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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/77th Infantry Division (United Kingdom)

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Sturmvogel 66 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 20:20, 22 November 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

77th Infantry Division (United Kingdom) edit

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Nominator(s): EnigmaMcmxc (talk)

77th Infantry Division (United Kingdom) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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A short article about a lesser known division of the British Army. This formation stayed within the UK, assigned to coastal defense before being turned into a training formation, disbanded, and being used for deception purposes. It has been quite a while since this article was promoted to a GA. It was the only one, out a series of articles on the higher number training divisions that was not pushed for an A-Class review following it being passed at GAN. I believe it is a few apt comments away from joining them at A-Class standard. Looking forward to some feedback and whipping this into shape.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:16, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Gog the Mild edit

  • Could you give the date of the division's establishment in the lead. Ideally in the first sentence.
    I hope the change I have made worksEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it was responsible for retraining soldiers who had been on medical leave. Once recruits were fully trained, and men returning from injury retrained" If it was responsible for retraining soldiers who had been on medical leave where do the "recruits" come in?
    I have reworded and expanded the lede to remove this contradiction, and better summarize the article.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "County Divisions" Lower case C.
    Before making this change, I would like to check. "County Division" is the title, shouldn't both letters remain capitalized?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No. Because it is not a title the way it is used, it is a reference to a group. If you are referring to "the County Division" fine; but "the county divisions" - as in this case it is not a proper name. Ie, similar to how it might be the King, but the kings.
hopefully, address nowEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:13, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "largely static, lacking mobility" One of those pairs of words is redundant.
    Removed the latter, and made a slight rewording to the sentence.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "counterattack any possible German landing" Optional: to me you can delete "possible", it is already covered by "any".
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "allowed the War Office to begin steps to better balance the army due to the large number of infantry units formed during the preceding year and a half" I don't understand what this means. I think that my problem is around the "due to".
    I have removed the latter part of the sentence, which hinted at info in the note and is not exactly relevant to the story of this division.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Reserve Divisions", "Higher Establishment" and "Lower Establishment". I am not sure that having them in quote marks justifies the upper case initial letters.
    I have updated to use the correct case, and drop the quote marks.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the division insignia" Shouldn't that be either 'divisional' or division's'?
    tweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Soldiers who had completed their corps training" And this would be? (Reads like a typo for core to me.)
    See below on your other commentEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The infantry brigade was replaced with" "The" → 'this'.
    DoneEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was replaced with the 11th Army Tank Brigade" "with" →'by'.
    DoneEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:03, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and retain reinforcements until they were ready to be deployed" Has it not already been made clear that this was the division's role?
    Not quite. Basically: Reserve division: complete final training; Holding division: retain troops until they could be deployed. Joslen gives the latter role to the Army Tank Brigade while attached to the division, when it was still a training formation.
    Suggestions on improving the article text, if this is not coming across?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:03, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think that your other changes have adequately addressed this.
  • "from a reserve to holding division" → 'from a reserve to a holding division'.
    DoneEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:03, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rehabilitation Centre" → 'rehabilitation centre'.
    DoneEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:03, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "low physique"? Erm, I assume that you don't mean who were unusually short? I think this needs rephrasing.
    It is the term used by Rissik: "receive men of low morale and poor physique". But I have reworded in the article, since he is on about physical standards. I have reworded, and hope this works.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:03, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Physique" is fine; "low physique" isn't. IMO. Your change is fine, but see my comment below.
  • "and what job or military capability would best suit them" "capability" → 'role' (or similar). And why not 'and what military job or capability would best suit them'?
    tweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:03, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the 77th Holding, and the training divisions"? Is there a missing 'other three'?
    AddedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:03, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "British army" Upper case A.
    AmendedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:03, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems to end a little in the air. Did the notional division have any men serving in it. When was it formally disbanded? Etc.
    There are only really two main sources that detail the phantom divisions. Hesketh never refers to the 77th again, after what is already mentioned in the article. Holt only briefly mentions the division, and includes this "Designation and sign retained for deception purposes; held in reserve and apparently never used." I have added an additional line in at the end of the article, cited to Holt. That appears to be all that there has been published about the deception activities of this division.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:03, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK. But see my comment below.

Good work. A smooth little article. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:44, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Having got down to the bottom and read the footnotes (I really dislike single character footnote indicators which are almost impossible to distinguish from citations) and see that there is an explanation for the "better balance the army due to" sentence. It could be that most of this would be better in the main text.
    I have moved the information out of the note and integrated it into the article text.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ditto "corps training" - for why I missed it and that it would probably work better in the main text. After all, this is not something extraneous or marginal, it is a description of what the division existed to do.
    IIRC, it was originally decided that this information would be better suited in a note. However, per your comment, I have moved it out of the note and incorporated it into the text with some additional tweaks.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That is really your call. But to me the names of the other two reserve divisions is a bit peripheral and it is reasonable to give this in a footnote. The two footnotes I commented on seem, to me, to be part of the division's core function, and therefore it would seem appropriate to give this information in the main text. Feel free to differ.

