Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Fall of Kampala

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Zawed (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 08:20, 10 January 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Fall of Kampala edit

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Nominator(s): Indy beetle (talk)

Featured article candidates/Fall of Kampala/archive1

The Fall of Kampala in April 1979 was a critical but oft forgotten moment in the history of the African continent. It was the first time an African state seized the capital of another African country, and it resulted in the overthrow of the brutal dictatorship of Idi Amin. The actual fighting was nothing to write home about, as the bulk of the Ugandan Army crumbled and fled in the face of a three-pronged Tanzanian assault. The bulk of this article was written with information from a 1983 book by two journalists, War in Uganda: The Legacy of Idi Amin, with some additional details provided by contemporary newspaper reports and some recent articles by Uganda's Daily Monitor. Achieving A-class would herald a great improvement in coverage of the Uganda–Tanzania War on Wikipedia. Hopefully this article can reach featured status before the 40th anniversary of the battle next spring. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:40, 15 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nick-D edit

What a great article to bring to a high standard. I have the following comments:

The first para in the lead is a bit lengthy: I'd suggest splitting the first two sentences into a single para (which does a great job of summarising the entire article) and significantly trimming the remainder - this amount of background seems unnecessary for the lead.
- Split and trimmed.
" 201st Brigade led by Brigadier established" - the Brigadier's name is missing (though I don't think this is needed for the lead)
- Removed led by Brigadier.
A map of the relevant areas of Uganda would be helpful in the background and/or Prelude section
- Added a map of Kampala city centre in the Prelude section.
  - A map of the general Kampala area would be very useful given that not all of the article (especially the early sections) is about things which happened in Kampala, and the geography is a bit obscure. Nick-D (talk) 08:54, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - @Nick-D: Changed to cropped portion of a map showing Kampala and several surrounding towns. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:24, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"alternating dirt shoulders of the road" - I'm not sure what this means (how do road shoulders alternate?)
- Revised as walked on the dirt shoulders of the road, the units staggered on alternating sides. It would have looked something like this: _–_–_–
The para starting with "Lieutenant Colonel Msuya was eager" is a bit lengthy
- Split after "This is almost worth getting court-martialed for."
"The Tanzanians recovered the body of Hans Poppe, a biracial police officer who had been killed in a 1971 border clash" - was he Tanzanian? (this is implied, but not clear) Nick-D (talk) 09:58, 30 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Revised as The Tanzanians recovered the body of Hans Poppe, a biracial Tanzanian police officer who had been killed by the Ugandans in a 1971 border clash.

@Nick-D: I have responded to your comments. -Indy beetle (talk) 18:17, 30 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support My comments are now all addressed. It really is good to see a high quality article on an important but under-represented topic such as this. Nick-D (talk) 06:21, 4 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

Just starting off, but one question from the start... why was Amin in Entebbe and not Kampala? Was the capital moved during this period, or was he simply camping with his forces? Is Entebbe State House a major center, or just somewhere he was at that time? This is not clear to me and I suspect others might want to know this too. I'll try to have some more constructive comments later. Maury Markowitz (talk) 17:36, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @Maury Markowitz: The capital was always Kampala, and the article makes that clear enough. Historically the Ugandan President has always had an official residence in Entebbe. More information can be found here at this Ugandan government site: [1]. That source says by 1979 Amin was not living there permanently, but Avirgan and Honey are quite clear that Amin was there at the time, presumably overseeing the mobilisation of his forces and the movement of the Libyans. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:16, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Maury Markowitz: Any other comments? -Indy beetle (talk) 05:43, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Maury Markowitz: The source review is complete and three other editors have offered their support. Do you have any outstanding concerns? -Indy beetle (talk) 17:08, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, no, I'm good to go. Maury Markowitz (talk) 19:09, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by AustralianRupert edit

