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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Clive Hulme

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Eddie891 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 22:20, 30 December 2020 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Clive Hulme edit

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Nominator(s): Zawed (talk)

Clive Hulme (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Another VC recipient from New Zealand, Clive Hulme served with the 23rd Battalion during the Second World War. It was during the fighting on Crete that he performed the deeds that led to him being awarded the VC. He was wounded while on Crete and their severity saw him eventually repatriated to New Zealand. He was the father of Denny Hulme, Formula One champion in 1967. This article has just nicely gone through the GA process. Thanks to all those who stop by with their feedback. Zawed (talk) 09:53, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Images appear to be freely licensed (t · c) buidhe 16:01, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5 edit

  • was a soldier in the New Zealand Military Forces and a recipient of the Victoria Cross (VC) Unlink Victoria cross since it's already linked before.
  • It is my understanding that it is acceptable to link VC as a post-nom and then again on first full mention. Zawed (talk) 04:09, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead doesn't introduce mention WWII as introduction of Battle of Crete.
  • Dunedin, New Zealand, to Harold Hulme, a clerk, and his wife Florence née Matthews You mean his father worked for the Church right?
  • I have to admit to being initially puzzled by this as a clerk is an office worker. I have linked clerk for avoidance of doubt. While I would think that some churches are large enough that they may employ a clerk for office work I think possibly you may have initially read this as him being a cleric?
  • I don't know somehow every time I read "clerk" I thin about a cleric even though there's sometimes a difference since Lexico says so.
  • he married Rona Marjorie née Murcott; the couple were to have two children This sentence is odd to me aa little bit too odd. I may not be a native English speaker but this read a little too odd and is even against my feeling. Can someone else confirm this sentence?
  • It is written somewhat passively, which I think is the issue. I have rephrased. Zawed (talk) 04:09, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The invasion of the Low Countries prompted the diversion of the convoy to England I know the invasion took place in May but did he got conveyed in the same month?
  • I have added some date information here for context. Zawed (talk) 04:09, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm now at Crete's section and will continue tomorrow. Cheers. 20:44, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

  • Thanks CPA-5, I have responded to the points above, look forward to the next round of comments. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 04:09, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second paragraph of Crete's section looks more as a hero story than an encyclopaedia; could be wrong of course but that's what my eyes say.
  • I have trimmed it a little but it does recount his exploits and led to his VC award. Zawed (talk) 07:56, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • his battalion commander, Lieutenant Colonel Leckie Shouldn't this be linked to the New Zealand's Lieutenant Colonel article?
  • There is no NZ article for the rank so have linked to the UK one instead which mentions the rank is used in Commonwealth countries as well. Zawed (talk) 07:56, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hulme's VC was one of three to be awarded for actions during the Battle of Crete. Does he know the other two? If so then it could be handy to add them.
  • I have rephrased to refer to it being one of two awarded to NZers. Zawed (talk) 07:56, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • the Defence Medal, the War Medal 1939-45, the New Zealand War Service Medal --> "the Defence Medal, the War Medal 1939–1945, the New Zealand War Service Medal"
  • much to his displeasure as he was keen to resume his war service.[19] However, three months later he was recalled to active In those 3 months what did he do?
  • No info on that in the sources. Zawed (talk) 07:56, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Years of service: 1940–43" --> "Years of service: 1940–1942" and
    ed make it "1942–1943" since was discharged for the first time in 1942.
  • Link "discharged" or "discharge".

That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 20:52, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review CPA-5, I have responded above. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 07:56, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi CPA-5, just a nudge here - are you happy with the responses? Zawed (talk) 03:07, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merry Christmas to you too. All of my comments are now addressed, support. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 21:57, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by AustralianRupert edit