Gog the Mild (talk) 13:10, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your review. I have attempted to action the majority, and have left comments throughout for further review.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's all good stuff. A few minor comments on your changes:

  • "anyone who was not meeting" → 'those not meeting', or similar.
    AustralianRupert tweaked this pointEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:13, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Once the men were brought up to the sufficient standard" Delete "the sufficient".
    deletedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:13, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and was potentially not used in any further deception activities than being added to the army's order of battle." Can I suggest something like 'and its deception activities were limited to it being added to the army's order of battle.'?
    I worked through AustralianRupert's suggestions first, before coming back to yours. The change made to the article, does this work?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:13, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It does.
  • "the British Army had considerably increased the infantry army" Suggest 'the British Army had considerably increased its infantry force'.
    tweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:13, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The efforts by the War Office intended to address this" → 'The efforts by the War Office were intended to address this'.
    tweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:13, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "armor". As this is in BritEng it should be 'armour'.
    addressedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:13, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Historian F.W. Perry" → 'The historian F.W. Perry'.
    Amended per your suggestionEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:13, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 21:37, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the ongoing suggestions, I have attempted to address all raised.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 04:13, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good job well done. I am happy to support. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:47, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:15, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Pass. No reason to suspect that any of the sources are not reliable for what they are being used for. Fiamh (talk, contribs) 10:20, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from AustralianRupert edit

Support: G'day, I have the following suggestions/observations: AustralianRupert (talk) 05:03, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • in the lead, role was coastal defense --> "defence" British English variation as this is a British topic?
    Tweaked!EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • in the lead, had an tank brigade --> "a tank"
    fixedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • in the lead, attached to provided training --> "attached to provide"
    fixedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • in the lead, The notional 77th Division was held in reserve within the United Kingdom for the remainder of the war, and was potentially not used in any further deception activities than being added to the army's order of battle. --> "The notional 77th Division was held in reserve within the United Kingdom for the remainder of the war. Despite being added to the army's order of battle, it was probably not used in any further deception activities".
    AmendedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • During the summer, the Battle of Britain --> probably best to provide the months here per MOS:SEASON
    AmendedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • the infantry army following --> "infantry arm"?
    Quite!EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • armor --> "armour" (British English variation)?
    tweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • were divided between higher and lower establishment formations --> "were classified as either higher or lower establishment formations"?
    tweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • winter of 1942–43 --> probably best to include the months here, also per WP:DATERANGE it should probably be presented as "1942–1943"
    Perry states that it was the winter of 42/43. Joslen provides dates for the 3 divisions that converted, they all did in December. A note for one states the process was finalized in 43, which would match up with Perry. I have reworded the sentence to avoid the MOS:SEASON issue, and to still try and reflect what the sources convey.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • infantry, Corps training involved --> "corps training" (lowercase)?
    Amended per your commentEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having completed basic and their job-specific training --> "Having completed their basic and job-specific training"
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • During 1944, the British Army was facing a manpower crisis --> "During 1944, the British Army faced a manpower crisis"?
    tweaked
  • there are no dab or duplicate links (no action requied)
  • ext links all work (no action required)
Thank you for the review, I have attempted to action all of your points.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:41, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, your changes look good to me. Thanks for your efforts. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 03:28, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM edit

This article is in good shape. I have a few comments:

  • in the lead, "which fought in Normandy from June 1944"
    tweaked
  • suggest "The 77th Division was notionally held in reserve within the United Kingdom for the remainder of the war, but was otherwise unused for deception measures."
    tweaked per your suggestionEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggest "dampenedreduced this threat"
    updatedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • move the link to infantry to first mention
    updatedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • link division (military) at first mention after county divisions
    link addedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "such duties,to undertake training, and form"
    DoneEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • link counterattack
    link addedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • On 22 June 1941
    added
  • newly raised infantry battalions
    addedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • link armour
    link addedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggest "For example, the 12th Battalion, Devonshire Regiment, part of the 203rd Infantry Brigade, provided"
    added in the brigade infoEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This infantry brigadeIt was replaced by the"
    TweakedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggest "the 14th Battalion, Durham Light Infantry, part of the 209th Infantry Brigade, was converted"
    addedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • suggest "the 11th Battalion, York and Lancaster Regiment, part of the 203rd Infantry Brigade, for"
    addedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "for the 21st Army Group, then fighting in Normandy" and link to Operation Overlord and drop the later link
    tweaked per your suggestionsEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • who is Stephen Hart" historian/author/etc?
    Added descriptiveEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • consistency between 77th Holding Division and 45th (Holding) Division, just go with whatever the majority of sources use
    Updated for consistencyEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The 77th Infantry (Reserve) Division was one of several lower establishment divisions" but wasn't it the 77th Holding Division by this time?