Support: G'day, Indy. Nice work, I have a few minor suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 04:22, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

the year "1979" should be mentioned in the lead somewhere
- Done.
in the lead, Uganda-Tanzania War should have an endash
- Done.
at five paragraphs, the lead is probably a little too long per WP:LEAD. You could potentially combine a couple
- Trimmed, consolidated into four paragraphs.
make any broadcasts (He...: decaps "He"
- Done.
Entebbe-Kampala road: probably should have an endash
- Done.
Bwaise-Kawempe area: same as above
- Done.
I see some inconsistency in the English variation, for instance "defence" and "centre" (British), but also "neighborhoods", "center" and "kilometers" (US)
- Should all be UK now.
Lieutenant Colonel Msuya was...: the rank isn't necessary here, as he has already been introduced in the previous section
- Removed "Lieutenant Colonel".
destroying a Land Rover: suggest linking Land Rover here
- Done.
The evening of 11 April was dubbed "the night of the wheelbarrows" in allusion to civilians carting away property: who dubbed it this?
- Resourced to the Newsweek article where this was originally reported. Its three authors have only this to say: "Far more destruction occurred when the victory celebration degenerated into an orgy of looting and violence. Stores were emptied during what came to be called the "Night of the Wheel-barrows," and soldiers loyal to Amin were beaten to death by mobs."
  - I'd suggest maybe attributing it to Newsweek in text. For instance, "The evening of 11 April was dubbed the "Night of the Wheelbarrows" in a Newsweek article..." AustralianRupert (talk) 05:50, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - Changed to According to a Newsweek report, the evening of 11 April "came to be called the 'Night of the Wheel-barrows,'" in allusion to civilians carting away property.
in the Citations, No.s 1, 2, 20, 23, 36, and 46 probably should have retrieval dates
- My understanding was that uploaded archive material did not need access dates, as everything is as it was originally printed (versus the Daily Monitor articles, which were published on the web and may have been updated).
  - G'day, I haven't heard of that before, to be honest. The retrieval dates really just help people find dead links in web archives, so I feel it would be an improvement. That said, I won't die in a ditch over it. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 05:50, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - Point taken; retrieval dates added.
in the References, add hyphens to the ISBN for Avirgan for consistency of style with the other entries
- Done.
in the References, Amin and the tragedy of Uganda --> "Amin and the Tragedy of Uganda" (title case caps)
- Done.
in the References, Gordon B.K. Wavamunno: the story of an African entrepreneur --> " Gordon B.K. Wavamunno: The Story of an African Entrepreneur" (per above)
- Done.

@AustralianRupert: I've responded to your comments. -Indy beetle (talk)

No worries, I've added my support now. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 05:50, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

All images appropriately licensed.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:15, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lingzhi edit

What is the sort order of the references?Lingzhi2 (talk) 11:51, 25 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Alphabetical. -Indy beetle (talk) 17:18, 25 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Harry edit

