Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2017 October 8

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October 8

UK traffic law - bus lane and emergency vehicles

THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, NOR SHOULD IT BE TAKEN FOR SUCH (The Ref Desks are a Daytime Talk Show. μηδείς (talk) 21:53, 8 October 2017 (UTC))

I have asked a number of people this question and not found the definitive answer. If you are driving along next to a bus lane and an emergency vehicle is coming up behind you with lights or sirens should you

1. Pull over into the bus lane and stop to let it pass.
2. Pull over into the bus lane and keep going, allowing it to overtake.
3. Keep going in your lane so that the emergency vehicle can take the bus lane and undertake
4. Stop in your lane so that the emergency vehicle can pass in the bus lane.

I would go with option 1 (and have done), as this makes it clear to the emergency vehicle what you are doing, gives the most space, and seems safest. A number of people have said that this would be illegal and if you were caught by an enforcement camera you'd be fined. They tend to see 3 or 4 as the best answer. One friend said 2, reasoning that emergency drivers are used to overtaking so there would be no need to stop. I am assuming that the road is pretty empty, if there was a line of cars I would do what all the others did to give the emergency vehicle a clear run in whichever lane was free. One of the more bizarre answers was that you could move into the bus lane for the police but not fire or ambulance - because emergency police lights would count as being directed to enter the bus lane by a police officer. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:39, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

See Why you could be fined for letting an emergency vehicle past which quotes the chief executive of GEM Motoring Assist: "The key thing is that blue light drivers have certain exemptions from rules of the road which the rest of us don’t. That’s why it’s much better for us to let emergency drivers find their way around us. Leave the bus lanes and red traffic lights to them". On that basis, the option 3 above is correct. Alansplodge (talk) 13:53, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks that's an interesting (if worrying) article. In future I'll just keep driving along at the same speed. -- Q Chris (talk) 15:31, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Is that not an offence in British driving law, then? --69.159.60.147 (talk) 21:10, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

No, the advice in the Highway Code is to: "take appropriate action to let it [the emergency vehicle] pass, while complying with all traffic signs". [1] In this case, the signs will say that it is forbidden for cars to enter the bus lane and forbidden to exceed the speed limit, so the emergency vehicle will either have to stay behind or find a way round you. Alansplodge (talk) 23:01, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Interesting. Compare the equivalent section here in Ontario. (In practice most drivers won't actually stop if they can leave a lane clear for the emergency vehicle to pass them, but they're supposed to.) --69.159.60.147 (talk) 04:03, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

3 or 4. NEVER do something illegal yourself (go into a bus lane, through a red light), no matter what type of emergency vehicle is behind you. It might feel like the right thing to do at the time, but you'll end up with three points on your license and an increase in your car insurance. Unless you have the time/effort to challenge the local authority your caught in. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 14:03, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

There was a case in Brighton last year. The council fined a driver, on appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal the fine was overturned. Story here. DuncanHill (talk) 15:36, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

This is covered by the Highway Code, apparently [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. The New Zealand equivalent is apparently the "Road Code" [7]. Some jurisdictions have specific laws [8], [9]. America uses the acronym SIREN [http://www.idrivesafely.com/driving-resources/how-to/emergency-vehicles]. 92.8.220.234 (talk) 17:39, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Another reason for 3 (besides being the safe answer as you're not breaking one law to follow another) is that bus lanes are usually underused and the emergency vehicle is probably going to be coming on that lane already, and it's obviously not a good idea to pull over right into its path. 78.0.249.123 (talk) 04:32, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I'd go with Option 5: None of the above. But specifically, move to the far left or right of your lane, allowing the emergency vehicle enough space to get through. If you were travelling on a one-lane road, that's what you'd do, and there'd be plenty of space. The rules are written without assuming the number of lanes is greater than 1, or that there's a bus lane adjacent. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:08, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I 'spect roads are a bit wider in Australia than here; there generally isn't room for two vehicles in one lane. Alansplodge (talk) 11:49, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

There is a general principle in US and other law that if the circumstances are such that following the law will cause more harm to the public good than not following the law, then the law is unenforceable in those circumstances. See Necessity (criminal law). For example, breaking into a house is a crime, but if you only did so because someone was dying and you desperately needed to find a phone, then the act of breaking into the house should not be criminal. Personally, I would say that the minor crime of entering a bus lane in order to allow an emergency vehicle to pass, ought to qualify. Of course, local jurisdictions may be inclined to fight you on that and arguing the point in court would likely to be both expensive and time consuming. Dragons flight (talk) 08:07, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Just two minutes ago as I was crossing a junction with two lanes of traffic in either direction separated by a pedestrian island I saw an ambulance support vehicle in the outside lane with siren blaring. The light changed to red and the driver immediately turned the siren off. The leading vehicles nosed out into the junction - there was no prospect of them going any further because the cross traffic was on the main London/Cambridge trunk road. There were two vehicles in each lane behind the stop line ahead of the ambulance. The second vehicle on the inside lane drove onto the pavement and then back onto the road. As I left nobody was doing anything, which was probably the safest thing to do. 92.8.220.234 (talk) 12:51, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Emergency vehicles are now trained to turn their sirens off in traffic light queues, so as not to encourage other drivers to jump the lights. The source for this is a friend who trains St John Ambulance "blue light" drivers. Alansplodge (talk) 20:07, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I just encountered that situation today. I was parked at the front on the line, when a fire truck joined the back of the line, with lights and sirens blaring. They cut out the sirens when they got there, but left the lights on. I then crossed the intersection, when the light turned green, and pulled aside. It seemed to work, as the fire truck got through.

But as for legal necessity, too often the real reason for fines is "revenue enhancement", not punishing offenders. With that in mind, they want to charge a fine whenever they can get away with it, not when somebody does something dangerous. Hence speed traps, etc. The massive conflict of interest in allowing them to collect money from those they convict ultimately leads to the same type of abuses seen under Judge Roy Bean. StuRat (talk) 23:31, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

In contrast to the above, what I'd expect here (Ontario) is that when an emergency vehicle approaches an intersection with the traffic light red and its own lights and siren on, traffic approaching the intersection from all four directions stops and the emergency vehicle crosses to the left (wrong) side of the road. If the traffic light is still red when it reaches the intersection it's required to stop for a moment. After stopping or if the light has turned green, it proceeds in any of the three possible directions, crossing back to the right now that it's passed the stopped traffic going in that direction. I live near a fire station and some traffic lights and I see this sort of thing fairly frequently. Of course, it would be more difficult if there was a barrier between opposing directions of traffic, or if the streets were one-way, etc. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 02:32, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I was on a divided highway, making crossing into oncoming traffic lanes impossible. StuRat (talk) 02:34, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

How to propose change in general statistics page

The page https://xtools.wmflabs.org/ec/en.wikipedia.org has just changed its content. It now seems to confuse deletion of sandbox with reverted edits (29% of my edits were not deleted!). Where do I propose a change in this statistic? Jzsj (talk) 05:39, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Try Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) for starters. Alansplodge (talk) 08:47, 8 October 2017 (UTC)