Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/2016 March 30

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March 30

Rumination Syndrome Weight Loss

Hey, I have rumination syndrome and I was recently reading the article on it. I am a bit underweight, and I was surprised that this might be due to a RS symptom occurring in 42.2% of people "at an average loss of 9.6 kilograms, and is more common in cases where the disorder has gone undiagnosed for a longer period of time, though this may be expected of the nutrition deficiencies that often accompany the disorder as a consequence of its symptoms". 1) How do the symptoms cause nutrition deficiencies? 2) Which symptoms in particular? 3) What effect does nutrition deficiencies have on weight? 4) Why is this so drastic (9.6 kilos average!!!)? Thanks JoshMuirWikipedia (talk) 11:14, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I can't help you much right now, but I want to stress that you asked four very specific questions about a named syndrome, and we can in principle provide references that may address those questions. I have numbered them for our convenience. The fact that you may or may not have this syndrome is irrelevant. I will personally be watching this thread, and removing any responses that give (or appear to give) medical advice. For 3) you might start at Malnutrition#Diseases, which discusses how certain disorders can cause malnutrition and weight loss in general, though it does not say anything about Rumination Syndrome in particular. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:00, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I was just about to offer the standard "we cannot provide medical advice" response, but I think SemanticMantis is correct that we can provide links to sources. But honestly, for serious conditions like this, isn't it better to trust your treating professional rather than "doctor google"? Eliyohub (talk) 14:02, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Sure, I'll tell OP right now to go see a doctor. But I'm pretty sure he already knows he can see a doctor. He's probably already seen a doctor. And none of that really matters, because these are just questions about a medical condition, and OP is clearly not seeking any diagnosis, prognosis, or treatment. But sometimes people just want to know information. And most doctors won't do literature searches and summary for you on the spot. Sometimes we do :) SemanticMantis (talk) 14:08, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Also here [1] is a link to the abstract of the article that is cited by our WP article to support the quote you gave. It says " Weight loss was described by 42.2% (median: 7 kg)". Now our article may be reporting a mean that is higher than the median, but the 7kg median is a little more reasonable (perhaps there was one high-loss outlier). I also note that the sample was a bit small, only 147 patients. Finally "Outcome data (at median follow-up 10 months) were available for 54 patients. Symptoms resolved in 16 (30%) and improved in 30 (56%)." If you would like full access to that article, you can ask at WP:REX, or contact me at my talk page. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:08, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

What is the substance which makes the yellow color of the urine?

93.126.95.68 (talk) 14:37, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Urochrome. If instead of coming here and waiting for someone to answer it, you had typed your exact question into Google, you'd have gotten your answer faster. In general, questions can often be answered faster just by typing what you would ask here directly into Google and reading a few links. If that doesn't work, THEN come here and ask. --Jayron32 14:40, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

off-topic banter
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Yeah but then you would have nothing to do, would you??--178.101.224.162 (talk) 00:03, 31 March 2016 (UTC) You forgot to put that joke in small print. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:36, 31 March 2016 (UTC) I can't speak for Jayron, but my project to read the whole Web is somewhat backed up. —Tamfang (talk) 18:43, 2 April 2016 (UTC) ...unless your question is "What is the TRUTH about black helicopters?". The links Google returns for that question are...interesting. :) --Guy Macon (talk) 15:53, 30 March 2016 (UTC) I don't believe urochrome has anything to do with why helicopters may be black. I believe that is because of black paint. It may take a bit more research to look into which pigments are commonly used in black paint. But entirely irrelevant to answering the posed question, because the OP asked only about yellow urine. --Jayron32 16:27, 30 March 2016 (UTC) Ah. I had not realized that your advice above was only for someone asking about the color of urine. It looked a lot like general advice for all sorts of questions. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:36, 30 March 2016 (UTC) I feel a song coming on... "Urachro...oh...ohm, gives us that nice, yellow color, makes us feel all the world's a sunny day...ay...ay". StuRat (talk) 17:15, 30 March 2016 (UTC) When I think back to all the piss I learned in high school, it's a wonder I can think at all....--Jayron32 18:39, 30 March 2016 (UTC) Or "...it's a wonder I can tinkle at all". StuRat (talk) 19:46, 30 March 2016 (UTC) Yellow lamppost, what'cha knowin'? I come to ask: "What was that flowin' In the staggering drunk-guy's pee? Oh, oh! Uro-chrome streaks on theeeee." -- DMacks (talk) 21:15, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Is there a species that comes in at least 3 very saturated and very different colors?

