Wikipedia:WikiProject Catalan-speaking Countries/Official denomination in the infobox
- Note: Maurice27, the user who first initiated the debate by inserting an 3O tag in the articles of the Valencian Community and the Balearic Islands has deleted his own comments after other users had responded to them and after other users have provided the references he demanded. His language and behavior can be reviewed at the following links: [1], [2], and [3]. He refuses to debate, and demands an administrator to "make a decision". Unfortunately, administrators do not have the authority to make decisions regarding the content of the article. He has also threatened not to remove the tag until an administrator intervenes. The debate, therefore, is stalled. --the Dúnadan 22:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The purpose of this debate is to set up a guideline for the official denomination in the infoboxes of Catalan/Valencian speaking territories in particular those territories in which there is only one official denomination in both Catalan and Spanish, instead of two (or more) different official denominations for each of the official languages of the community/region/comarca/municipality in question.
Background, written by Dúnadan edit
This debate started at Valencian Community and Balearic Islands. Prior to a recent—and small—edit war, the infobox contained only the official denomination (Comunitat Valenciana and Illes Balears) and the English translation.
- User:Maurice27 [this background was written by Dúnadan, therefore he reserves the right to restore his own comments] User:Kman543210 suggested that the Spanish version of the official name be included in the infobox because Spanish is also an official language in these two communities (namely, to also include the translations Comunidad Valenciana and Islas Baleares).
- User:Dúnadan and User:Xtv argued that the official denomination in both Spanish and Catalan—per their respective Statutes of Autonomy—is exclusively in Catalan; that is, even in the Spanish versions of the official documentations and institutional laws, the names are always written in Catalan. Therefore, they suggest that only the official denomination should be included in the infobox along with the English translation.
Therefore, the purpose of this debate is to consider whether we should include the official denominations in the infobox, or all possible denominations whether they are official or not.
Arguments and proposals edit
Dúnadan edit
It is customary to include in infoboxes of countries, provinces, states, municipalities and other territorial administrative divisions the official denomination and the English translation (and when applicable a transliteration of the original name if it uses an alphabet other than the Latin alphabet). Following this convention—mainly discussed at the national level—only the official denominations are so far included. Of course, this is a customary convention, and guidelines are descriptive not prescriptive, so we should discuss whether it is pertinent or not to include the unofficial versions. It is my personal belief that we should clearly state which is the official denomination, and which one is not, even if they are both used extensively. I have three proposals to do so (see below).
Which are the official names? edit
- In the case of Catalonia, which has three official languages, the official denomination is always translated to the three official languages (i.e. Catalunya [4], Cataluña[5], and Catalonha[6]). Therefore the infobox at Catalonia contains all three official denominations in Spanish, Catalan and Occitan.
- In the case of the Valencian Community and the Balearic Islands, there are only two official languages: Spanish and Valencian/Catalan. However, the official denomination is never translated to Spanish in the official legal documents—albeit being translated in non-official scenarios. The Spanish versions of the Statutes of Autonomy—the basic organic laws of both communities—keep the official denomination in Valencian/Catalan, for example
- The first article of the Statute of Autonomy of the Valencian Community, in Spanish, reads:
- "El pueblo valenciano, históricamente organizado como Reino de Valencia, se constituye en Comunidad Autónoma, dentro de la unidad de la Nación española, como expresión de su identidad diferenciada como nacionalidad histórica y en el ejercicio del derecho de autogobierno que la Constitución Española reconoce a toda nacionalidad, con la denominación de Comunitat Valenciana." (bold mine). [7]
- The second article of the Statute of Autonomy of the Balearic Islands, in Spanish, reads:
- "La denominación de la Comunidad Autónoma es Illes Balears" (bold mine). [8]
- Why am I citing the Statutes of Autonomy?
