Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 July 16

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July 16

How to sell loose diamonds ?

I've inherited 40 loose diamonds, in the 1-3 carat range, all cut (mostly round cut, with a few emerald cut). There's no documentation or apparent certification, and I suspect that most were cut 35-135 years ago. I'd like to sell them. My goals:

1) To get as good a price as possible.

2) To remain safe.

I suspect that the best way to get a good price is to take them to several jewelers, have each appraise them (watching them the whole time so they don't swap gems on me), and take the highest bid on each stone. However, I'm a bit worried about security. There's the risk that somebody seeing me sitting with a jeweler, having the gems appraised, will wait until I leave, then rob me, and maybe shoot me.

A) So, how can I do this safely ?

B) One thought I had was to put them in a safe-deposit box in a bank, and ask the jewelers to come there to do appraisals. Do they make such house calls ?

C) Would they charge for that, versus a free appraisal at their shop ?

D) And would a bank allow that ?

E) And how long does it take to appraise each diamond ?

F) Also, what's a good site to find the price I can expect when selling the diamonds (as opposed to a jeweler selling them), given the cut, color, clarity, condition and carats ?

G) What about using an independent appraiser (who doesn't buy or sell) ? They charge fees, and I'm not sure what good their appraisals do, since buyers will likely insist on doing their own appraisal. So, is my instinct to skip them and just get multiple bids from buyers correct ?

H) Should I look for inscribed GIA certification numbers (or other serial numbers) on such old diamonds ?

I) Can I sell diamonds anonmyously, so there isn't a record of my address, for a potential thief to use to try to find more diamonds ? Would they give me a check written to "cash" ?

I'm in the Ann Arbor, Michigan area, but would be willing to drive throughout Southeastern Michigan to get a good price.

68.79.93.3 (talk) 06:30, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

It may be best to hire a professional to broker them for you. I don't have any idea if there are diamond brokers though, nor would I know if paying their commission would be worth the increase in time/profit.AerobicFox (talk) 07:23, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't trust them to take custody of the diamonds, as they could then swap them and keep the more valuable diamonds, or lie about how much they got for them, or collude with a buyer to sell them cheaply (and then get a kick-back from the buyer). 68.79.93.3 (talk) 07:34, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Standard practices are going to vary depending on where you are and who you're dealing with. (You never mentioned where in the world you are) The easiest way to go about item B is to call local jewelers and ask what they normally do in such cases. If they have much experience, they'll have encountered situations like this before. There would be no need to identify who you are when contacting them, so your identity to this point would still remain unknown and safe. And as far as item D is concerned, if I were a bank manager, I'd bend over backwards to make sure that you had time and space (conference room) to get the appraisal done in hopes that you deposited your money with me and my bank. Dismas|^(talk) 07:37, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

(I added my location above.) 68.79.93.3 (talk) 08:02, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I think you're being a bit paranoid here, assuming these jewelers are not operating out a back alley they're not especially likely to steal from you, its kind of hard to get repeat business if you rip your customers off. If you're really that worried, why not just take one diamond to each of the jewlers, losing 1 is not as bad as losing all of them, ditto for getting mugged. Also appraisers are more likely to know people willing to buy diamonds, so it may be that the charge is worth it if you make more than you would on your own--Jac16888 ^Talk 07:45, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

My understanding is that the jewelry business is highly disreputable, due to consumers having no clue what the items are really worth, and having to trust the jewelers. And, when the customers are ripped off, they may not even know it, unless they had another appraisal. 68.79.93.3 (talk) 07:59, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Then perhaps professional broker who takes a cut is the best solution, since its in their best interests to sell them for as much as possible--Jac16888 ^Talk 08:13, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

As I said before, "I wouldn't trust them to take custody of the diamonds, as they could then swap them and keep the more valuable diamonds, or lie about how much they got for them, or collude with a buyer to sell them cheaply (and then get a kick-back from the buyer)." 68.79.93.3 (talk) 09:00, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

A book The Diamond Cutter (Doubleday 2000) by Geshe Michael Roach tells much about trade in loose diamonds, as well as relevant Buddhist teaching. There are diamond cutting houses in Amsterdam that are open to tourists. I expect that it is easy to meet a gem trader there. Thus have I heard. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:39, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I also think you are being a bit too anxious about the likelihood of being robbed or shafted. If you go to a reputable, public, business like this. (you'll notice they have a telephone number and a street address) you stand a good chance of getting a reasonable price for your stones. BUT, you need to go to 3 or 4 other jewellers or diamond buyers with one stone for valuation to assess what a reasonable price might be for all your stones (assuming they are broadly similar) and for you to see how the system works. At the moment you seem to have no idea how much these stones are worth. Before you sell them you need to find out or else you will be bargaining in ignorance. And remember - diamonds are forever - they are unlikely to fall significantly in value so there is no hurry. Richard Avery (talk) 13:41, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I concur that you are way too worried about being messed with by the actual dealer. First who would risk their professional reputation and business license in this way? It takes years of training to become certified to grade diamonds, on top of that it takes years if not decades in the business to establish a name. Most big jewelers are family businesses after all. They wouldn't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on advertising only to lose all their goodwill screwing a guy out of a few hundred bucks.

