Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 August 3

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August 3

Sabbath and thermostats

I read that a Jew can violate the laws of the Sabbath by entering an elevator, even without pressing any buttons, just because their body weight causes the elevator to detect that the car is occupied and switch to a different mode. My conclusion from this is that observant Jews are not allowed to influence the operation of electrical devices during Sabbath even just by being present. So what about thermostats, which may turn on later and off sooner because of their body heat? And what if a Jew accidentally triggers a motion sensor that turns on a light? NeonMerlin 00:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The answer to your question is yes, some consider it a violation of Shabbat to activate a motion sensor. I've been told about a guy who lived on a street with some Orthodox Jews who were upset at his motion-activated porch light, which turned on when someone walked by the house. They urged him to turn it off during Shabbat. As far as thermostats go, you may be interested in this page, which discusses the use of refrigerators with thermostats on Shabbat. Different rabbinic authorities have ruled differently on the matter. (Those who allow the use of refrigerators on Shabbat still require the light bulb to be unscrewed before Shabbat so that opening the door does not cause the light to go on.) As far as air conditioners and heating go, I've never heard of any issues with that. I'm no religious scholar, but I'd guess the impact of simply being in a house is so minor and incidental as to not be a concern. However, it would violate Shabbat to manually change the thermostat. -- Mwalcoff 05:44, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

They go to Jew Hell? No I'm just kidding, most Jews would not be quite that strict, and you have to remember, with religion, there are no strict rules, everything is interpreted. It may be a simplistic over generalisation but everyone just lives in a comfortable compromise, everyone will make up excuses with which they can live for doing or not doing just about anything according to their religion, mainly so they can sleep at night. There could be Jews that believe that, and go sleep in a log cabin over Sabbath, and most Jews probably don't care quite that much, technically your biological process is doing work so everyone has to draw the line somewhere. Vespine 00:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Vespine, granted that there may be religious Jews and non-religious Jews (and Jews who fall in between) you are causally dismissing the fact that there is a well developed system of Jewish Law which deal with these issues. For these issues there are various general rules at play. Without going in to too much detail, the factors include whether the action is direct, inevitable, intensional and beneficial. As far your questions go, the general consensus (though not universal) is: a thermostat is indirect, and not inevitable, and therefore permitted. A motion sensor is direct, inevitable and beneficial (you use the light even if you did not want it on) and therefore forbidden. If it is a small LCD-type light that is no use to anyone there are many that permit. The elevator is direct and inevitable and the pressing of a button by another in the elevator is directly beneficial, and is forbidden. A Sabbath elevator is a legitimate workaround. Jon513 11:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Some of these workarounds are quite absurd (and funny) to a non-Jew like myself, such as the electric oven with a feature that lets you still use it on the Sabbath: you press all the buttons you would normally press, and then walk away, and it waits a random amount of time (30-60 seconds) before it heats up or whatever, so it wasn't really you that controlled it. Like that is going to fool the Lord of all Creation! --TotoBaggins 14:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe the oven you're referring to allows people to program the oven before Shabbat, not to mess with it during the sabbath. -- Mwalcoff 22:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

No, they have two functions: 1) there's no automatic oven shutoff, so you can start the oven the day before, and 2) when you make a temperature adjustment, it waits a random amount of time before doing it, so the user is not responsible for the action. Similarly, Sabbath-mode refrigerators have a light that doesn't come on when you open the door, but instead waits a random 1-5 seconds, so the user didn't do it. Here is an interview with an engineer who did some of this work. It's all harmless as religious stuff goes, of course, but still seems like one of the more fanciful farces that people engage in. --TotoBaggins 23:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

You've entered the complex world of Halacha and interpretation thereof. "Two Jews, three opinions" is the old adage and it's pretty accurate. I'll restrict my response to modern, Orthodox approach to Halacha. Getting in a lift without pressing any buttons is sometimes permissible. In Israel, many hotels operate "shabbat lifts" which run automatically, stopping at pre-set floors. Otherwise, the usage of lifts (or, say, underground trains etc) even without transgression of any laws, is prohibited on at least two grounds - not being "in the spirit of shabbat" (a vast catch-all, often applied, say, to having a TV on a time-switch) and "ma'arat ayin", a concept difficult to explain in short, but meaning that a third party watching you may assume you've done wrong... which is a sin in itself and Jews are prohibited from causing other Jews to sin. (Sorry, that's as easy as I can make it).

