦊 10:44, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

As I have mentioned before, while on my phone, the map is fine but the stadium pictures are squashed so the new map/stadium system virtually does nothing. I also don't think it is fair that the maps got changed because one or two people do not like it. That's not enough input to change it for everyone. This talk page already has differing opinions. Personally, I think the table–map hybrids is great and should be kept. As far as I know, there was never any consensus that the new map style was the way to go for every tournament onwards. ILoveSport2006 (talk) 18:00, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, these days with the preview of articles on hovering, you can see the image that way easily enough. Secondly, why are stadiums different than anything else? Why not have images of all the coaches? Or all the players? Tbh personally apart from a handful, I wouldn't recognise many venues from their aerial screenshot anyway. --SuperJew (talk) 11:30, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I have never needed the image for a stadium. If I want to know more about a particular stadium, I go to that article. This article is about the event and the stadium box is just massive when the stadium is a small part of the overall tournament. The relevant information about the stadium for this article is where it is and what the capacity is. The picture of the stadium is superfluous and doesn't really add necessary information for this tournament. Chris1834 Talk 13:20, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I think stadium pictures add a lot and and is a good way to differentiate each edition by showing a different set of venues. ILoveSport2006 (talk) 17:46, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

@SuperJew You are probably different to me, but I can recognise stadiums via their aerial screenshots. So for me, the pictures are useful. ILoveSport2006 (talk) 17:39, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

It's probably anyways an irrelevant point who can or can't recognise the stadiums from the pictures. But my point is expanded by what Chris1834 wrote. It gives an undue weight to the stadiums in comparison to other components of the tournament. --SuperJew (talk) 19:57, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

It is not because it shows that for me and maybe other people, the pictures ARE relevant. ILoveSport2006 (talk) 20:06, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree that the pics are not really needed. Kante4 (talk) 20:13, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Have to disagree, each venue is different and having a quick visual overview is helpful to potential readers. A sortable list with images is not an impossible proposition, plenty of FLs integrate images just fine. I also am opposed to burying images in the interactive maps, as they are not as obvious and intuitive to use; there's a reason we don't use dropdowns unless absolutely necessary. SounderBruce 05:44, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Chris1834, ILoveSport2006, Kante4, SuperJew, and Tvx1: Would you folks be opposed to me opening an RfC on whether or not we need images of all venues in a tournament article? I feel that it'd be important to resolve this particular issue first before further discussion, and that it'd be wise to gather opinions from readers and editors who aren't necessarily sports fans, nor regularly edit sports articles. — AFC Vixen 🦊 09:45, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

no opposition here :) --SuperJew (talk) 09:49, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

No problem. Kante4 (talk) 11:33, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like a great idea to provide more traction for this discussion. Chris1834 Talk 12:55, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Shouldn't we include @SounderBruce in the conversation also? ILoveSport2006 (talk) 11:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I mistakenly missed them when copy+pasting usernames. Apologies. — AFC Vixen 🦊 13:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

WAFF Championship articles

At what level are we going to have these too? I was having a quick little run through the new page feed and came across this page 2024 WAFF U-16 Championship, I really don't feel that the under 16s are that notable. On the template below there is Senior, that's okay for me, Under 23, I don't mind so much, Under-19, I don't really feel there is notability there, then there is Under-16, which I feel the whole lot is not notable and probably should be deleted. What are other peoples thoughts on this? Govvy (talk) 15:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

A case similar to what happened with the CAFA articles, even though the WAFF senior competition is longer-lasting. I personally have no problem with maintaining the U-16 competition, as long as there are sources. Svartner (talk) 23:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

FIFA Series

Hey, Elditya 029 (talk · contribs) is adding the FIFA Series to the honours section of footballers. It's a friendly competition which should not be added or? Kante4 (talk) 08:58, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Multiple champions? What a strange setup, I am not sure I quite get the tournament style. Govvy (talk) 12:30, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

It's definitely not an honour, the 'competition' is just a series of friendly matches. Should be removed from all honours sections. S.A. Julio (talk) 20:23, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Also (apart from Egypt Series), these are 4-team round robin, but each team plays only 2 others. -- SuperJew (talk) 21:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Removed it from all articles i could find. Kante4 (talk) 17:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Dukla Prague

