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Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Roads/Assessment/A-Class review/Pennsylvania Route 652

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The article has been promoted to A-class. All issues were addressed and consensus says support. -- M*gill*FR (blab to me) 21:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pennsylvania Route 652 edit

Pennsylvania Route 652 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) review

Suggestion: No suggestion given regarding A-Class
Nominator's comments: This, if I am correct, will be the first actual A-class review for a Pennsylvania road article. Anyway, Route 652 is a better article than most I've written, so right now I'd like to see it come to A-class.
Nominated by: Mitch32(UP) 13:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First comment occurred: 18:29, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose for now.
  • Pennsylvania Traffic Route 652 (designated by the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation as SR 0652) is a 10.57 miles (17.01 km) long east-west state highway located in northeast Pennsylvania. - "east-west" needs an endash.
  • The western terminus of the route is at U.S. Route 6 in the Texas Township community of Indian Orchard. - short, choppy sentence.
  • The state highway originated as U.S. Route 106, when U.S. Routes were first assigned in 1926. - remove the comma.
  • The state highway originated as U.S. Route 106, when U.S. Routes were first assigned in 1926. The route, however, was assigned as a state highway in 1920. SR 652 was once assigned south of the alignment, down in the northern suburbs in Philadelphia. - is it possible to cut back on the use of the word "assigned"?
  • SR 652 remained on that alignment until 1946. SR 652 was reassigned onto U.S. Route 106 alignment in 1972. - merge these sentences.
  • State Route 652 begins at an intersection with U.S. Route 6 in the borough of Indian Orchard.State Route 652 begins at an intersection with U.S. Route 6 in the borough of Indian Orchard. - clarify that this is on the eastern end.
  • The route progresses northward, leaving the borough rather quickly and passes through some of the less dense parts of Wayne County. - this sentence makes little sense. The road doesn't move, so how can a leave a location "quickly"? Also, what does "less dense" mean? Are the forests less dense? The population?
  • Not too long after, SR 652 enters the borough of Bethel, where it intersects with several local roads. - "not too long after" → "shortly after".
  • The population along the highway is not at a large amount, with dwellings along the highway becoming more spontaneous. - I don't get it. Is "not at a large amount" really encyclopedic language? Also, what does "spontaneous" imply within this context? Are the houses spontaneously built?
  • There is a short increase in the area populations as the route continues northward. - "short" → "small", and "area populations" doesn't read well. In addition, this is original research, as maps don't include population or density demographics.
  • In Berlin Township, Route 652 intersects with the Honesdale and Big Eddy Turnpike, a pre-state route system turnpike in Wayne County. - we already know SR 652 is in Wayne County, no need to repeat it here.
  • The highway turns eastward in Atco, dropping to the south a short while later. - dropping in elevation?
  • The route continues into Darbytown, nearing the Delaware River. - link Darbytown.
  • New York State Route 52 and Sullivan County Route 24 continue on the other side of the border. - this seems irrelevant.
  • In 1972, US 106 was deleted and replaced with the PA 652 designation between Indian Orchard and the Delaware River. - "deleted" is an odd word choice.
  • PA 652 was initially assigned in 1928 to a series of local streets in the northwestern suburbs of Philadelphia. - remove "initially".
  • The southern terminus of the route was at the modern U.S. Route 30/Old Eagle School Road intersection on the Chester-Delaware county line near Devon to the west and Wayne to the east. - "Chester-Delaware" needs an endash.
  • PA 652 continued north on Gulph to the Valley Forge National Historical Park, where it terminated at Pennsylvania Route 23. - "Gulph"?
  • In 1946, PA 652 was turned over to the city of Philadelphia along its entire length, and all control of the roads went to local highway departments. - "turned over" → "transferred". Also, remove "all".
  • I know maps are fine to use as sources, but I'm not comfortable with having an article based solely on them. Are there any news articles on the road?

–Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 18:29, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Every comment is complete.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 23:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments *For the record the convert template in the lead paragraph needs the "adj=on" field set to force the template to not make the units plural. I did it for now.

  • I concur with Julian's comment, using pure map based sources is causing the article to not be complete, perhaps do a search in old newspapers?

*"where it intersects with several local roads. " If the roads aren't notable enough to be mentioned by name, are they notable enough to even mention?

  • I highly doubt the Yahoo maps actually sources this statement "Big Eddy Turnpike, a pre-state route system turnpike in Wayne County." Suggest finding a different source.
  • "This is an original entering Pennsylvania gantry" This is some rough wording. Also I would suggest calling it an older style gantry. To use the word original should have a source to show it.

Dave (talk) 07:10, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All comments are complete.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 23:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The western terminus of the route is at U.S. Route 6 in the Texas Township community of Indian Orchard, and the eastern terminus is at the New York-Pennsylvania border in Damascus Township, where PA 652 continues into New York as New York State Route 52. This is a run-on sentence I think.
  • State Route 652 begins at its eastern terminus – redundant.
I'll get to these comments as soon as my FAC ends. I have been very busy, but I didn't forget.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 20:55, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My issues are resolved. So I will Support. However, I would still like to see more non-map sources. For example, this statement is sourced with a map: "The current alignment of State Route 652 was classified as a state highway as early as 1920, nine years after the Sproul Road Bill was signed by the Pennsylvania State Legislature." While a map can be used to show the road existed by 1920, I doubt the map lists the date of passage of the Sproul Road Bill.Dave (talk) 01:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - Agreed with Davemeistermoab. – CG 01:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with nitpicks - Overall, not bad, some minor comments, though. I've made a couple very minor wording changes. You may want to check them over to make sure they're ok with you.
    • You may want to be a bit more consistent about "Route" vs. "State Route" vs. "SR" in the article.
    • Also, there's an instance of the word "decommission" in the first paragraph of "History." I don't particularly care about the whole "decommission" kerfluffle, but I'm just pointing it out and leaving it your choice.
    • For the map references, since most of them are only used one time, if possible you may want to point out in the reference the section of the map where what you're referring to can be found. - Algorerhythms (talk) 15:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - I have a few concerns with the article before I will support it for A-Class:
  1. In the first paragraph of the lead, indicate what county the route is in as well as that it crosses over the Delaware River into New York
  2. When the route was assigned as a state highway in 1920, did it have a number?
  3. In first sentence of route description, change "passes" to "passing"
  4. The sentences "The population along the highway is not dense, with dwellings located along the highway at certain points." and "There is a small increase in the area density as the route continues northward." sound awkward and confusing, rephrase
  5. "The highway continues to the northeastward" sounds awkward
  6. Clarify what the "one township road" is
  7. There is not an Atco borough in Pennsylvania, do you mean village?
  8. Clarify last sentence of route description by indicating route crosses Delaware River (provide name of span) and what it becomes once entering New York
  9. The portion of the original PA 652 is in Chester and Montgomery Counties, I do not understand how it can be transferred to the city of Philadelphia when it is outside the city limits.
  10. Perhaps add a little more detail to the Major intersections table, such as that the intersection with NY 52 is at the Delaware River crossing into New York Dough4872 (talk) 04:25, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 20:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I still have a small concern. The phrase "...gains the name as the Beach Lake Highway" sounds awkward. Dough4872 (talk) 15:37, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have fixed the awkward phrasing myself, so I will Support the article. Dough4872 (talk) 01:33, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved issues from  — master sonT - C 01:27, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments from Master son
    • Lead Section
    • Route Description
      • The RD depends nearly on maps for sources (save for one other) - can we get any additional sources?
      • There can be more wikilinking done here, Examples:
        • Bethel (towns)
        • Wayne County (counties)
        • Delaware River (This was linked in History, move it up)
    • History
    • Major Intersections
      • Is there an absolute need for this? It carries no more information than the infobox does. I believe that Junction tables should not be needed when the only junctions available are just the termini.
 — master sonT - C 15:29, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 20:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Ok, I'm good with it, I would have rather lost the Junction list than fill it up with very minor routes though. (see here as I'm posting it for further discussion. I don't wish to hold anything back for this.)