Laws around thermostats are, believe it or not, even more complex. Forget about body heat - what about opening an operational oven, fridge or freezer? Most rabbis permit the latter two, some suggest that some models are more "shabbat friendly" than others. The oven is more complex, as the laws of cooking on shabbat are fiendish...

A true story to end with - a Rabbi completing an application form for his child to attend a Jewish school was asked "Do you keep the laws of Shabbat?" His answer would normally have secured an automatic rejection - but was both phenomenally honest and the result of more than the usual amount of learning in this area "We try, but it's very hard". Nuff said. --Dweller 10:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

As to the latter of those two categories, I think appearance of impropriety sounds similar. 68.39.174.238 21:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

analyizing financial statements

What do the five "C's" of credit refer to and what does each stand for: I know three of them are:collateral, character, capacity,…

1. Capacity
2. Capital
3. Collateral
4. Conditions
5. Character

[1] SteveBaker 01:09, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I would have guessed:

1) How much money they can Cheat you out of.

2) How big of a Chump they figure you are.

3) Whether you can be Chiseled out of your paycheck.

4 and 5) Whether you Clam up when ripped off or Complain to the regulators. StuRat 05:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

mitsubishi montero sport belts

how do i replace the belts on a 2000 Mitsubishi Montero Sport 3.0 Liter?

amanda

Go to your local parts store and buy either a Haynes or Chiltons manual for your make/model of vehicle and follow the instructions in the manual. A $20 manual will give you a lot of information about replacing belts, fuel pumps, starters, etc. Dismas|^(talk) 02:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Wells & Well Water in Texas

I'm about to buy a few acres of land in the Texas hill country (Near Austin) in order to build a house there. Some of the available lots are too far from civilisation to have mains water supply - requiring that a well be drilled...those seem suspiciously MUCH cheaper than those that have mains water.

• Roughly how much does drilling a well cost? Presumably it depends on the depth - give me a range of numbers please!
• Do they often run dry? If so, what does one do for water supply?
• Is a large reservoir tank required? How large?
• Is the water safe to drink? How (if at all) does one sanitize it?
• As I understand it, the water pump has to go at the bottom of the well - what happens if/when it fails?
• Is there some rule about separating the well from the septic tank system? (I hope so!)

Any well-related information would be useful because I'm a complete neewb about these things.

(Oh - and I already read Water well).

TIA! SteveBaker 00:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The following is original research... All the well info that I know is either gained from TN or CT. Your milage may vary given that you're in TX.

• The cost of drilling a well is variable on how deep they have to go, the company that you use, and what they have to go through to get to potable water. A friend of mine in TN had a well dug. Houses around him were averaging about 100' I think (this was four years ago so I might be a little off with the figures). So the company gave him an estimate on 200'. He was apparently putting his house in a bad spot since they had to go down at least twice that amount until they got enough water. You can apparently get water from one well and then dig another one 50' from the first and have to go a lot deeper to get the same amount of water.
• Yes, they can run dry. My in-laws in CT have a well and it's not uncommon for them to go for a few days in the summer with barely enough water to take a quick shower. Most of the people around them get their water from the main city supply but they're on a well which doesn't go as deep as the city's wells. So when people fill their pools, water their lawns, etc. and it's hot without a lot of rain for a spell, it can go dry. They have just found ways to work through it and conserve where they can.
• While in TN, I had a reservoir tank of maybe fifty gallons. Note: I was a half mile from my nearest neighbor so I never had problems with getting enough water because there was nobody else around using it all up.
• The water should be safe to drink. You can get it tested and I believe the drilling company will do some tests when they strike water to make sure it's at least potable. They may not take hardness of the water into account in their tests, so you would have to talk to them about that if hard water is a concern. Back to my in-laws well, they recently had to put in a fairly expensive filtration system because their water was found to have e-coli in it. I saw the system a couple months back and it takes up maybe 25-30 sqft. of space in their basement between the reservoir and the sanitation systems and such. Part of the system has a UV light integrated into it. Something about e-coli not being able to live with too much UV. I'm not sure of the specifics.
• I had to replace the pump on my well once (actually twice since the first one I bought was bad and it died after about 15 minutes of use). Yes, it does sit at the bottom of the well. Basically, you'll have a small well house above ground (usually looks like a welding gas tank turned upside down, maybe a foot in diameter and 18" high) which keeps the rain and such from getting to the electrical wiring. Under the cover, which you can just pick right up off the ground to get at the pump, you'll have an electrical box where your power comes from the house and then goes down the well. You'll also have the water line. In TX, I doubt you'll have to worry much about the water freezing here but it can be an issue in northern climates. There is plumbing that comes from your house, usually buried a foot or so, it comes out of the ground and into the well house. Then there's a U bend in the pipe (mine was PVC) and then it goes down the well to where the pump is. When the pump goes out, you disconnect the pipe, disconnect the wiring that follows the pipe down to the pump, and pull the pipe and pump up. If it's really deep, you may not be able to do this yourself since the pipe and pump can get heavy. Mine was ~50' and it wasn't that hard but having someone help made it a bit easier the second time. After pulling it up, you just set the whole pipe down in your yard and replace the pump. That's the easy part. Basically cut the old pump off, disconnect the wires, fit the new pump on (since mine was PVC pipe, it was just glued on with a connecting ring from what I remember), reattach the wires, seal the connection in a water tight sleeve of some sort (hardware/plumbing supply store will have this), and then lower the pump and pipe with the wires taped to the side of the pipe every few feet back down into your well. While you're at it, you may want to replace the wires that run down the well. It'll only be a few bucks for the new wire but it beats having old wiring that you have to replace six months later. I'm not that mechanically inclined and the whole removal, replacement, and lowering of the pump back down into the well took maybe an hour.
• As far as distance from a septic system, you'd have to check your local building codes about that. I've never had to deal with that.

