Wikipedia talk:Drafts/Archive 14

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Split into help page and guideline

Wikipedia:Drafts currently tries to do things. The first two sections give basic information on how to use the draft namespace, and are aimed at (presumably newish) article creators. The remaining are an essay or proto-guideline outlining when articles can be draftified and when drafts can be deleted, aimed at more experienced editors and NPP/AfC reviewers. I think it would be more useful for both audiences if they were presented separately.

I propose we move the first two sections to Help:Drafts, leave the rest here at Wikipedia:Drafts, and update the leads accordingly. I don't know if having an identical name in two namespaces might be too confusing – in that case we could consider alternative titles like Help:Using drafts, Wikipedia:Draft namespace, or Wikipedia:Draft process. – Joe (talk) 09:53, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I see where you are coming from but I don't think there is enough content to justify a WP:split and splitting would make things more confusing. Looking at the WP:Redirect guideline, there is quite a bit of basic and "how to" type information. While it does have an accompanying HELP:Redirect page, I can see why. First, WP:Redirect is double the size of this page and the help page is extensive so would overwhelm the main page. That's not the case here. If it is split, it should be other way. This page should remain the basics, as it has been since it's inception back in December 2013. S0091 (talk) 16:22, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think splitting the other way would make much sense? Editing guidelines like WP:DRAFTIFY would be totally out of place in the help namespace. – Joe (talk) 12:26, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I didn't mean the new page should be in the help namespace. If there is split, which I don't think is warranted, this page should remain the basics and the title of the new page something else. S0091 (talk) 14:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I notified the Teahouse and Helpdesk about this discussion given if this is split they need to know so they can direct editors to the correct page(s) and may also have helpful input. In addition I notified AfC and NPP. S0091 (talk) 17:41, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I have been thinking along these lines myself for a little while now. I think it definitely would be confusing to have both a Help:Drafts and a Wikipedia:Drafts, so we can workshop a proposed title if the split is supported by consensus. It would also potentially define the scope of a page that could be codified as a true guideline in the future, which would be helpful in the process of formalizing a lot of the sometimes nebulous processes that NPP and AfC use. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 17:43, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

This essay seems to be trying to make up rules for AFC and NPP moving articles into draftspace. Due to the 90 day limit, almost always shorter than the NPP que, drafts is generally unusable by and irrelevant to NPP. And AFC is inherently dealing with articles already in draft so they don't move articles to draftspace. North8000 (talk) 18:03, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with your assertion that this page is "irrelevant to NPP". Draftification by NPP-ers occurs on a daily basis, as not all of us are always looking at the back of the queue. As AfC's process often overlaps with NPP's, the page is relevant to both groups. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 18:14, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The essay/potential guideline is relevant to anyone who can create drafts, nominate them for deletion (CSD or MFD) and/or move pages. Any new editor/IP can create drafts or nominate them for deletion. Any autoconfirmed editor can draftify an article and it's one the default WP:MOVE reasons ("Move to draftspace (WP:DRAFTIFY)"). S0091 (talk) 18:19, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@TechnoSquirrel69: Good point, although my post isn't just about the back end of the cue. The very back of the cue (currently 5 years) is usually a few outliers but the age where there is a large quantity amount yet to be done is somewhere around 9 months. I tend to work where the creators have had a reasonable amount of time to deal with tags placed during a first NPP pass, and those are all older than 90 days. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:28, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@North8000: I don't think this page is "making up rules" any more than any other essay or guideline. The core of WP:DRAFTIFY dates back to c. 2017, has been incorporated into the NPP guidelines at WP:NPP for about as long (so NPP reviewers are generally expected to follow it), and subsequent modifications reflect a high degree of consensus. Some parts e.g. (WP:DRAFTOBJECT) summarise existing policies (i.e. WP:EW/WP:CONSENSUS). Personally I think it is overdue an upgrade to an official guideline and that is why I trying to to tidy up presentational issues like this. NPP reviewers are by far the most frequent users of draftification, which you can see for yourself here. In any case, I don't see how this is relevant to my proposal to split the page? – Joe (talk) 12:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joe Roe: I think that I should just say I'm neutral on this and step back. But to explain what I was thinking, a guideline is somewhat of a rule in Wikipedia, more so than anything except a policy. So talking about a new guideline is sort of creating rules (including turning standard practices into guidelines). The other thing is drafts is a place. I'm thinking that the main areas regarding rules/guidelines that are unique to draft space would be what isn't allowed to be in draft space (due to e.g. content or elapsed time) and regarding moving an article out of mainspace into draft space. And if a new guideline goes outside of that it is going to be overlapping with something else. For example, regarding moving into article space, that's really about rules about what can exist in article space, not about drafts. Again, I'm neutral on this. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joe Roe, I'm not really sure the first two paragraphs are aimed at new editors. If they are, they really fall short of the mark - I don't think the "Finding Drafts" section, in particular, is very newbie-friendly. So I'm not sure this needs to be split anywhere, since we have lots of more newbie-friendly guides on article creation. I do think "Creating and editing drafts" ought to be the first section, though, since it is the more newbie-friendly of the two (also I feel like "creating" ought to come before "finding"). -- asilvering (talk) 21:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose split because I agree with @Joe that the better discussion to have is how to improve this page and make it a guideline. I also agree with @asilvering that § Creating and editing drafts should be moved up. If I were a new editor trying to create a draft, that's what I would be immediately looking for. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Moving drafts to mainspace - no mention of review?