Comment SriMesh | talk 01:08, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  1. 10.57-mile ...No dash needed between numbers and mile, if one of the two conversion templates are not used ... there should be a non-breaking space - &nbsp; between a number and the unit of measurement...I see this is the way the template does the wording.
  2. The very first sentence in the lead states an alternate name...SR 0652.. which is not mentioned in the infobox under alternate name... Does SR stand for something?
  3. The first instance of U.S. should be stated United States and wikilinked
  4. The first use of PA should be following Pennsylvannia for those not from America and not familiar with state abbreviations.
  5. I like the travel description starting with letting the reader know that the highway goes through dense populations and "not at a dense spectrum, with dwellings surrounding the highway at certain points."...however it is a bit subjective. In reading highway articles I am finding that the 'less dense' areas of highways in the U.S. are in noways comparable to the 'less dense' areas of highways in Canada. For a short highway 10 km..there should be some factual census type numerical basis for what is your definition of dense and less dense.
  6. Does this segment a pre-state route system turnpike mean...the turnpike was make before the state was incorporated into the union...if so what was the date? or does it mean the turnpike was made before there was a state route system? if so when did the state have a route system?
  7. You guys in America are pretty talented building rivers in 1925...The first bridge bridge along the highway was the U.S. Route 106 bridge over a tributary to the Delaware River built in 1925. ...perhaps copyedit the sentence to The first bridge bridge along the highway, built in 1925, was the U.S. Route 106 bridge spanning a tributary of the Delaware River.
  8. I am confused ... a section begins saying the fact....Route 652 has a consistent stretch of three bridges that puts the highway together. then there is a concrete bridge over a Delaware tributary, a steel bridge over the Delaware proper, and two concrete bridges over Indian Orchard Brook... This makes four bridges not three.
  9. This sentence says The bridge crosses the tributary into New York on a 50.85 feet (15.50 m) span.[ the span I am thinking of means length...However the National Bridge Inventory in their article which you have cited as item 9 says the bridge is ...Structure Length: 7.9 m...? 9. National Bridge Inventory (2007)....
English encyclopedia, gotta use imperial standards in PA.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 23:23, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The next bridge says this fact The replacement cost for the bridge would to cost $238,000 (2005 USD), which takes an average of 6,804 people a year the citation which is itemized as 10 does support that cost for improvement in that year stated...not replacement though just fix the railing. And there is nowhere that the cited reference article which says 6,804 people a year are needed to fix the bridge I think the article was spammed. But it is good for a giggle... I just cannot imagine 6,804 people in one year fixing such an itsy bitsy teeny weeny bridge unless the folks in PA are going for a Guiness book of world records of most people laying conrete on a bridge railing.  ;-) Thank you 6804 commuters makes more sense. I still interpret the @238,000 cost to be that improvement needed to bring the bridge up to standard, and is not the full replacement cost.IMHO
I wrote a letter to the reference page folks, and will post the letter and reply on the article talk page if they reply ... for a primary source...SriMesh | talk 23:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  1. would to cost in sentence above is awkward.
  2. Have to take other references on good faith as I don't have the books, but with the mistakes found above, please re-read the books!
  3. Images all check out and are OK
  4. It is not stable until the discussion is resolved, there is no dispute on talk or history page, just a discussion template on the article... It has been suggested that this section be split into a new article entitled Pennsylvania Route 652 (1920s). (Discuss)
Done SriMesh.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 23:12, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hello there. Awesome job on the improvements, left a couple items not striked out to be re-looked at, and then I will certainly change my comment to support. Kind Regards SriMesh | talk 00:29, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Few things :)Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 23:23, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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