I hope this helps and I'll be happy to answer what questions I can. Dismas|^(talk) 01:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

With regard to "UV light", see germicidal lamp.

Atlant 12:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks guys! That's great info.

So one important 'take away' message is that I'd want to set up the well far from neighbours wells (and septic tanks!) - another is that maintaining the pump isn't that hard. One reason I asked about the storage tank was because I wondered at what rate the pump supplies water. I presume it has some kind of a float valve in the storage tank to activate it? If there is plenty of water in the well, is it possible that I could use water faster than it could fill it? (eg if I had to top up my swimming pool because of evaporation - which takes maybe 40 minutes at full flow from mains water). I'm trying to imagine whether I need an ENORMOUS storage tank to cover the situation where the well dries out for a couple of weeks in summer or something. If I did that - and still ran out - are there services where I could buy a tanker-truck load of water and have them refill my storage tank? I mean, you could switch to bottled water for drinking - maybe I should use my swimming pool as a reservoir for emergency toilet-flushing and showers? I'm just trying to figure out how people cope with the inevitable problems. SteveBaker 17:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Here in northern New England, most home wells have a small storage tank inside the house, but its purpose is more about regulating pressure than storing a backup supply of water. The tank usually is styled like an expansion tank, feeding water from the bottom and compressing air that's trapped above the surface of the water. The well pump is switched on and off by a pressure switch. When you begin to draw water, the tank supplies it, the trapped air expands, and the pressure slowly drops. When it reaches the lower threshold of the switch, the pump is energized and, assuming the pump can supply more water than you're drawing, the pressure begins to rise as the trapped air is re-compressed. Eventually, the pressure reaches the upper threshold of the switch and the pump is switched off. (Note that the pressure switch has adjustable hysteresis.) The cycle will repeat for as long as you;re drawing water, with the water pressure varying from the switch's "off point" to its "on point" and back again.

(My house doesn't have a well, but because I'm high on a hill, the town water supply reaches me at a pretty low pressure, so I have a jet pump (shallow well pump) and exactly the sort of water tank/pressure switch arrangement that I've just described.)

Atlant 12:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The amount of water the well can supply, and the odds and consequences of it drying out, are very dependant on the aquifer you're drawing from. Out east, you may be drawing rain-fed groundwater, and the water level will fluctuate with rainfall. On the Great Plains, you're drawing the fossil water from the Ogallala Aquifer, and once your well goes dry, the only thing you can do is drill it deeper. Texas has both fossil and rain-fed aquifers, so you'll need to find out which you've got. --Carnildo 21:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

See the film, or read the book 'Mr Blandings builds his dream house'. Be sure not to employ Mr Tessander as your well digger!--88.109.197.227 06:47, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Name of song

There's this song I have in my head, but can't find. It is a rap/hip-hop duet by some not largely known rappers. The song came out around 2002 and I'm pretty sure it's called "Spitfire". It sounds like a Massari song, and he indeed does have a song so named. But that is not the song.