- Because according to the Spanish constitution, article 147, (1) the Statutes of Autonomy are an integral part of the legal structure of the country and therefore the central government (actually, the "State") is bound to recognize and protect them; and (2) is it the prerogative of the autonomous communities to set up an official denomination according to their "historical identity", which must be stated in the Statute of Autonomy. Both the Valencian Community and the Balearic Islands, unlike Catalonia, have chosen the Valencian/Catalan denomination to be the only official denomination in both Spanish and Valencian/Catalan.
- Per WP:Verifiability, these two are the primary sources that the articles should use to determine the official names.
Maurice27 has suggested that the Statute of Autonomy has no jurisdiction over the Wikipedia,and that therefore, it doesn't matter what they say; we can select any version for the infobox. I argue that it is not in that sense that sources are used in Wikipedia: of course they don't have jurisdiction over an encyclopedia; we use sources to determine the accurate and verifiable content in the articles. I am only presenting the Statutes of Autonomy to prove that there is only one official denomination. Whether we decide to include or not to include non-official names in the infobox, that is a completely different matter; the purpose of this argumentation is first to show that the Spanish official versions of the names are still Comunitat Valenciana and Illes Balears respectively. In both Spanish and Catalan only one version is used.
Consistency across the Wikipedia edit
The arguments used by Maurice27 (and to a certain extent by User:Mountolive, even though he decided to stay out of the debate and not to support either option) for the inclusion of the non-official names of the two communities say that since Spanish is spoken by the "majority" of the population in those communities "common sense" indicates that the Spanish name should also be included, even if it is not official. IMHO, we should carefully consider the option of doing so. No article—or at least I haven't seen one, but that doesn't mean there isn't one of course—has unofficial denominations included in the infobox. It is the introductory paragraph the one that usually contains all official and unofficial, short and long names of the country. In this sense, it would make sense to include the Spanish version of the names in the introductory paragraph, but not in the infobox.
In the case of countries, for example, even if there are several official languages (whether co-official in the territories where they are spoken or co-official at the national level), only the official denomination is used (e.g. the United Kingdom, Russia, Mexico, Peru, the United States, South Africa and last but not least, Spain). Of course there are nuances in each of these examples that distinguish them from each other and from the autonomous communities in question; but the main difference is that the autonomous communities in question have clearly stipulated a single version of their names in both official languages.
Proposals edit
I propose three options to solve this matter:
Option 1 edit
Preserve the status quo: that only the official denomination be included in the infobox, along with the English translation; and have both the official and the unofficial (Spanish) version in the introductory paragraph. Example:
| |||
The Balearic Islands (Catalan and official:[1] Illes Balears; Spanish: Islas Baleares) are an archipelago in the western Mediterranean Sea, near the eastern coast of the Iberian Peninsula. They form an autonomous community and a province of Spain, of which the capital city is Palma...
Option 2 edit
Have the official denomination and the English translation in the infobox with a footnote; the footnote should read that the Spanish versions are Comunidad Valenciana and Islas Baleares respectively, but that they are unofficial. All official documentation uses the Catalan/Valencian versions only. Example:
| |||||
The Balearic Islands (Catalan and official:[2] Illes Balears; Spanish: Islas Baleares) are an archipelago in the western Mediterranean Sea, near the eastern coast of the Iberian Peninsula. They form an autonomous community and a province of Spain, of which the capital city is Palma...
Option 3 edit
Have both the official and the unofficial denominations in the infobox, along with the English translation; the Spanish unofficial version should be followed by a footnote; the footnote should read "This is the translation of the official denomination into Spanish, an official language in the community. All official documentation, however, uses the Catalan/Valencian denomination only". Example:
| |||||
The Balearic Islands (Catalan and official:[3] Illes Balears; Spanish: Islas Baleares) are an archipelago in the western Mediterranean Sea, near the eastern coast of the Iberian Peninsula. They form an autonomous community and a province of Spain, of which the capital city is Palma...
