Wikipedia

Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Soviet cruiser Admiral Isakov

< Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history‎ | Assessment
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Cinderella157 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 02:20, 19 August 2018 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Soviet cruiser Admiral Isakov edit

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Kges1901 (talk)

Soviet cruiser Admiral Isakov (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Toolbox

This article is about a Soviet Cold War large anti-submarine ship, considered a cruiser by Western sources. This is one of my first major ship articles, part of an effort to improve the coverage of the Soviet Navy, and I welcome improvement suggestions. The article just passed a GAN and seems to be of the appropriate length comparing it to other Russian ship A-class articles. Kges1901 (talk) 19:15, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Some of the details in the infobox don't appear to be sourced anywhere in the article, possible to either add them or add cites there? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:35, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Think I've got everything; I decided that there only needed to be one figure for range in the infobox in line with other ship articles. Kges1901 (talk) 21:19, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Comments from Dank edit

  • "sank under tow en route to India for scrapping a year later": Looking quickly, I only see a shorter version of that in the text below the lead.

comments from auntieruth55 edit

  • the lead seems a bit skimpy for an A-class article....just MHO. I passed this at GA and he's made few changes. auntieruth (talk) 20:59, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead expanded. I will create the exercise articles shortly. Kges1901 (talk) 22:23, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from AustralianRupert edit

Support: G'day, nice work so far. I have a few suggestions/observations: AustralianRupert (talk) 08:07, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • there are no duplicate or dab links (no action required)
  • ext links all seem to work (no action required)
  • suggest adding alt text to the images, although this isn't a hard-and-fast requirement (suggestion only)
  • Added alt text to the profile drawing, infobox ship image does not allow for alt text. Kges1901 (talk) 21:04, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • in the infobox "4 30 mm", needs something separating the two sets of numerals (see for instance how it is done in Japanese battleship Ise). This applies to the other armament listings in the infbox
  • "91,000–100,000 shp" appears in the lead, but I couldn't find this range in the body of the article
  • Standardized on Hampshire's figure only since he used Russian sources while Chant was using Western intelligence analysts. Kges1901 (talk) 21:04, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She had Grom SA-N-1 fire control and MR-103 Bars AK725 fire control." --> "She had two Grom SA-N-1 and two MR-103 Bars AK725 fire control systems"?
  • Done. Placed designation of weapon system it guided in parenthesis. Kges1901 (talk) 21:04, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • the infobox says "MG-332T Titan-2T" sonar, but the body says both MG-332 and MG-35 sonars
  • "Following repairs at Sevastopol, Admiral Isakov, under the flag of Northern Fleet First Deputy Commander Vice Admiral Vladimir Kruglikov with the frigate Revny and Genrikh Gasanov, visited Havana and Cienfuegos between 2 and 10 December 1982 before returning to Severomorsk on 21 February 1983": this is a very complex sentence, and might be clearer if split
  • "the ship was sold to an Indian company for scrapping, but sank under tow en route": do we know which city/place the vessel was being towed to and from?
  • No, it was probably being towed to Alang but that would be OR.
  • I couldn't find any mention of Goblet or Silex missiles in the body of the article, although they appear in the infobox
  • As the Construction section is very small, I suggest just merging it into the career section (see for instance how it is done in the Japanese battleship Ise article)
  • the hyphenation for the isbn of the Chant work is slightly inconsistent compared with that of Belov and Hampshire
  • link "Displacement_(ship)#Standard_displacement" and "Displacement_(ship)#Light_displacement"

Source review edit

  • The few sources seem reliable, although I am AGF regarding the Russian ones. I do wonder if there are not better sources than an Osprey book (albeit a new one that claims to have looked at previously unavailable Soviet archives) for the Design aspects, for example Jane's Warsaw Pact Warships Handbook or Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1947-1982 Part 2 - The Warsaw Pact and Non-Aligned Nations. Perhaps @Parsecboy and Sturmvogel 66: can advise on the value of either of them and may be able to check if they have copies of either? Also there may be some useful stuff regarding the Soviet thinking about the employment of the ship in Oceans Ventured: Winning the Cold War at Sea by John Lehman. Perhaps check them both out before taking to FAC? Good to go. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:21, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure about the Jane's book and Conways because both are Cold War sources. Lehman only said the same thing that was in the news article that I mentioned in the article. Kges1901 (talk) 09:58, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't have either of those books, but Sturm does have Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1947-1995, which might have post-Cold War updates. I wouldn't expect the Cold War-era sources to be a whole lot of use. Parsecboy (talk) 14:12, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Conways does include a nice introduction covering the doctrine behind the evolution of Soviet ship types and states that the Kresta IIs were built to aid their SSBNs breaking though NATO submarine barriers into the Atlantic and Pacific, p. 345. Bibliographic info is on my library subpage. The best source for Soviet warships in English, IMO, is Pavlov's Warships of The USSR and Russia 1945-1995; but since that's based on Soviet sources I don't really think that it's necessary here as Russian-language sources are used. I'll try to do a full review of the article later today.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:04, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • I did cite the original Russian edition of Pavlov, as I have a copy of that. Kges1901 (talk) 17:34, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ian edit

