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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Bill Kibby

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Sturmvogel 66 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 14:20, 26 July 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Bill Kibby edit

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Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (talk)

Bill Kibby (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Bill Kibby is the next in my project to get all South Australian Victoria Cross recipients to FA. With Diver Derrick already a FA, Kibby is the only other WWII VC recipient from SA. Another posthumous award, Kibby received the VC for his actions during the Second Battle of El Alamein. There is no stand-alone biography of Kibby, so the article is not terribly long, and has been put together using the various books on Australian VCs plus his Australian Dictionary of Biography entry. Have at it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:04, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments: G'day, PM, looks good. I have a few minor comments/suggestions (apologies if I've missed anything - a bit under the weather right now):

  • there is one duplicate link in the lead, but in the context makes sense to me (no action required)
  • ext links all work (no action required)
  • there are no dabs (no action required)
  • perhaps link platoon, company and battalion
  • do we know why his family moved to Australia?
  • next year recovering and undergoing further training: perhaps, "next year recovering and undergoing further training while his battalion took part in the North African Campaign" (this will avoid the minor issue where you say the battalion was recommitted to the campaign, without having actually stated when they were initially committed
  • He was a quiet and sincere man, who loved gardening: Seems a bit choppy when read in combination with the previous sentence. Perhaps, "He was described as a quiet and sincere man, who loved gardening"
  • which displayed "a fondness for Palestine's countryside and a feeling for its people.": perhaps "according to biographer, Bill Gamage..."
  • "2/48th Battalion" --> "2/48th Infantry Battalion"
  • On 14 September, while the battalion was training...: perhaps state where
  • hoping to dislodge the Allies from the area, take Alexandria, and open the way to Cairo and the Suez Canal, beginning the First Battle of El Alamein: the last bit seems a bit run on
  • On 22 July, the 24th...: sugest link the 24th Brigade here
  • battalion was undertaking garrison duties in northern Syria after its involvement in the Siege of Tobruk
  • sources look reliable to me
  • perhaps mention that the citation was based on a note found in the pocket of Captain Robbins? (p. 158 of They Dared Mightily)
  • p. 135 of this source mentions that Mabel was presented with the award by Lord Gowrie in November 1943: [1] AustralianRupert (talk) 04:51, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • sources: appear to be reliable for the information being cited and appear to be consistently formatted (I made a minor tweak in this regard, please check you are happy with this change). Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:50, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Ykraps

I'll take a closer look later but here are few preliminary comments to be getting on with:
  • As it's a somewhat ambiguous term, perhaps link Middle East.
  • Probably a good idea to link draper too as this isn't a common term in this day and age
  • Instead of ...enjoyed spending time outdoors being active, why not, "...enjoyed outdoor activities"?
  • ...getting work at the Perfection Fibrous Plaster Works in Edwardstown, where he worked... sounds a bit clumsy with the repetition. What about, "securing a position at...."?
  • spending time outdoors being active. He was active ... Close repetition of active. What about, "He joined the scouting movement, as an assistant scoutmaster in the 2nd Glenelg Sea Scouts where he crewed the lifeboat". Or similar?

--Ykraps (talk) 12:19, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Few more...
  • Was he a full corporal between acting corporal and acting seargent?
  • After recovering, in August 1941 he joined the brigade training battalion... I assume this is referring to Kibby but as George was mentioned in the previous sentence, I don't think it's clear enough. Perhaps say, Kibby joined the brigade training battalion.
  • Are compass points not hyphenated in Australian English? ie north-west Egypt
  • Focused or focussed?
  • On 30–31 October, the platoon came under intense machine gun and mortar fire. Most of them were killed or wounded, and by 31 October the total fighting strength... Do we need 31 October twice? Can we say, On 30–31 October, the platoon came under intense machine gun and mortar fire. Most of them were killed or wounded, and by the time it had stopped, total fighting strength of the battalion was down to 213 men? Or something along those lines perhaps.
  • Isn't postscript all one word?
  • ...memorial trust was established and raised ₤1,001 Is that Australian pounds? Or link to whichever currency.