Would some of you footy Wiki afficionados mind heading over to Talk:FK_Dukla_Prague#Merge_proposal. I'll be plainly honest, I was looking for the Dukla Prague in Europe article to see their results, there isn't one in English but I found it in Czech and some other languages; but I also noticed that Dukla Prague and FK Dukla Prague are treated as one in the Czech Wikipedia and some others but not in English, which seems a bit odd. I wondered if it was us at English wiki being a bit fussy & pedantic with legal technicalities, if it was a dated oversight, or if fans of the Czech club over there were being a bit overenthusiastic. Please don't bite my head off for querying this, if you feel like doing so I can guarantee you any reason you have for rejecting (or accepting) the merge 'suggestion' isn't as obvious or straightforward to outside non WP Football folk as you think. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• This is a common situation in some countries, especially Belgium: an old club goes defunct, someone takes an unrelated club and gives it the old clubs' colours, badge and stadium. It's a bit different from the situation where a completely new phoenix club is created after the old one goes defunct; this seems common in Italy. I think it's probably wise to keep the two Dukla Pragues apart, actually. Geschichte (talk) 11:05, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Christian Wood (soccer)

I was trying to do some searches on the guy, but too many other people with the same name were getting in the way of searches, I was considering sending the article to AfD, unless someone else decides to do that, or someone can find decent sources or not. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 18:49, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm struggling - most sources about the basketball player? I suggest send to AFD. GiantSnowman 19:06, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Note that there are two redirect targets as well, All-time Rochester Rhinos roster and 2022 Rochester New York FC season. Since he only played one season for one team. Geschichte (talk) 11:02, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Alas, I am not impressed with either of those for a redirect, does the season article even pass NSEASONS? The all time roster, is that nessessary? It's just a list, doing what a category already does. And certainly lacks sourcing. Anyway, I've decided to send the article to AfD, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian Wood (soccer). Cheers. Govvy (talk) 12:38, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The 'Roster' is probably the best target. GiantSnowman 18:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

This guy seems even less notable. Geschichte (talk) 07:49, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Proposal for a Leeds United task force

Hi, all. If you are interested in helping to improve coverage of articles related to Leeds United, please consider joining a proposed task force. I've created a pilot page which illustrates some objectives. Any questions, please ask. Thank you. PearlyGigs (talk) 09:46, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

As someone who has been heavily involved in the Manchester United task force over the years, I'll say that I doubt a Leeds United task force would get sufficient membership to warrant creation. I suggest you create to-do lists in your own userspace. What would creating a task force actually help you to do that you can't do without one? – PeeJay 17:24, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with PeeJay, this project is a task force, if you ever need help with something just ask here. Everyone else has different clubs, but overall, a lot of people have resources that can help you if you're looking for something. Govvy (talk) 17:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Jim Fraser

Hi football fans, doing some research into the 1968–69 European Cup Winners' Cup. Seems like a Jim Fraser scored for Dunfermline in the semi finals. Wonder if it is the same Jim Fraser as Jim Fraser (Scottish footballer), currently an unsourced stub with no Dunfermline details in the infobox, or category, but who was at least playing in the Scottish league during the period. Found a few sources [1][2][3] but unclear if this refers to the same individual. Any help appreciated. Thanks, C679 08:35, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Cloudz679: - see [4]. It's not the same guy -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:55, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Results-by-round

Back with a vengeance, thanks to ChampsRT (talk · contribs). I believe our stance was that these are useless due to fixtures being postponed and being played out of sync, hence giving a false snapshot of league positions? Seasider53 (talk) 12:31, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

If someone wants to know a team's results by round, they can just look at the list of results. It's a pointless duplication of information. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 12:36, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't bother me so much, but it is kinda replication of data. There are also grounds you could class it as a breach of WP:OR. But I honestly can't remember if we had a consensus against them or not. Govvy (talk) 12:43, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I understand that you can look at the list of results, but wouldn't it be more clear to summarise it all in a table? Lets say if you want to check out how a team did in the previous season, you can also see what position they were in a a certain point of the season and how many points they had at that stage.

