Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2024 January 21
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January 21
editSt Mary, Battersea, Surrey, England
editI'm researching my genealogy and am getting stuck with this place name. I find the convoluted interdivisions of England hopelessly complicated, but Battersea and Surrey are non-overlapping places, correct? Assuming that the St. Mary mentioned is St Mary's Church, Battersea, does "Battersea, Surrey" make sense? My naive use of Google Maps says that they're an hour apart. But maybe there's more than one Battersea? More than one Surrey? My source could simply be wrong, of course, but it seems scrupulously researched for the most part and it has used this place designation more than once. Matt Deres (talk) 14:48, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- Battersea St Mary is the name of an old parish in Wandsworth and Clapham which makes up what we know as Battersea today. The other old parish was Battersea St George. St Mary was the Parish Church. this website has a number of the parish records and images. As per the Battersea article "Until 1889, the parish of Battersea was recognised as part of Surrey, after which the newly formed County of London came into being and took over administration of the area." Nanonic (talk) 15:21, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- And you'll probably be thinking 'what on earth is all this talk of parishes??' - see civil parish, parish and parish church. Nanonic (talk) 15:25, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Matt Deres: St Mary's is the original parish church of Battersea, which although now very much part of inner London was part of the county of Surrey for most of its history. As London expanded in the 19th century, it absorbed a lot of territory from the surrounding counties (now known as the Home Counties), and particularly from Surrey: the Surrey county boundary originally went all the way up to the shore of the River Thames – which coincidentally is exactly where St Mary's Church stands. Nanonic has already covered most of the relevant points, but I will also point you to the draft edition of The Survey of London volume on Battersea, which has been made freely available online. By complete coincidence I have been researching this in-depth in the last few weeks, so I have it saved in my Favourites! Here is the chapter on churches and chapels; I suggest reading the whole thing for the full story, but St Mary's specifically is covered on pages 11–32. For the avoidance of doubt, there is definitely only one Battersea, and references to "Battersea, Surrey" would have been correct and valid until the County of London was formed in 1889, after which "Battersea, London" was appropriate. Battersea now makes up part of the London Borough of Wandsworth. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 16:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- Good lord. How the hell did these folks run an empire? :-) The title is the exact spelling used in the documents I've found and they refer to events right at the end of the 19th century (example). How likely is it that the "St Mary, Battersea, Surrey" there is the church I linked (or, at least, the parish that supported it)? BTW, thank you both for the information. Matt Deres (talk) 20:41, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- I think the chance is 100%; there is only one St Mary's Church, Battersea. Although the County of London was created in 1889, we are a conservative people and would have continued using the old county names for some time after they became technically obsolete. By way of an example, many people in London still include Middlesex in their postal address, even though the entire county was swallowed by Greater London in 1965 and so hasn't actually existed for nearly 60 years (our article, historic counties of England, has more on our illogical attachment to former administrative areas). Alansplodge (talk) 12:30, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- Another point; The Oval, the home ground of Surrey County Cricket Club, is only three miles away from St Mary's Battersea and actually closer to the centre of London. Alansplodge (talk) 12:39, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, it's not just "some people": Royal Mail uses "Middlesex" in addresses. https://www.royalmail.com/services-near-you/post-office/edgware-ha8-7au ColinFine (talk) 21:42, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- Curious; I thought they only needed a postcode. Alansplodge (talk) 22:57, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, it's not just "some people": Royal Mail uses "Middlesex" in addresses. https://www.royalmail.com/services-near-you/post-office/edgware-ha8-7au ColinFine (talk) 21:42, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- Great - thank you kindly! Matt Deres (talk) 01:06, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- To get some idea of the rabbit hole that is Local Authority identity and addressing in the UK, try Geograph.org's 35 page article. The house where I live has been in four different (in both name and extent) county-level areas in my lifetime. The Post Office addresses round here name a county that they are not and never have been in. -- Verbarson talkedits 13:39, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- Another point; The Oval, the home ground of Surrey County Cricket Club, is only three miles away from St Mary's Battersea and actually closer to the centre of London. Alansplodge (talk) 12:39, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- I think the chance is 100%; there is only one St Mary's Church, Battersea. Although the County of London was created in 1889, we are a conservative people and would have continued using the old county names for some time after they became technically obsolete. By way of an example, many people in London still include Middlesex in their postal address, even though the entire county was swallowed by Greater London in 1965 and so hasn't actually existed for nearly 60 years (our article, historic counties of England, has more on our illogical attachment to former administrative areas). Alansplodge (talk) 12:30, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
- Good lord. How the hell did these folks run an empire? :-) The title is the exact spelling used in the documents I've found and they refer to events right at the end of the 19th century (example). How likely is it that the "St Mary, Battersea, Surrey" there is the church I linked (or, at least, the parish that supported it)? BTW, thank you both for the information. Matt Deres (talk) 20:41, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Matt Deres: St Mary's is the original parish church of Battersea, which although now very much part of inner London was part of the county of Surrey for most of its history. As London expanded in the 19th century, it absorbed a lot of territory from the surrounding counties (now known as the Home Counties), and particularly from Surrey: the Surrey county boundary originally went all the way up to the shore of the River Thames – which coincidentally is exactly where St Mary's Church stands. Nanonic has already covered most of the relevant points, but I will also point you to the draft edition of The Survey of London volume on Battersea, which has been made freely available online. By complete coincidence I have been researching this in-depth in the last few weeks, so I have it saved in my Favourites! Here is the chapter on churches and chapels; I suggest reading the whole thing for the full story, but St Mary's specifically is covered on pages 11–32. For the avoidance of doubt, there is definitely only one Battersea, and references to "Battersea, Surrey" would have been correct and valid until the County of London was formed in 1889, after which "Battersea, London" was appropriate. Battersea now makes up part of the London Borough of Wandsworth. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 16:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)