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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Operation Retribution (1941)

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Anotherclown (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 02:06, 21 January 2017 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Operation Retribution (1941) edit

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (talk)

Operation Retribution (1941) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Operation Retribution was the bombing of Belgrade on 6–7 April 1941 at the opening of the Invasion of Yugoslavia, and was ordered by Adolf Hitler as punishment for the coup d'etat that took place on 27 March 1941 and appeared (to Hitler at least) to repudiate the accession of Yugoslavia to the Axis. It resulted in the destruction of large parts of Belgrade and the deaths of thousands of civilians. Brave but ultimately futile resistance was put up by the pilots of the Royal Yugoslav Air Force. The main Luftwaffe commander responsible was captured by the Yugoslavs at the end of the war, and subsequently tried and executed. Scars from the bombing were still visible in 2008. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:11, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from The Bounder

Nicely put together. Just a few suggestions from me that won't stop a support:

  • It's quite an opening sentence that carries a lot. Worth considering a split, or moving some info out to a second sentence (the end part of "the first days of the World War II German-led Axis invasion of Yugoslavia" is a bit cumbersome after such a long stretch)
  • May be worth considering splitting the paragraph after "targets across Yugoslavia." to separate the attacks from their aftermath.
  • "union" is a slightly loaded term for the Anschluss (which was the propaganda-driven name). It was an annexation of the country, rather than a union.
  • May be worth adding the date that the photo was taken of the National Library of Serbia.

None of these are deal-breakers by any stretch, but I hope they help. All the best, The Bounder (talk) 14:33, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look. All done. These are my edits. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:31, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nicely done and I've moved to support on prose. All the best, The Bounder (talk) 16:25, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:37, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Nikki! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:01, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

Solid work here, some thoughts, mainly on content, for your consideration

  • The first sentence of the background: "...and came under increasing pressure..." It is not explicitly clear what the "pressure" is supposed to result in; presumably alignment with Germany, like the neighbouring countries. Perhaps reorder this first sentence to better relate the action and consequence. (I hope that makes sense!)
  • Yep. See what you think.
  • "On 27 and 28 March 1941 Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring transferred about 500 fighter and bomber aircraft from France and northern Germany.": Transferred to where? Romania perhaps (see below)?
  • Along Yugoslavia's borders, clarified.
  • "On the afternoon of 5 April, a British colonel visited ...and confirmed that the attack...": Presumably the confirmation was as a result of intercepts or similar by British Intelligence. I think adding this information will provide context to the reader; will the source support the addition of this?
  • No, the source isn't that specific.
  • "...Romanian-based Fliegerführer Arad...": so were these at least some of the aircraft involved in the bombing? The way it presently reads, it suggests that they weren't and the false alarm was caused by them going somewhere else.
  • Fliegerführer Arad consisted of fighters and divebombers, mostly used for close support of ground troops during the invasion. The main formation used in this operation was Luftflotte IV, operating out of western Austria, but Fliegerführer Arad did provide some fighter escort (JG 77).
  • "...with more than six badly damaged": should that be "with six more badly damaged"?
  • Yep. Done.
  • "On his return to base, the commander of the 51st Fighter Group was relieved of his command for failure to take action.": But he did take action in that the group was scrambled; it seems to me the reason was more a lack of success. Maybe rephrase?
  • Link Vienna.
  • "...downing 20 Yugoslav aircraft and destroying a further 44...": "downed" and "destroyed" appear to make more sense grammatically.
  • Done.
  • In the first paragraph of the aftermath section, you use dashes and "to" interchangeably to refer to ranges.
  • Done.
  • The Knell reference should be World War II not World War 2. The Google book page has it as "2" but when you drill onto the image of the title page, it is actually "II".
  • Done.

Cheers. Zawed (talk) 07:24, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review, Zawed! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:45, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Good work, have added my support now. Cheers. Zawed (talk) 08:31, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments This article is in great shape, and I have only minor comments:

  • "The next day, German troops entered Bulgaria from Romania, closing the ring around Yugoslavia" - was Yugoslavia able to receive aid via Greece?
  • Theoretically, but the Greeks were flat out fighting the Italians, and wouldn't make common cause with the Yugoslavs.
  • "a British colonel visited Mirković at the VVKJ base in Zemun and confirmed that the attack on Belgrade would commence at 06:30 the following morning" - how did the Yugoslavs or the British officer know the timing of the planned attack? (was infomation leaking in both directions ahead of the invasion?)
  • Hitler was furious when he found out about it, and the RSHA investigated it thoroughly afterwards, but it seems even the Yugoslav military attache in Berlin knew about it, so there was obviously a fair amount of intelligence flowing in all directions. I haven't seen anything that clearly states where the Brits got the information.
  • I think that "dive bombers" is usually written as two words
  • Quite right, fixed.
  • "Löhr replaced these general directions with specific military objectives at the last minute" - perhaps note though that these seem to have included/been facilities located within the city. If sources support it, you could note that this would have inevitably meant significant damage to non-military targets and civilian casualties due to the imprecision of bombing at the time.
  • The sources don't really make that point, it is sort of implied in all WWII bombing though, isn't it?
  • Perhaps tweak this to say "specific military objectives within the city" or similar to make it clearer that this was a fig leaf (the USAAF also claimed to be targeting transport and military targets in German cities when they were carpet bombing them due to the inaccuracy of bombing at the time) Nick-D (talk) 10:20, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Some aspects of the bombing remain unexplained, particularly the use of the aerial mines" - can this be clarified? The Germans frequently used aerial mines against British cities during the Blitz (the British did much the same with their blockbuster bombs), and presumably this was the purpose of the weapons. Nick-D (talk) 01:17, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I hadn't been aware of the use in the Blitz, but Boog, Krebs, et al note that Coventry was also targeted with aerial mines and notes "not all aspects of the bombing have as yet been clarified, in particular the purpose behind the dropping of seven aerial mines." It seems to me that the German thinking behind the use of aerial mines in this instance (in an invasion scenario) still isn't clear. I haven't seen any information about the specific targeting of the mines either. Do you think I need to change the way I've written this?

Support My comments are now addressed: great work Nick-D (talk) 10:34, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support: The article looks great. Everything looks fine to me. Good job, PM. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 10:29, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments about the Operation Punishment

I will like to know from the main editor what source it used for the Operation Punishment - was the April 1941 German bombing of Belgrade, the capital of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. My sources says that Operation Punishment was the codename for the Invasion of Yugoslavia, not just the bombing of Belgrade. Alongside the campaign order to the three branches of German Armed Forces (Directive 25), the Germans codenamed the Invasion of Yugoslavia "Operation Punishment" or "Unternehmen Strafgericht". Google books search gives similar results: Code-named “Operation Punishment,” the plan for the invasion of Yugoslavia... Can you please clarify?

Sure. It comes from Germany and the Second World War, Volume 3 by Gerhard Schreiber, Bernd Stegemann and Detlef Vogel, p. 497. I will clarify the lead in the body. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:25, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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