As for fixtures postponed, we can always adjust the rounds played, and we can record the positions either after the weekend fixtures or the weekday ones. I believe the results by round is a clear and concise way to show how a team performed in a season. ChampsRT (Profile • Talk) 00:35, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I recall being a part of the previous discussion, and the consensus at the time was that "results by round" tables are discouraged precisely for the reasons cited by Seasider53. For example, if the Manchester Derby were to be postponed, the "Round X" results of Man U and Man City would not be accurate. The match is still officially part of "Round X" even if it is played during the week of "Round Q" two months later. While not WP:OR, it introduces misleading information since it appears that a result was recorded during the season before it actually occurred. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 00:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

If they are postponed, we can change the order of the round numbers, such as moving round 18 to be behind round 27 etc. As for the rankings for that round, we can record the position at the time where the match finished for the affected teams, whilst the unaffected teams will have their position recorded on the next gameweek they play. ChampsRT (Profile • Talk) 05:36, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

All of the above sounds very much like OR to me. It would be valid to show the team's position as at specific listed dates, but basing things on this nebulous concept of "gameweeks"/"round numbers" and arbitrarily moving matches around just smacks of OR -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

If you wish to include a team's league position after the match, there are ways to do that within the list of results and that should achieve your aims without the need for an extra table. See 2023–24 Kilmarnock F.C. season#Premiership as one example. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 08:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

List of domestic football league broadcast deals by country

Would anyone object to this article going to AfD? Govvy (talk) 13:25, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Nm, I decided to send it to AfD anyway if anyone is interested. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of domestic football league broadcast deals by country. Govvy (talk) 17:17, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for D.C. United

D.C. United has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 14:11, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

RfC at WikiProject Sports

An RfC at WikiProject Sports is currently seeking a consensus on whether images of all venues in a tournament should be presented in a tournament article's § Venues section. Feel free to join in and share your thoughts! — AFC Vixen 🦊 15:27, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

List of foreign footballers in the Persian Gulf Pro League

Is this normal? I've never seen a list of foreigners in the Premier League, seems wrong somehow. Govvy (talk) 08:16, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

It's at List of foreign Premier League players. There are loads of such articles -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:29, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Blimey, that Premier League one is outdated, I don't know, seems pointless to me, because the list would be off the chart and paradoxical. Govvy (talk) 08:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

It has no sources at all (as does its partner 1920-2000 one) and would almost certainly be deleted at AfD unless such a source exists. Black Kite (talk) 09:19, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it's highly unlikely that a single source exists listing all foreign PL players for its entire 30+ year history, so you'd potentially be looking at individually sourcing well over 2500 players, a number which is of course going to continue to balloon given that dozens of new foreign players join the PL every season..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Actually I stand corrected, the one and only source in the article does actually allow users to bring up all PL players of any given nationality using filters. There's probably still the question of whether we need an article listing nearly 3000 players.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:37, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Would be perfectly fine with deleting these for every league. They're mostly just trivia- especially for large leagues like the Premier League where a large percentage of players are foreign. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:17, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I feel like for some leagues, such as the Premier League, where foreign players are a large percentage and there are no (afaik?) restrictions on foreign players, there isn't much point to such an article. However, there are many smaller leagues which have restrictions on number of foreign players and then such pages are more managable and also more notable. --SuperJew (talk) 10:30, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Not to mention the constant need to maintain these lists, shall we have a quick consensus, on who is for deleting, to start with List of foreign Premier League players? Govvy (talk) 10:52, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Is that any different than the constant need to maintain squad lists (both in club articles and in the navboxes)? I don't disagree about the need, but I don't think it is a relevant consideration if to keep or delete. --SuperJew (talk) 11:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Joao Ortiz#Requested move 9 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Joao Ortiz#Requested move 9 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 08:01, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:2023 USL Championship Playoffs#Requested move 9 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:2023 USL Championship Playoffs#Requested move 9 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 08:05, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Jack Clarke (footballer, born 2000) stats?

They don't much up with soccerway however I think they match up with soccerbase, maybe someone who is better with stats can double check its all okay. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 10:42, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it's just that Soccerway include playoffs in with regular season matches, but Soccerbase don't and neither does Wikipedia. The stats look OK to me. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:13, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

k, don't know why soccerway does that, cheer Struway. Govvy (talk) 17:25, 25 August 2024 (UTC)