Like red, green, and blue or violet. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:42, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Scarlet Macaw? They are a bright, saturated red, blue, and yellow. --Jayron32 16:57, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

(ec) Do you mean one individual has all those colors at once ? If so, some types of parrot may qualify, or a mandrill (red, blue and cyan). Since many species have brightly colored eyes, that may count as the third color in many cases. If you mean a species which has multiple color phases, each with one distinct bright color, that may be harder to find. StuRat (talk) 16:59, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

(ec) A number of fish species, take e.g. the Siamese fighting fish that you can find in red, purple, blue, orange etc. - Lindert (talk) 17:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

(ec) Do you mean a single individual of a species that has three colours? The Mandrill would be a contender for this. If you mean individuals that are a single colour only, but this differs within species, this is rather unlikely because individuals within a species all evolve to have a similar appearance for communication purposes. This breaks down for animals we have artificially selected and we can find a wide range of colours in these (e.g. cats, dogs, guinea pigs), but the colour blue is quite rare in mammals. DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:04, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

You might also consider animals that can change their colors, like the cuttlefish. (Chameleons can change to bright green, but not sure if any other colors they can manage would qualify as "saturated"). StuRat (talk) 17:11, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

One place to start understanding colours is Biological pigmentation. DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:10, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Wow! Take a look here[2] I have never seen a red budgie before! Follow-up. This site claims the photo of the red budgie is a fake.[3]DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:20, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

@DrChrissy: That hypersaturated image could be fake, but there are others on the web, and I found this video of a partially red budgie which seemed pretty convincing. Nothing is impossible in biology, but changing structural color should be significantly more possible than usual, because making it red just means putting the ridges further apart. So the claim that it can't be true because of a "color palette" is entirely baseless, AFAIK. Wnt (talk) 00:49, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

@Wnt: Thanks very much for that. Much more convincing. The budgie is a myriad of apparent colours! Did you notice the blue beak (not just the cere) and the apparently green legs! DrChrissy ^(talk) 13:11, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I think you're probably looking for a certain type of Polymorphism_(biology). That article has many examples you can go through, but one that fits pretty well is the famous Common_side-blotched_lizard, whose three primary male morphs participate in a very interesting paper-rock-scissors mating competition. Their color schemes are orange, blue, and yellow [4]. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:36, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I was looking for polymorphism. I guess there are species like that then. That's a cool lizard. God must've sprinkled extra interesting powder on it while designing.. Now I'm wondering if there's any bioluminescent species of jellyfish or something that come in different "glow races". Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:03, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

ASK and ye shall receive :) Three colors of glow in this [5] beetle, from green to yellow to orange, similar deal with male polymorphism seemingly related to mating strategies/courtship behavior. They say it's the only known example of color polymorphism of bioluminescence. Here's some of the published research on it [6] [7], and because it's so cool, here is a figure from the PNAS paper that shows some of the colors both on the beetles and cloned alleles expressed by E. Coli in petri dishes. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:29, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

It'd be a shame if an asteroid barely exterminated the beetles in a 147 mile circle and Jamaica was inside. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:41, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I assume you mean animal species? Because there are hundreds of plant species that have flowering bodies and folliage in various colors. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:43, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