Option 4 edit
Similar to infobox of Catalonia. Have the official denomination (in Catalan and Spanish) and the English translation in the infobox. Example:
| |||
The Balearic Islands (Catalan and official:[4] Illes Balears; Spanish: Islas Baleares) are an archipelago in the western Mediterranean Sea, near the eastern coast of the Iberian Peninsula. They form an autonomous community and a province of Spain, of which the capital city is Palma...
Option 5 edit
Similar to infobox of Catalonia. Have the official denomination (in Catalan and Spanish) and the English translation in the infobox with a footnote; the footnote should read that the Spanish versions are Comunidad Valenciana and Islas Baleares respectively, but that they are unofficial. All official documentation uses the Catalan/Valencian versions only. Example:
| |||||
The Balearic Islands (Catalan and official:[5] Illes Balears; Spanish: Islas Baleares) are an archipelago in the western Mediterranean Sea, near the eastern coast of the Iberian Peninsula. They form an autonomous community and a province of Spain, of which the capital city is Palma...
[Name removed by it's owner] edit
[comments removed by the author]
- I would very much appreciate if we can focus on the arguments instead of bringing accusations and ad hominem comments. I will not respond to any such provocation (e.g. even if he finds it terrible, another example of Catalan nationalism etc,), but will rather respond to your arguments of content.
- Yes indeed, the Statute has no power to change a language. I am not arguing at all that the Spanish translation and usage of the name is not "Islas Baleares" or "Comunidad Valenciana". And I am pretty sure than in France they use neither Catalan nor Spanish but French and call them les Îles Baléars, and I am almost positive that no single German school calls them Illes Balears or Islas Baleares but rather Balearische Inseln. But that is completely off the point. You seem to misunderstand what I am trying to say. I am not arguing that Spanish translation of the name is not Islas Baleares. I am arguing that the official name is only Illes Balears. The official name. That is why we are adding a footnote, to specify which is the "official name", and which is the translation of the official name to an official language of the community itself.
- Yes, the Statute of Autonomy has no jurisdiction over Wikipedia. However, you also seem to misunderstand what I am trying to say (or what WP:Verifiability means). That is not the way we use sources here. I am citing the Statute of Autonomy because we are using them as sources to verify which is the official name and which is not the official name, even if it is an official language of the community and the country. Simple. Therefore, through the use of sources, we have been able to substantiate (i.e. WP:CITE and WP:Verifiability) that the official name is only "Illes Balears".
- To give you an example; it is evident that the constitution of Venezuela has no jurisdiction over Wikipedia. However, we do report that the official name of the country is República Bolivariana de Venezuela, because the people of Venezuela, through their representatives in the Constituent Courts, decided that this should be the official name, and we simply report that. It is the same way with the Balearic Islands. According to the Spanish constitution, the only document with jurisdiction to specify the official name of a community is the Statute of Autonomy (art. 147). Therefore, we use the Statutes to report which denomination they chose as their official name.
- Now, I don't find it "terrible" (please avoid those comments) to put the version in Spanish. I simply want to clarify, in an encyclopedic article, which is the official and which is the unofficial version. Whether we do it through a footnote or not, well, that is what we are debating. You can also present additional proposals as well. I am not saying that these are the only three proposals: we can discuss more. My only concern is simply to clarify. The Valencian people, through the Valencian Courts decided that the official name should be Comunitat Valenciana. We simply report that decision, properly sourced, in this encyclopedia. I personally thought that the third option might be a compromise for you, the Spanish version is added [that is what you wanted] but we specify that that is not an official name, but the translation [what I wanted]. I kindly ask you again to reconsider that option: I find it a perfectly acceptable compromise.
- --the Dúnadan 20:57, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
[comments removed by the author]
- Xtv has provided the guideline for you. --the Dúnadan 20:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Cnoguera edit
I support option 2. It seems reasonable and informative enough, since it preserves the translation of the official name to Spanish in the main text, while it explains in the footnote what is the official name in the Spanish version of the statute. Option 3 is also complete, but too redundant. --Carles Noguera (talk) 12:31, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Xtv edit
I support version 1 (of course). I don't like version 2. I find version 3 completely unacceptable.