That's all I have. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:23, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67:, as always thank you for the review. Sorry about the delay in actioning your comments and suggestions.
Great job, supporting. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:07, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSuppport by Pendright edit

Lede:

  • In this capacity, the division provided final tactical and field training for infantry who had already passed their initial training.
  • Add the before infantry.
  • Replace who with 'that' - who refers to people, that refers to people and things.
  • Now the 77th (Holding) Division, it was responsible for retraining [the] soldiers who had been on medical leave ...
Add [the] before soldiers
  • ... it was probably not used in any further deception activities.
If it's unknown, should' that be said? Consider this: ... it could not be determined whether or not
  • I have actioned this per the suggestion made by PM, above. Does this work?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Background:

  • Using the recruits in this manner allowed the regular infantry divisions to be freed up from such duties, undertake training, and form an all-important reserve that could be used to counterattack possible German landings.
Consider this: Using the recruits in this manner would allow the regular infantry divisions to be free of such duties; to undertake training, and form an all-important reserve to …
  • This has been changed per PM's comments. Any further refinement suggested?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, the British still had to consider the threat of a German invasion due [to] the possibility that the Soviet Union ...
Add the word [to].
  • Prior to this point, the British Army had considerably increased the infantry [army] following the large intake of recruits.
[army] seems redundant?
  • These pressures, and the re-balancing of the military, resulted in seven of the nine county divisions being disbanded and only two being reformed as infantry divisions.
Why the comma after pressures?

Home defence:

  • During the war, the divisions of the British Army were classified as either higher and lower ...
Change and to or -
  • The war-establishment, the on-paper strength, of an infantry division at this time was 17,298 men.
  • Replace the comma after establishment with 'estimated that'.
  • Tentatively disagree. The establishment was not an estimate, it was what they were supposed to actually have.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove the comma after stentgh.
  • Likewise, removing the comma removes the explanation of above.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Enclose 'at this time' with commas or delete it.
  • Removed, and replaced with the date at the beginning of the sentence.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
<>Okay, estimated and supposed don’t seem worth further discussion. So how about this: In 1944, the war-establishment’s on-paper strength of an infantry division was 17,298 men. Now, we have a complete and uninterrupted thought. Pendright (talk) 00:43, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
War establishment is essentially the technical term for "on-paper". I think if it is to be cut down, it should just be "In 1944, the war-establishment for an infantry division was 17,298 men". Although this leads back to the issue, of what does war establishment mean, so "In 1944, it was intended an infantry division have 17,298 men"?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:36, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
<>Let’s put the two important phrases of the sentence into context:
  • The Collins English Dictionary defines War establishment as" the full wartime compliment of men, equipment, and vehicles of a military unit".
  • The Cambridge English Dictionary defines "on paper" this way - judging something by how it has been planned rather than how it really works in practice:
So, these two definitions should be helpful in conveying what it is you wish the sentence to convey. Pendright (talk) 19:52, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Based off the above definitions, and the history of this division, it would seem fair that the following would be the best approach: "In 1944, the on-paper for an infantry division was 17,298 men". Largely due to the fact this division more than likely never approached that level. Would this work?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:47, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
<>Either one of these would work:
  • In 1944, the on-paper [strength] for an infantry division was 17,298 men, or:
  • In 1944, the war-establishment’s on-paper strength of an infantry division was 17,298 men.

Pendright (talk) 07:02, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • The 77th was assigned to [the] VIII Corps, and ...
Add [the]

Training:

  • From there, the recruit would be posted to a Corps Training Centre that specialised in the arm of the service they were joining.
  • Replace the recruit with 'a recruit' - indefinite.
  • Replace in the arm with in 'an' arm - indefinite.
  • For more specialised roles, such as signallers, it could be up to thirty weeks.
Remove the 'comma' after roles.
  • For example, as part of the change from a reserve to a holding division, the 14th Battalion, Durham Light Infantry[,] was converted from a regular infantry unit into a rehabilitation centre.
Add [comma]
  • On 30 June 1944, the 77th Holding[,] and the other three training divisions[,] had a combined total of
Remove [commas]

Deception:

  • [The] R Force, a British deception unit, seized upon this opportunity to retain the division as a phantom unit to inflate the army's order of battle.
Add [The]

Finished - Pendright (talk) 20:27, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your review. I have attempted to address the majority of your comments and suggestions. I have left a few comments throughout.
I've left a comment above labled <>. Pendright (talk) 00:58, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please see the above comment. I'm supporting this nomination. Pendright (talk) 07:16, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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