I think that's all. A nice article which I remember reading when I reviewed for DYK. It was one of those "I'll come back to that" moments which got overlooked so I was delighted to see it here.--Ykraps (talk) 16:39, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Ykraps. I think I got all these. Here are my edits. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:30, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I made a small change here [[2]] because one of the changes altered the sentence following it. If you want to rewrite that's fine by me. I'm adding my support anyway.--Ykraps (talk) 06:25, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ykraps! Your input is appreciated. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:28, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:William_Kibby_061364.JPG: as per the template in use, this requires information on first publication. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:04, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Nikkimaria, does it? I was working on the basis of it being Commonwealth owned (via donation to the AWM) and taken more than 50 years ago, or a photograph with a known maker taken prior to 1 January 1955. Alternatively, it could be PD-AustraliaGov. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:25, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • It does with the current tag - see the bold italic note at the bottom of the tag itself. If AustraliaGov applies then that information is not required. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:16, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments & support by Pendright edit

Lede:

  • William Henry "Bill" Kibby, VC (15 April 1903 – 31 October 1942) was a British-born Australian recipient of the Victoria Cross, ...
Would you mind explaining, grammatically, why the above phrase or clause is set-off by commas?
My understanding that the comma after Kibby is in accordance with MOS:POSTNOM (which also gives the option of no comma), and the comma after VC is the usage of a comma to mark a natural pause and break in the sentence, and a semicolon would create too much of a distinction between the two parts of the sentence which are closely related. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I see! For the sake of discussion, let me offer this. In the English language, as you know, there are essential clauses and non-essential clauses. This seems to hold true whether it’s Australian, British, or American English. Non-essential clauses are set-off by commas, essential clauses are not. So by placing the comma after kibby, by rule, it became a non-essential clause. However, the clause is really essential to the meaning of the sentence, because it identifies a particular fact or facts important to the complete thought. As a result, the comma following Kibby would, accordingly, seem incorrect. Pendright (talk) 06:07, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I see what you are getting at now. Comma deleted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:12, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Early life:

  • Kibby was a short (5 ft 6 in (168 cm)) but strong man and enjoyed outdoor activities.
  • Because 5 ft 6 in is essential to the meaning of the sentence, the bracket preceding it shoould be removed.
  • And the number of feet and inches should be spelled out.
  • Why the double bracket after cm?
  • An "a" placed after but would seem to make the sentence read smoother.
  • ...and was posted to 48th Field Battery, Royal Australian Artillery.
Consider adding the definite article "the" after to.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

World War II:

  • .. where it disembarked in Palestine on 17 December.
Is Palestine worthy of a link?
Absolutely, Mandatory Palestine linked. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... and accompanied him on the occasional sketching trip.
Since it was not a specific trip, "the" should be substituted with "an".
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... and was able to pass on to Mrs Kibby some of her husband's works.
Isn't a full stop required after Mrs?
Quite right. Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • After recovering, in August 1941 Kibby joined the brigade training battalion ...
Should not the comma be after 1941, because this seems to complete the introcuctory phrase or element.
Sentence reorganised. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... and by the time the fighting was over the total fighting strength of the battalion was down to 213 men.
What was the fighting strength before the engagement?
Unknown, but the establishment strength of an Australian infantry battalion at this point in the war was 910, added that. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Postscrit:

  • In January 1944, Kibby was re-interred in the Commonwealth War Graves cemetery at El Alamein.
  • Would it be more correct to say that Kibby's remains were re-intered?
  • Is cemetery part of the proper name?

Info box:

The info box says Kibby is buried at El Alamein War Cemetery; the Postscript says he is buried at the
Commonwealth War Graves cemetery at El Alamein?
Fixed by the above. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done - Pendright (talk) 05:36, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Pendright! I think I've got all your points, let me know if I've missed anything? These are my edits. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67: Supporting, but I would appreciate a response to my comment under the above Lede section. Pendright (talk) 06:07, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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