On top of that if they wanted to get one over on you, do you know the visual difference between a 2500 and a 2000 dollar diamond? He does. He could undervalue each of them by a small amount and not have to take any legal risk at all! HominidMachinae (talk) 19:24, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

That's where multiple bids come in. If at least one of them gives an honest bid, then the dishonest ones won't get the sale. There is some risk that the first one I visit will call the rest and they will collude to bid low, but hopefully they won't know which other jewelers I plan to go to. 68.79.93.3 (talk) 20:44, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I'll put things a different way from what people have said so far. In this age of virtually indistinguishable synthetics, concern over blood diamonds etc, I'd worry more about finding someone who'd actually be willing to buy your stones which may or may not be diamonds then being ripped off. Nil Einne (talk) 03:47, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Follow-up question: What is the typical markup on loose diamonds ? That is, how much more does a retailer sell them for than they would pay ? And, is it linear, or should I expect a higher markup percentage on smaller diamonds ? 68.79.93.3 (talk) 18:06, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

In a case like yours (see above), I'd expect them to have quite a high markup Nil Einne (talk) 03:48, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Drag and Drop Won't Work in Book Creator Editing Area

This question has been transferred to the Computing Section of the RD where it will be seen by more IT experienced deskers. Richard Avery (talk) 07:17, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

The new location of the post on Computing Section of the RD can be found here. Falconus^{p t c} 04:15, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

thyristor turn ON

what are the different firing circuits used to trigger a thyristor? which firing circuit will be more efficient? and what are the recent developments in firing circuits of thyristor? --Viplavchaitanya (talk) 16:15, 16 July 2011 (UTC)viplav

Wikipedia has an article about Thyristors. Here are application notes for high power thyristors and tutorial about thyristor circuits. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 02:20, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Cree territory

Why are not territory for cree or ojibway as Nunavut for innuits? Is it planed in future? Why undian reserves very small despite that native americans make the majority in many territory in Canada especially in north?--Kaiyr (talk) 10:13, 16 July 2011 (UTC) The above was copied from the Wikipedia talk:Canadian Wikipedians' notice board. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 17:04, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Besides Nunavut there is also Nunavik, Inuvialuit Settlement Region and Nunatsiavut which are all Inuit places with some degree of autonomy. The non-Inuit Aboriginal peoples in Canada are either Métis or First Nations and the Northwest Territories is the only place besides Nunavut where Aboriginal peoples are in a majority. Currently the Government of the Northwest Territories, the Federal Government and various First Nations/Métis are in discussion over self-governing regions, see here. Although not quite what you were asking take a look at List of communities in the Northwest Territories under the governance section. Unfortunately the amount of information at Aboriginal title#Canada is small and I don't know much about claims outside of the NWT or Nunavut. Perhaps someone else can help with that. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 17:04, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Some of the Cree are party to the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement of 1975 which gives them special hunting/fishing rights over 70% of Quebec. Rmhermen (talk) 17:24, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

See British Empire, Territorial evolution of Canada, and Manifest Destiny. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 17:38, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

For the First Nations who live further south, and have had contact with European colonial powers going back as far as the sixteenth century, the situation is much more complicated. Europeans never really colonized the arctic, at least not to the extent they did in central and eastern Canada, so there weren't as many pre-existing legal situations in the north as in the south/east. For example, in Ontario (I am certainly not an expert on this subject but I know a bit more about Ontario than the other provinces), there are treaties with individual native groups and tribes from the eighteenth century. In some cases, the natives did not understand the legal ramifications of what they were agreeing to, and sometimes the British did not actually follow the terms of the treaty. Sometimes the natives have just been forced off the land without any treaty process at all, especially in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. If I remember this correctly, some native groups have been trying to bring land claims to court, but there are so many cases to deal with that it could take decades, maybe even centuries, to settle every claim. Sometimes there are armed conflicts between the natives and local and provincial governments, instead of the protracted legal process; the Oka Crisis in Quebec for example, and the Ipperwash Crisis and Caledonia land dispute in Ontario. There is some more information about this in Numbered Treaties, Treaty Indian, and The Canadian Crown and Aboriginal peoples. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:12, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Artificial gems

I have some lab created gems, and wonder what their value is, if any. Two are red rubies, cylindrical, weighing 13 grams (65 carats) and 18 grams (90 carats). I believe they were originally created for ruby lasers. 68.79.93.3 (talk) 18:03, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Morion Company sells "Floating Point"(?) red rubies for $2.50 a carat. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:03, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. So it looks like, unlike diamonds, the price of rubies is strictly linear with size. I guess that makes sense with any gem that can be produced in quantity in a lab. So, my rubies would retail for $387.50, definitely worth selling, even if I can only get half as much. 68.79.93.3 (talk) 03:05, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

(OR) At the end of WW2 in the Philippines, locals sold "rubies" to gullible US soldiers. The alleged rubies were shards of smashed brake lights from vehicles. Thus have I heard. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:23, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Pearls

How do I estimate the value of loose white pearls ? One is 1 gram, the other is 2 grams.68.79.93.3 (talk) 20:54, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

It's really hard to say because there are a lot of unknowns. Larger pearls are not always more valuable because they sometimes have flaws due to their prolonged growth period, in addition it depends on color quality, shape, and many other factors. HominidMachinae (talk) 21:35, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

See the article Pearl, particularly Pearl#Value of a natural pearl. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:19, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

What is it that I am supposed to see?