We humans have quite a few different hair, eye and skin colors...admittedly not "very saturated" colors - but it demonstrates that evolution allows multiple colors to remain in a population. SteveBaker (talk) 19:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Maybe a person with bright red hair and two different color eyes might qualify ? StuRat (talk) 19:52, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

That will be the much missed David Bowie as Ziggie Stardust [8] DrChrissy ^(talk) 20:17, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

It's actually a very common misconception that David Bowie had different colored eyes, his eyes were both blue, but he had a condition called anisocoria which makes the iris enlarged only giving the appearance that one eye is much darker than the other. Vespine (talk) 00:19, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Further, I know some birds have already been mentioned, here are a couple more that might qualify which i have seen in my own back yard, rainbow lorikeet and Eastern rosella. Vespine (talk) 00:22, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I was aware that some tropical birds have many colors but I was wondering about something like Siamese fighting fish. I didn't know what they looked like but know I know (red or orange or yellow or green or turquoise or blue or purple or black or white or albino or blue+purple or..., depending on genes) . Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:15, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Can anyone name a legal compound of Bromphiramine X, where X is an expectorrant, but not considered a "cough medicine"?

Basically, I have been told that Brompheniramine is now illegal as a capsular antihistamine (In the US), although it is still available as an out-of-pocket liquid anti-cough compound. The problem is that the compound runs $40 for a 4 day dose. I am curious if there is a cheaper formulation that has a monthly dose of brompheniramine, which I took as an antihistamine for two decades, until it was outlawed after someone watched Breaking Bad. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 21:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

If you want to ping User:Yanping Nora Soong, you should just do it, and if you want the question to be for him alone, you should post it to his talk page. That said, I would suspect chicanery, since it does not take much for greedy medical industry officials to ban a generic in favor of something patented, exclusive, or otherwise monopolized. I see some evidence the product is "discontinued" here, but that doesn't say when or why. Their entry on the U.S. code seems to treat it as legitimate. [9] The news mentions a ban on OTC cough products for kids under 2 as of 2008 or so, but I don't see anything recent. I see concerns about dementia but they seem to skew over to chlorpheniramine when checked - not sure this has been identified for this drug, let alone that it's the reason. Searching Walmart's site for it comes up with some cough elixirs containing it... all marketed at children, oddly enough, though presumably older than two. Now compounding pharmacies are sort of the kung fu heroes of American culture, and it does look like some hits come up that way [10]. I remain almost entirely ignorant of this issue, and if you can post your original point of contact with the "Breaking Bad" story I'd like to see it. It doesn't look much like methamphetamine, but it might cause a false-positive on a test. [11] Wnt (talk) 00:03, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I just wanted attention from someone who might be a little better at reading the relevant literature than I. Putting the name in the header is not good for a few reasons, so I have edited it, thanks. μηδείς (talk) 18:53, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

If you have been taking it for two decades you may only think you need it, because being an ephedrine your body may have down rated production of your natural ephedrine. So I am not even going to mention even one of the cheap herbal alternatives. Go to you GP, give him your history and listen to what he advises. If you live in the US where doctors are money hungry and don't tend to give impartial advice seek out a trust worthy medically qualified relative. Normally it is bad practice to seek medical advice from a relative but he may be able to point you in the right direction to get proper effective treatment.--Aspro (talk) 00:43, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

@Aspro: Our article does not call the drug an "ephedrine", but an anticholinergic and possibly antimuscarinic. Ephedrine is a sympathomimetic. It isn't very close to ephedrine physically - for example, note the nitrogen is three rather than two carbons from the phenyl ring and the crucial alpha methyl group of ephedrine and methamphetamine is missing from brompheniramine. If it cross-reacts on a test I'd guess this just means it's a lousy test that will give a positive with practically any alkaloid.