What was the cause of the dispute between Uganda and Tanzania?
- Are you referring to the "deterioration of relations" that preceded the outbreak of war?
  - I'm wondering why Amin wanted to invade Tanzania in the first place, and why the Tanzanians felt it necessary to respond decisively. Is that part of the deterioration of relations, or was there some longer-running feud between the two countries?
    - Expanded first para to two as follows: In 1971 Idi Amin launched a military coup that overthrew the President of Uganda, Milton Obote, precipitating a deterioration of relations with neighbouring Tanzania. Tanzanian President Julius Nyerere had close ties with Obote and had supported his socialist orientation. Amin installed himself as President of Uaganda and ruled the country under a brutal dictatorship. Nyerere withheld diplomatic recognition of the new government and offered asylum to Obote and his supporters. He tacitly supported a failed attempt by Obote to overthrow Amin in 1972, and after a brief border conflict he and Amin signed a peace accord. Nevertheless, relations between the two presidents remained tense, and Amin made repeated threats to invade Tanzania. [para break] Uganda's economy languished under Amin's corrupt rule and instability fermented in the armed forces. Following a failed mutiny in late October 1978, Ugandan troops crossed over the Tanzanian border in pursuit of rebellious soldiers. On 1 November Amin announced that he was annexing the Kagera Salient in northern Tanzania. Tanzania blunted the sudden invasion, unified anti-Amin opposition groups, and launched a counter-offensive...
the TPDF began establishing a new Ugandan government The TPDF (the Tanzanian military) did? That sounds like something that would normally be handled by diplomats, rather than soldiers.
- The TPDF was largely responsible for law and order in Uganda at the time, as the Ugandan Army and local police had disintegrated and the UNLF forces were small and less disciplined (hence Tanzania "becoming deeply involved in Ugandan affairs"). TPDF officers were also the Tanzanian persons who organised and and attended the swearing-in of President Lule (with the assistance of a radio man who had some familiarity with protocol).
resulted in Tanzania becoming deeply involved in Ugandan affairs in the aftermath of the war, against his intentions But surely not to his surprise? Involvement in a country's politics is surely inevitable if you overthrow its government?
- The Legum text did not really comment on this. It seems Nyerere was really hoping that the UNLF could take care of things once Amin was out of power, but the collapse of the country and the constant bickering within the UNLF made this impossible.
The TPDF withdrew from Uganda in 1981 I'd be inclined to include the length of time for context rather than leave the reader to work it out.
- Do you mean clarify that they had been in the country for 3 years?
  - Yes, a sentence like "The TPDF withdrew from Uganda three years after the invasion on <date>" or similar.
    - Done.
The invasion and removal of Amin was controversial Can you provide some more context for "controversial" beyond the quote from the NYT? I'd have thought there would be journal articles discussing this sort of thing.
- The article currently states that the action was "strongly discouraged by the Organisation of African Unity." May and Furley state that the British Daily Telegraph and the Observer (through Colin Legum) voiced similar reservations as the NYT about the propriety and legality of Tanzanians action. They also state that Nigeria and Sudan (and Libya) never backed away from their original condemnation of the Tanzanian invasion of Uganda, that Nyerere's ties with the OAU were strained, and that African countries never gave Tanzania financial assistance to help it pay for the war. May and Furley then state how the conflict nevertheless did not tarnish Nyerere's reputation upon his death, and cite even one obituary which said that by engaging in the war he had upheld humanitarian principles. As for journal articles, there's one that compares Tanzania's invasion to Michael Walzer's criteria for Just and Unjust Wars. Obviously, the paper is mostly the opinion of the authors, though they do quote Nyerere responding to criticism of his decision to overthrow the regime.
  - That's all good stuff. I'd just like to see a greater range of opinions cited than one news article (I had a very quick look at the first page of Google Scholar and couldn't find anything that looked useful that you weren't already citing).
    - I've removed the NYT quote and instead added discussion from Roberts over the fallout the invasion had at the OAU meeting in July 1979, where it was discussed by African heads of states. I think it sufficiently explains the "controversial" nature of the whole affair.
The article says it was controversial. Were there any explicit statements of support for Tanzania's actions?
- May and Furley do not give any examples of explicit statements of support from countries. They instead list other countries that quickly recognized Uganda's new government. As a side note, though, Mozambique a small number of troops to assist the TPDF and UNLF during the war, and was very much in favor of Amin being deposed.
"Tanzania has set a disturbing precedent You need a reference right after a quote; also, was this written in the voice of the NYT itself or that of a journalist/columnist.
- Citations added. May and Furley use this quote and simply attribute it to "The New York Times". I've located the original article online, but it does not say if it was an editorial (though it reads like one) or attribute any writer in the byline. -Indy beetle (talk) 01:55, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

All in all, this a very impressive article and it's nice to see someone giving some TLC to a neglected bit of history. Excellent work. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:12, 28 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@HJ Mitchell: I've responded to your comments. -Indy beetle (talk) 05:32, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Indy beetle: A few replies inline. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:17, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@HJ Mitchell: Responded. -Indy beetle (talk) 06:26, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support. This is an excellent article on a very interesting bit of history. I'm happy that my comments have been addressed and I hope you'll be taking this to FAC. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:59, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

All sources used appear to be of high quality and reliable, although I am not familiar with some of the local publishing houses. No formatting problems that I could see. A few of the location fields could do with a state or country to differentiate them from other places with the same name, but that is a very minor point. Good to go. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:40, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the source review. I've clarified the locations of Lincoln and Milton. -Indy beetle (talk) 17:06, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.