There's this you tube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM6lGNhPujE where I guess you're supposed to see pretty faces turn ugly. I don't get it at all. Whatever the effect is supposed to be, I don't get it. When I look at the women they are not ugly. When I look at the cross , I just see flashing images on the side. When I look at the flashing images I just see various people's faces. Whatever the effect is, it's not working. Can anyone tell me what it is I am supposed to see? I may be unusual in that I have always failed at certain type of image illusions. For example, you know those pictures, stereographs or something like that, where you are supposed to see an image if you stare long, enough, relax your eyes, blur out your vision and so on? Well I first came across those about thirty years ago and I still have never been able to see any image in any of them.--108.46.103.142 (talk) 18:28, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

It works for me. When I focus on the cross, I don't get an impression of seeing the faces clearly, but I get an impression of grotesqueness. Looie496 (talk) 19:35, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

They "discoverers' have made the presentation more complicated than it need be. With a little variation on the presentation of the effect, I get the same effect with only 1 changing face, as long as I am not looking directly at it. Part of it seems to be presenting the photos in a visual area other than the foveal area of distinct vision, so we never see them clearly. I would also like to vary the presentation rate. Edison (talk) 19:58, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

It works for me. A face image is not just an array of pixels, it will be perceived as a person but reaching that subjective conclusion takes a little time. After it is reached, we are very sensitive to facial changes. When images of different faces are shown in succession faster than one can perceive them as separate persons, they are all perceived as one person undergoing unlikely, and therefore monstrous, distortions. To the OP, the video may not work for you if your time to perceive a person from their face is longer or shorter than average. Don't think of that as a failure. If interested, see the article about Autostereograms (which don't work for me). Cuddlyable3 (talk) 02:06, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

It seemed to me that, when not looking directly at them, I noticed some different parts of the face changing at different times. So, I might notice the eyes had moved but for a split second not notice that the rest of the face had moved, so I was "seeing" the eyes in an odd place, which makes the face look distorted. It will be to do with how we recognise faces. See Face perception for some discussion on the subject. --Tango (talk) 02:31, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

That's wild. Cool. Looks like something from X Files or They Live.μηδείς (talk) 20:09, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

It is not a very impressive effect, compared to the result of staring at a rotating spiral, then looking at someone's face, in which case the face seems to flow inward or outward opposite to the apparent motion of the spiral. I suspect that if it were carefully analyzed it would be found to be a specific instance of one of the well known perceptual effects from things changing outside foveal vision. Take away the frills and look at the basic phenomenon. Edison (talk) 17:29, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

If your effect is so much better, why not post a link. μηδείς (talk) 01:18, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I referred to the spiral aftereffect. Look at [1] for 30 seconds, then look at someone's face. They will appear to morph like super special effects in a wolfman movie, with parts of the face flowing inward and others outward.( Don't stare so long you get hypnotized.) Edison (talk) 05:14, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Administrative regions in the Northwest Territories

Where I can get map of Administrative regionss in the Northwest Territories?--Kaiyr (talk) 20:18, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Northwest Territories of which country? Rcsprinter (talk) 21:03, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I assume the OP means the province of Canada called the Northwest Territories. HominidMachinae (talk) 21:28, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm guessing you are asking about Northwest Territories, Canada? If that's the case then you can find them here. Royor (talk) 21:29, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

That shows the development of the NWT. I think what they mean is a map to match up with List of regions of the Northwest Territories#Administrative regions with their regional seats. If so I've never been able to find one but there must be one somewhere. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 22:50, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

You mean for Inuvik Region, Sahtu Region, Dehcho Region, North Slave Region, and South Slave Region? This is a rough map from Camping NWT. I'm sure a more detailed map is in an atlas somewhere (a real life library reference desk would probably be the best way to go for this). Royor (talk) 23:34, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

• • • Yes! It List of regions of the Northwest Territories#Administrative regions with their regional seats.--Kaiyr (talk) 23:31, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Royor, I think that is the only regional map I have seen. If you look at the "Cree Territories" question above, there are still ongoing land claims. Also some First Nations/Metis don't recognise the GNWT so that may be reason why there is no map showing the regions. I find it strange that neither the GNWT or the Atlas of Canada has one. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 03:10, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Is this the type of map you are looking for? (pdf map) ... It's from the official Northwest Territories government site. — Michael J 11:02, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Now I feel really stupid for nat having seen that before. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 14:17, 20 July 2011 (UTC)