Also, I think you're wandering into medical advice territory when all that was asked was where/whether the drug was available. We should keep our eye on the ball and figure out what happened regarding its availability. Wnt (talk) 11:33, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

This seller of one capsular product containing brompheniramine [12] says it's unavailable due to manufacturing problems not that it's been discontinued. [13] doesn't even mention supply problems. There are also various info pages like [14] [15] (for some reason I can't access these pages unless I use a US proxy) although the later is a tablet not a capsule and I'm not certain these are still sold.

As with Wnt, I don't see why you think this whatever has happened has something to do with Breaking Bad, as I can't see any info suggesting Brompheniramine is use for illicit drug manufacturing. Since you want an expectorant, perhaps you're confused. I see many formulations with brompheniramine also have pseudoephedrine as a decongestant. It's possible some of these formulations have been banned or restricted (or discontinued because even licit sales have dropped off too much due to the restrictions), but that would likely be because of the pseudoephedrine not because of the brompheniramine.

I also doubt it has anything to do with Breaking Bad even if it did happen. Pseudoephedrine restrictions mostly predated Breaking Bad or at least were well discussed before then. E.g. Combat Methamphetamine Epidemic Act of 2005 as you may guess from the title in the US was before Breaking Bad. In NZ, the most significant (and controversial particularly due to questions over whether phenylephrine is actually effective) restrictions only came after it had started. But the diversion of pseudoephedrine in to making P (meth) was discussed well before Breaking Bad and some restrictions had already been put in place. There was little mention of Breaking Bad in the restrictions and IMO it's fairly unlikely it was much of a factor. (Now a lot of the pseudoephedrine is illegal imported from China.)

Actually [16] while after the first season of Breaking Bad suggests the restrictions actually resulted in an increase in products which just had brompheniramine, and again since we're talking about the US here, there's surely little doubt that these restrictions had little to do with Breaking Bad.

[17], [18] and [19] has some discussion on the historic discontinuation of some products containing brompheniramine, the reasons stated don't seem to suggest it has anything to do with illicit drug manufacturing or Breaking Bad. Incidentally, there's some recent discussion on page 2 of that first link, but it doesn't seem to be a recent change [20] so I presume it's not the reason for the possible current supply limitations of that particular brompheniramine containing product. Dexbrompheniramine/pseudoephedrine mentions another antihistamine (dexbrompheniramine instead of brompheniramine) which was historically removed from the US market for unclear reasons but possibly not anything to do with illicit drug manufacturing and unlikely anything to do with Breaking Bad.

P.S. I can't help with specific marketing definitions of these drugs which I guess is related to insurance, as it's not something I have to deal with or have any desire to learn to deal with. Suffice it to say, if it's true you can't find the drug you want, it seems very unlikely it's anything to do with concerns over brompheniramine being used for illicit drug manufacturing and particularly not concerns that arose from Breaking Bad. There's a slight chance the removal of the drug you want is due to illicit drug concerns (but probably still not Breaking Bad) most likely pseudoephedrine if it contained that.

But since I presume you're talking about something very recent i.e. in the past year or so (as said, the pseudoephedrine issues are fairly historic now), for once I think Wnt's conspiracy theories may be the more likely reason. It's either FDA requirements unrelated to illicit drug concerns, or simple the manufacturing wanting to only sell more modern antihistamine they can charge more for. (There is a possibility restrictions imposed have dropped licit drug sales enough that when combined with other more recent issues, the manufacturer decided it was no longer profitable i.e. it was a contributing factor even if not the final nail.)

P.P.S. Let's not forget Breaking Bad dissed pseudoephedrine meth manufacturing anyway.

P.P.P.S. While this isn't medical advice, if it was a medical professional who told you Breaking Bad or at least illicit drug manufacturing is the reason and they aren't able to offer good evidence for this, perhaps it's time to seek an alternative to more than the specific medication you're looking for.