Support: G'day, Zawed, thanks for your work on this article. I have the following comments/suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 09:03, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • suggest mentioning siblings in the early life section, as a brother is mentioned later
  • Done, although it is a little vague as I don't know for sure if there were any other siblings. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • A few months later he enlisted in the 2nd New Zealand Expeditionary Force (2NZEF): do we know the exact date he enlisted and where he undertook his basic training?
  • Date of enlistment added along with location were his battalion trained. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • His conduct provided much needed morale for his fellow soldiers --> "His conduct provided a much needed morale boost for his fellow soldiers"?
  • During this action, he was wounded in the arm: left or right?
  • None of my sources say. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • suffering a bullet strike through his shoulder --> "suffering a bullet wound to his shoulder"? Also, left or right?
  • I have rephrased though differently to your suggested as "wounded" is used earlier in the sentence. None of my sources indicate which shoulder. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • units and formations sometimes have definite articles and sometimes don't; for instance "headquarters of 5th Infantry Brigade", "himself to 23rd Battalion"}}
  • He served on the home front until September 1943: do we know what unit he served with, or what is role was?
  • I would think given his battle service, some sort of training role but none of my sources say. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was also affected by the Cretan villagers --> I think something is missing here. "affected by remorse", potentially?
  • I have rephrased, although I am a little uncertain about it. How does it read to you? Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • He died at Te Puke on 2 September 1982: do we know what the cause of death was?
  • None of my sources say. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1939-1945 Star, War Medal 1939-45, Greek Commemorative War Medal 1940-1941: endashes?
  • "war is on, war is on - and you do what you have to do": endash?
  • in the Notes, "Denny Hulme - Biography": endash?
  • in the Notes, "For Valor: Sergeant A. C. Hulme Invested with VC" --> "Valour"?
  • in the Notes, "nzherald" --> New Zealand Herald?
  • in the References, is there an OCLC for the Ross work?
  • Done. Zawed (talk) 04:42, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the review AustralianRupert, I have responded above. Haven't seen too much of you around here, I hope you and yours are doing OK. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • No worries -- thanks for your efforts. Yes, everyone is well, thank you. This year has been very busy with work, and my motivation has dropped a bit, I'm sorry. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:58, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Pendright edit

Greetings Zawed! I have a few minor comments. Pendright (talk) 21:27, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

  • He received the VC for his actions during the Second World War, at the Battle of Crete in May 1941.
Actually, he received the VC for his actions "at the Battle of Crete" ... -> Consider reversing the above sequence?
  • He was also the father of champion Formula One racing driver Denny Hulme.
  • This secondary detail does not fit well into the narrative here.
  • The word "also" seems unnecessary.

Early life:

  • one of at least two sons of Harold Hulme,
Needs a bit of clarity?
  • Yeah it is a bit clumsy. I have phrased it this way since the sources don't explicit say how many siblings he had. He had at least one brother, as sources mention he was killed at Crete. I'm not sure how else to deal with it. Zawed (talk) 10:38, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

2nd WW:

  • It remained there until early 1941, at which time it embarked for Egypt. It was only in Egypt for a brief time before it was moved to Greece,
In the above, "it" is used four times, in which it refers to it twice?
  • Have rephrased to remove a couple of the "it"s. Zawed (talk) 10:38, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • [The next day], German snipers began infiltrating the New Zealanders' position and opened fire on a conference of senior officers at the headquarters of the 5th Infantry Brigade. Hulme volunteered to deal with them and, with his company commander observing through field glasses, successfully eliminated a party of five snipers while wearing the camouflage smock that he had acquired earlier in the battle. At one stage during this mission, the smock fooled the Germans into thinking he was part of their group. [The next day] he continued his sniping exploits, killing three more Germans and destroying
[The next day] and [The next day] -> Unclear?
  • Have added a date for one of those "next day"s. Zawed (talk) 10:38, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Later life:

  • He was survived by his wife and two children.[1] His son, Denny Hulme, was active in motorsports, winning several Grand Prix
What about the other offspring?
  • There was only two children. In the early life section I have now specified a son and daughter, and then use the more general "children" in this section. Zawed (talk) 10:38, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Medals:

  • This prompted calls for an apology to the families of those killed by Hulme[13] and caused upset to his daughter, who pointed out
Perhaps I missed it, but this is the frst mention of a daughter that I recall?
  • Now that I have specified there was a son and daughter from marriage, this is now the second mention so has antecedence. Zawed (talk) 10:38, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Finised - Pendright (talk) 21:27, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pendright Thank you for the review. I have responded to your points above. Apologies for the delay in getting this sorted, it has been a crazy few days at work in the run into Christmas! Cheers, Zawed (talk) 10:38, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Zawed: All good, supporting. Pendright (talk) 20:12, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass edit

That all looks good to me. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:24, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Gog! Merry Xmas to you! Zawed (talk) 10:39, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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