In Wikipedia:Manual of Style (infoboxes) says: "The top text line should be bold and contain the full (official) name of the item.". Since it is an infobox in general, not only for names, I understand the parenthesis as "official, when exists", not "official and most common".
The official names in Spanish are "Comunitat Valenciana", "Illes Balears" and "Reino de España". The common names in Spanish are "Comunidad Valenciana", "Islas Baleares" and "España". But we do not write just "España" in the Infobox. So, we can not write "Comunidad Valenciana" nor "Islas Baleares", so simple.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 17:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
[comments removed by the author]
- We are not talking about how people call a community in another language. Do you have a primary source, such as the Statute of Autonomy of the communities in question, that proves your claims? --the Dúnadan 20:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- Children in the US are obviously never told at school that España is a country in Europe. But that doesn't make "Spain" the official denomination of the country! Maurice27 has accepted, in the comments above, that the official denomination/names are those stipulated by the Statutes of Autonomy. Common usage is unrlelated to official names. --the Dúnadan 21:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Benimerin edit
I support Option 1, as Xtv said. I see unnecessary to make any footnote about the unofficial name translated in Castillian because it's already noticed in the lead text of the article itself (Catalan and official: Comunitat Valenciana; Spanish: Comunidad Valenciana). Option 3 is unacceptable as this is not in accordance of Wikipedia rules about infoboxes of territorial administrative units. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 00:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
AjaxSmack edit
Option 2 is best since it conveys the most information without implying that the Spanish name has official status. — AjaxSmack 02:02, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Leptictidium edit
I support option 1 most since it uses all official versions of the name. Names of countries should be written only in their English version and their official version, not also in unofficial versions. Option 2 is too cumbersome. Leptictidium (mt) 11:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Pmmollet edit
I added Options 4 and 5, which are similar to article about Catalonia. I personally prefer Option 2, but I will also agree with Options 4 and 5.
Perhaps Options 4 and 5 would be a problem in Valencian Community because of Catalan/Spanish vs Valencian/Castillian war. --PmmolletTalk 09:47, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Espencat edit
I support option 1. I can't see why we need to repeat any of the other names when they are present in the 1st paragraph. At most, opcion 2 is passable but clearly supports a certain POV, which is that the Spanish name is in someway "almost official". --Espencat (talk) 20:51, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Other (write your name here) edit
To be written
Resolution edit
To be written
- ^ Ley 3/1986, de 19 de abril, de normalización linguística. Ley 13/1997, de 25 de abril, por la que pasa a denominarse oficialmente Illes Balears la Provincia de Baleares. Ley Orgánica 1/2007, de 28 de febrero, de reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de las Illes Balears.
- ^ Ley 3/1986, de 19 de abril, de normalización linguística. Ley 13/1997, de 25 de abril, por la que pasa a denominarse oficialmente Illes Balears la Provincia de Baleares. Ley Orgánica 1/2007, de 28 de febrero, de reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de las Illes Balears.
- ^ Ley 3/1986, de 19 de abril, de normalización linguística. Ley 13/1997, de 25 de abril, por la que pasa a denominarse oficialmente Illes Balears la Provincia de Baleares. Ley Orgánica 1/2007, de 28 de febrero, de reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de las Illes Balears.
- ^ Ley 3/1986, de 19 de abril, de normalización linguística. Ley 13/1997, de 25 de abril, por la que pasa a denominarse oficialmente Illes Balears la Provincia de Baleares. Ley Orgánica 1/2007, de 28 de febrero, de reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de las Illes Balears.
- ^ Ley 3/1986, de 19 de abril, de normalización linguística. Ley 13/1997, de 25 de abril, por la que pasa a denominarse oficialmente Illes Balears la Provincia de Baleares. Ley Orgánica 1/2007, de 28 de febrero, de reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de las Illes Balears.