Just started light copyedit, will aim to post any comments later today. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:18, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • suffering a boiler malfunction in the Norwegian Sea on 19 April -- Did this delay her arrival in Severomorsk (not by much obviously), and did it impact her initial tasking with the 120th Missile Ship Brigade? I just think that if we're highlighting the incident we should mention when/where repaired and any adverse effects.
  • Sources gives detail that it was repaired in 5 hours. I included it because it was used in another Russian source that repeated the same information with less detail, so thought it might be significant. Kges1901 (talk) 09:16, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • A NATO submarine was detected during the exercise, and the crew of her Ka-25 made their first night landing on a moving ship -- this reads almost like the Ka-25 landed on the NATO sub, which I presume is not meant -- perhaps expand/clarify.
  • On 27 May 1981 she rammed the British destroyer HMS Glasgow in the Barents Sea -- erm, deliberately or accidentally?

No particular concerns with structure or comprehensiveness (allowing for lack of expertise on the Soviet Navy). I'll take PM's source review and Nikki's image review as read. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:37, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Sturmvogel_66 edit

  • I cleaned up the infobox a little, but all measurements in the infobox need to be converted into English or metric as appropriate.
  • All converted. Kges1901 (talk) 11:29, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • You missed the measurements in the weapons section.
  • Give location of Zhdanov Shipyard in both the infobox and main body
  • What kind of length is given, waterline, overall, etc.? Be sure to link whichever one it is.
  • Done. Kges1901 (talk) 11:41, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • You've added a link, but not told the reader which kind in either the main body or the infobox. In the latter just add ([[o/a]]) after the info on the same line.
  • Link steam turbine, boiler, hangar, radar, sonar, (not the systems, but the terms) in the infobox
  • Endurance isn't the fuel capacity, but the range in nautical miles.
  • Removed, then, since range is in the range field. Kges1901 (talk) 11:41, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Add number of barrels for the AK-630 to the infobox.
  • Horsepower figure for a turbine would be shaft horsepower, so change hp in your conversions to shp.
  • Link class, Atlantic, Mediterranean, the various radar types (early warning, etc.) And link to the actual radars if they have articles.
  • Done. Only one system link possible. Kges1901 (talk) 09:59, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Convert displacement in the infobox and main body and link to full load displacement in the main body.
  • General rule is that everything linked in the infobox should be linked in the main body and vice versa.
  • Explain and link L/60 notation, Parsec's German ship articles usually have to do so, so you can copy his wording. More later.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:47, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I decided to remove it instead as Soviets don't use the L/notation since that is German, it is a Westernization from Chant. Kges1901 (talk) 11:41, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link and spell out DP in the armament section and converted the measurements here. Same with CIWS.
  • The Electronic warfare section is more appropriately named sensors. Do you have any information on actual electronic warfare systems fitted to her?
  • had no Vympel fire-control radar "lacked a" Vympel
  • Link Baltic, boiler, carrier group, oiler, aircraft cruiser, frigate, naval jack
  • Change and link trials as sea trials.
  • If you spell out sister ship on first use, you needn't use "sister Kresta-II class ship" and can just say sister.
  • How can a ship traverse an island? I suspect that you mean passed. traversing Jan Mayen
  • "rocket" cruiser/destroyer is normally rendered "missile" cruiser/destroyer in English.
  • Unless her commanders are notable, I see no need for the list of them, and if they are, they should be worked into the text.
  • I'd still like to see another sentence or so on her intended role if war broke out with NATO.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:26, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't have any more information than that they had a primarily anti-submarine mission. Presumably if war happened they would have operated with Soviet versions of hunter-killer groups built around the Kiev class, like in the exercises. I did add a bit more specific information to that sentence though. Kges1901 (talk) 22:50, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. Thanks for the help with sources. Kges1901 (talk) 00:08, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Assessment/Soviet_cruiser_Admiral_Isakov&oldid=855541826"