It goes something like "Spitfire, spitfire, spit far away...but where will I go, when the Earth is broke down.....ps. you're the only one!" Acceptable 01:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Orb-weavers

Does anybody know what species of orb-weavers live in the Lubbock, Texas region?

The Garden spider, and some nocturnal spiders. 205.240.144.180 19:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Try yellow garden spider. Shuttlebug 20:58, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

BMW 316i SE

does a 1995 bmw 316 i se consist of four wheel drive

The article says rear-wheel drive. Recury 16:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Soccer clubs

What are the three most successful soccer clubs in the United States? Thanks in advance. Thomas 8785 12:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Its difficult to compare, because there has beena number of different leagues and formats in US soccer history (see Category:Defunct United States soccer competitions for details). However if you are interested in the current format, Major League Soccer, then the information you require is at Major League Soccer records and statistics. The top three vary slightly depending on what criteria you choose to use to define success, but by most criteria the top two are D.C. United and Los Angeles Galaxy, followed most likely by Chicago Fire. Rockpocket 17:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you asking about the most successful clubs that are currently in existence? If you mean historically, then New York Cosmos probably should be considered. Corvus cornix 20:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Manual record players?

I was watching this video, and I was thinking, It wouldn't be that hard to make a record player that was hand powered. Has anyone manufactured these, and where could I buy one? A record player that was completely independent of electricity to work would be pretty cool to me -_L-- 13:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Err, yes. I think they were called gramophones (amongst other names) and were the forerunners of the later models which use an electric motor. You should be able to buy one in any good antique shop. See Phonograph, the Yankee term for these. (Bloody Edison stealing other people's inventions again...) --Tagishsimon (talk)

If you have a garden shed and a knack for invention you could modify the Clockwork radio. I think that is where Trevor Baylis came up with his. Lanfear's Bane

See Phonograph. In the 1870's phonographs were operated by turning a crank. There was considerable speed variation. They found that having a Flywheel helped to maintain a constant speed. If you build a system with a crank you will need a right-angle device to change the direction of the crank motion to the rotation of the record. Hardware stores have a right-angle drill attachment which also allows a gear-up of the speed. A flywheel should be in the system where it rotates as fast as possible, to do the most good. Perhaps the turntable itself could be the flywheel. A big improvement in phonographs was adding a motor, which was powered in various phonographs by a water powered engine connected to a water faucet, by an electric motor powered by batteries, or more successfully in the 19th century by a spring motor wound by a crank or key. I have some of these and they still work very well after about a hundred years of use. This motor would have a Governor (device) similar to those used on steam engines to regulate the speed. See also Gramophone record. Understand that any home-made record player will likely damage or wear out the record pretty quickly, so avoid trying to play any one's cherished old recordings, and make sure the record is not a rare or valuable one. There are many non-memorable records out there to experiment on. For a home built mechanical, hand operated phonograph I advise using 78 rpm records, because they have larger grooves than the microgrooves used on 33 rpm and 45 rpm records. 78 rpm records are widely available on EBAY and at second hand shops and charity thrift shops. They were often made of easily broken shellac, but they were also widely available in vinyl. A needle (properly called stylus) with a 3 mil radius is correct for 78 rpm and .7 mil is correct for 33 1/3 and 45 rpm. They are available on EBAY as at [2] although for some reason they want to call them .3 mil. If you use a paper cone or plastic cup as the reproducing horn, the older mechanical 3 mil 78 rpm needle can be simply stuck through the cup near the closed end so that is rests approximately vertical against the record. A more scientific player would use the lateral motion of the stylus in the groove to move a diaphragm back and forth, and have a horn connected to the diaphragm to basically act as an acoustic transformer and convey the sound out to the listeners. The 3 mil 78 stylus should never be used to play 33 1/3 or 45 rpm records. Edison 14:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

As I said, bloody Edison :) --Tagishsimon (talk)

There was no phonograph which recorded and played back sounds before Edison's. In this case it was an invention rather than an improvement. The gramaphone was an Edison cylinder phonograph with wax placed in the groves. The phonautograph made sound traces on smoked glass which could not be played back, although I would like to hear what one sounds like if scanned and processed into sound, I think it might lack even the high frequency response of the first phonograph. Edison 14:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