Nil Einne (talk) 13:56, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

From those last references it is now clear that this is part of the Unapproved Drugs Initiative, which is most famous for its first feat of seizing colchicine from gout patients. Even after manufacturing is restored the medicine will not be affordable - possibly for a limited term, though I expect that some evergreening tactic or other will keep it unaffordable indefinitely. It is indeed all about money, and so what remains is a straightforward exercise of smuggling vital medicines past the officials of a corrupt regime. Wnt (talk) 14:12, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

• Thanks for all the help above. I'll have to follow all the links. The allusion to Breaking Bad was just shorthand for the Methamphetamine act, which took a lot of drugs off market. I always have had very bad allergies, and am currently taking a first-generation antihistamine QID, which works quite well. But I had been taking Bromfed, as needed, for about 25 years. I only very rarely took two pills a day, and often might only take 4 or 5 pills a week, even during allergy season.

At one point I lost my insurance, during which time I used benadryl, about 8-12 a day. When I got coverage back, I asked the doctor to put me back on Bromfed. Two pharmacies told me they couldn't find it anywhere, and then on my third try, the pharmacist said it had been discontinued in pill form due to the law mentioned above. I have an appointment with a specialist tomorrow, so I will have this at hand when i go in. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 18:53, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Damn, this is not easy. I looked up a document by some dog owners looking to get colchicine for some misguided breed of dog they like. The document dated 10/2014 listed four places that sold colchicine, all of which appear to still have the product listed, though you may have to chop off the subpage on the URLs (though until you get to the final transaction screen you never know if they'll say no wait...). These were www.universaldrugstore.com, www.canadadrugs.com, alldaychemist.com, and (to veterinarians) wedgewoodpetrx.com. But none of the four had a listing for brompheniramine! Wnt (talk) 21:30, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Allergens in mushrooms

Are they destroyed by cooking? This is not a medical question. I am just wondering about the nature of the allergen. I read somewhere that it is a protein and elsewhere that it is spores. Thank you kindly. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:59, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

probably not: http://www.eufic.org/page/en/page/FAQ/faqid/does-heating-affect-food-allergens/ 68.48.241.158 (talk) 00:40, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Do you really mean allergens, or just toxins as in the deathcap mushroom ? The toxins survive cooking (that is, they exhibit thermostability). StuRat (talk) 01:37, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I mean like for food allergy people. Whatever they are allergic to. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:25, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Wouldn't that depend on exactly which compounds in the mushroom they are allergic to? Different compounds will have different responses to different cooking conditions. If you can name specific allergans within mushrooms, perhaps we could research how cooking affects them. --Jayron32 02:30, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Oh, dear. I didn't think of that. I just thought there would be one allergen. And I don't even know the name of any allergen in mushrooms. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:55, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Since the article doesn't say, is there any proven safe way to de-toxify a mushroom? I'm thinking of a film I saw in high school, which showed some native American women preparing acorns to be consumable, by a process where they grind them into a flour and then use water repeatedly to leach out the tannic acid. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:53, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

See Mushroom allergy - it seems that a lot more people are allergic to breathing spores than to eating them, but "nobody knows" probably sums it up fairly well. Alansplodge (talk) 12:23, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm talking about the deadly toxins in certain mushrooms, not allergens. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:15, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

There are lots of factors in play here. Many things are detoxified by cooking. Acorns are not exactly detoxified -- they contain high levels of tannins, which are water-soluble and can be washed out by grinding them up and soaking them in water. The same treatment is also often used, for the same reason, with olives. Regarding allergies, they are most commonly caused by proteins, which are usually denatured by cooking. Denaturing a protein greatly reduces the allergenic potential of a protein but may not eliminate it -- it depends on details of the shape of the protein. Looie496 (talk) 14:37, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Fly agaric can apparently be detoxified by appropriate cooking methods. Note that that does not necessarily apply to any other fungus. Iapetus (talk) 16:18, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

That's interesting, I was only familiar with the users who preferred to eat it with the toxins intact- Berserker#Theories. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:25, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you everyone! :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:43, 1 April 2016 (UTC)