I was trying to find information on this page on how to review drafts - and failed. Sigh. This (Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Reviewing instructions) should be mentioned in this (too short currently) section. _{Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here} 04:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. I added the section Wikipedia:Drafts#Reviewing a draft just now. Feel free to take a look. –Novem Linguae (talk) 04:45, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I have edited your addition in various ways, please take a look. —Alalch E. 11:21, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for those edits. I'm not sure about the new section heading and section location. The rest looks good. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:46, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I changed the headings to reintroduce the term "review" and added Deletion review as another draft review venue (an exceptional one albeit). —Alalch E. 14:41, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The result is all bloat, so I cut it. Anyone looking for information here on reviewing drafts is not ready to be reviewing drafts. Enough information is implicit that any user can do it, but if a user can’t read that, they should go through the usual channels. The link to WP:AfC is sufficiently prominent. SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:48, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

@SmokeyJoe: The sections "As part of Articles for Creation" and "As part of Deletion review" were also added during this discussion so please review those for bloatiness too. —Alalch E. 11:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I think “As part of Articles for Creation” is good, but “As part of Deletion review” is not. WP:Drafts should not be defining anything about DRV, and I don’t think any newcomer to drafts should be encouraged to worry about DRV.

Avoiding bloat is important. The more words there are, the less likely they are to be read. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I've removed that section. However, how about restoring the second sentence from what you've removed: "A draft does not belong to the editor who created it, and any other user may edit, move, rename, redirect, merge or seek deletion of any draft.{{refn|group=note|name=editing policy|Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Editing policy|editing policy]] applies to all pages, including drafts.}}" I think that sentence is good. It had been there prior to this discussion. —Alalch E. 11:59, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Actually it's covered by the later-added "Non-AfC reviewers should not accept, decline, or reject drafts using the gadget and templates, but may still edit or move the drafts as normal editor actions". I'll just restore the note there. —Alalch E. 12:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

So you are saying we need to hide information on reviewing drafts? How much less user friendly can we make Wikipedia? This page like many others is already bloated to a point nobody reads them. If someone wants to learn about reviewing drafts, it is reasonable they'd go to WP:DRAFT, CTRL+F for 'review' - and they should find something useful quickly. Which is not a case right now :( _{Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here} 07:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

For the review of submitted drafts see <this link> (where, in the AfC WikiProject, it’s described).

Drafts don’t have to be reviewed. Most drafts don’t get reviewed. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:47, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Something short like this would be enough. _{Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here} 02:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

If this page is already bloated to the point that nobody reads it (though note that above, people are also saying that it's too short to split), it doesn't follow me that we should add further instructions for a process that is not a core part of draftspace and which is already covered elsewhere. – Joe (talk) 11:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that instructions for reviewing (AfC) drafts should remain with WikiProject AfC. Seeking review from another editor is not an intrinsic part of draftspace and many would say that it should be avoided if at all possible. The review process is a part of AfC, which is one but not the only user of draftspace. Indeed, AfC operated just fine without draftspace for many years. – Joe (talk) 19:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree.

To User:Alalch E., for observations, comparisons and contrasts, of DRV and draft reviews, I think they are very interesting and worth recording, just not here. I suggest an essay. SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this too. I think it's fine both with and without this subsection. The only thing I actually don't agree with and which was the precursor to what you removed was a previous addition corresponding to the start of this talk section (that I changed into the AfC subsection), which said that AfC is a "formal process" and that AfC reviewers "officially accept" drafts, which is a terminology that I don't agree with. AfC is an optional process and as such it is not formal or "official".

@SmokeyJoe: Yes, I might write an essay, thanks.—Alalch E. 21:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)