So was Edison the first person to wonder if his voice really sounded like that? Adam Bishop 15:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

If you want to go really minimalist, why not make your phonograph out of paper? Confusing Manifestation 04:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Owner of Wikimedia Foundation

Who owns the Wikimedia Foundation? The Wikimedia community? Jimbo Wales? Jet (talk) 18:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Uh, that's like asking who owns the Red Cross -nobody - they're both nonprofit foundations. Raul654 19:03, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Or does the community own it? Jet (talk) 20:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a non-profit, so people don't generally use the word "owned", but it is controlled by a board of trustees. You can find out about the foundation here, and about the board here. --TotoBaggins 20:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Why YouTube requires proprietary file formats for videos?

Why YouTube requires proprietary file formats for videos? I saw at the YouTube help page that YouTube accepts .WMV, .AVI, .MOV, and .MPG file formats. For audio they recommend MP3 for audio? Wikimedia projects do not accept these proprietary formats so we only accept .ogg because these formats are patented and requires a license to use these formats. Why? Jet (talk) 21:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

This is only a guess but it's probably because youtube is aiming to be easy to use, while Wikipedia is watching out for lawsuits as well. WMV, AVI, MOV, MPG, and MP3 are all extremely common compared to .ogg and other free formats. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 22:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not a matter of lawsuits, it's a matter of free and openness. Using closed formats would go against our principles like having to pay to read pages. In addition, files are normally pretty easy to change into other formats, so it's not really a problem. I know that if I were doing long term archiving- which you can consider Wikipedia- I'd use open formats --L-- 17:48, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I would wager that it's more of a simplicity issue from their standpoint. Everything that a user gets from Youtube to watch is reformatted in Adobe Flash Video (FLV) format, so all Youtube would have to do is transcode the uploaded videos. –Pakman044 07:18, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think any of those formats have any patent licensing enforced in order to use files of the formats. If anywhere the licensing would come into coding solutions used to convert to/from the formats, but that would be easy to get around by just buying software from someone who licensed it already. But even then I doubt it is an issue, since there are plenty of open source programs that can convert to and from those formats. The patent issue is not really a legal one in the sense that there is a set of real and likely legal consequences; it is more ideological than anything else. Personally I think it can be self-defeating — preferring formats which require non-standard software or buggy Java applets is not exactly democratizing knowledge, in my opinion, as the impediments to using said knowledge begin to rise pretty quickly so that only those rare folk who have a lot of free time and a lot of experience with computers can get them to work — even though I agree with the basic ideological tenets and especially with the stance that software should not be patentable. --24.147.86.187 21:54, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

See FFmpeg#Legal_status, the thing about ogg is that it is open-source, it is available to anyone that want to use it. Not so for WMV and MOV etc., where there are only binary codecs that only works on specific platforms. It is not so much of ideological reason but accessibility. If Wikimedia chose say MOV instead, all the vanilla Windows users will need to install Quicktime, and vice versa if they chose WMV. No matter what, you will need to install some kind of codec, and since ogg is available to anyone, it naturally became the de jure format. It is just that you may already have it, and being very self-centred about it, to complain about how something doesn't work for you so everyone else should fix it so it works for you. --antilived^{T | C | G} 00:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

SEAL shuffle

Per Navy Seals on the US navy SEALs, it mentions that BUD/S recruits develop a "SEAL shuffle" to help keep the salt from the ocean and sweat off their bodies. How does one perform the "SEAL shuffle"? Thanks. Acceptable 22:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

IANAS (I am not a SEAL), but from the description of "Hell Week shuffle" in the article, I recognize the walk from my army days. A good analogy for the walk is to imagine you are sunburned everywhere. Now try to walk quickly from one place to another. You walk slightly bow-legged and with your arms held slightly further away from the body than normal. Instead of a normal walking stride, you tend to shuffle along, taking shorter steps. Wet clothing doesn't glide smoothly across the skin as dry clothing does. Constant movement in wet clothing has the effect of causing chafing due to the increased friction. This shuffle keeps chafed skin from rubbing against wet clothing and provides more airflow which allows for quicker drying of soaked clothing. 152.16.188.107 04:01, 4 August 2007 (UTC)