Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 April 14

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

April 14

Translation of the name of a traditional Chinese song

The Ren Guang article has 《彩雲追月》 translated as Rosy Clouds Chasing the Moon.

Most sources translate it as Colourful Clouds Chasing the Moon or Colorful Clouds Chasing the Moon. I've also seen Silver Clouds Chasing the Moon. Is there any justification for using Rosy?

Thanks,
cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 15:40, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

The Chinese-English dictionaries I use in Pleco all translate 彩雲 as rosy cloud or pink cloud, although 彩色 is just colourful without specifying any specific hue. It kind of makes sense since various rosy or red shades are the only natural non-grey colour for clouds. —Kusma (talk) 18:40, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, as noted just above, being that clouds only take a rosy or orange hue, "rosy clouds" is a term that feels natural in English while "colourful clouds" seems forced and unintuitive. Thus "rosy clouds" is the superior translation.

The dictionary I consulted traced the origin of the term to a poem by Li Bai about an early morning journey, and given that the title of the work in question here has these clouds "chasing the moon", we can infer that the author intends to evoke the imagery of the dawn clouds in the west (which would have a rosy hue) chasing the setting moon beneath the horizon. Folly Mox (talk) 22:50, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining, though I don't fully agree that we should translate it into something more natural-sounding than something literal. I think Li Bai meant it to be rosy, he would have just used a specific term such as 紅潤 and not colourful. I'll leave the translation as is but leave a note on its talk page. Cheers, cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 15:59, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

彩 has better assonance within the line (as it rhymes with 白), and with the parallel antepenults in the second and third lines (一 and 啼, respectively). I'm not prepared to probe the mind of Li Bai here though. Folly Mox (talk) 00:25, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Mihara vs. Miyahara

If anyone here knows Japanese, I'm curious to know the difference between those surnames, as in the figure skaters Mai Mihara and Satoko Miyahara. The Japanese characters for those surnames look only half-alike (三原) vs. (宮原), but to our ears the words sound similar except for that "ya" in the middle. Does anyone know? I see that Mihara (surname) means "three plains", but there is no translation for Miyahara (surname). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:49, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

From what I can see, 宮 means shrine/ palace. Mi and miya wouldn't sound too much alike to Japanese ears. As the language is phonetically quite simple, the speakers would be attuned to the phonetic differences. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:23, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Do you know what the common character between the two names (原) would mean? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:35, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

"Meadow, plain, uncultivated field", apparently. It's actually quite easy to search for on Wiktionary and other places through copy-paste. Japanese family names (as they're natively initial, that designation might be better), like Swedish, are often based on two combined nature terms. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:51, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I'll give that a try. If Mihara means "three plains", then Miyahara might mean "shrine plain" or "plain shrine"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:12, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

My area is Chinese rather than Japanese, but I'll claim there's little encyclopaedic value in providing literal translations of surnames. In the native language they're not conceptualised as semantically meaningful on the same level as a regular word, just how in English we don't think of Harry Potter as "Harry the clay vessel artisan" or Boris Johnson as "Boris, son of John". Folly Mox (talk) 23:04, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I once told my stepmother that I was watching the last movie in which Mr Blackmarsh directed Mr Threeboats. She understood. —Tamfang (talk) 05:00, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

I'll add as evidence that at least in Chinese language dictionaries, a word that is also a surname will have a separate definition of the form "surname". They're semantically inequivalent like any other homogram. Folly Mox (talk) 23:25, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I was hoping to add a translation for "Miyahara", but it sounds more like the translation given for "Mihara" (uncited) might be incorrect or simplistic? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:29, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it's my contention that the literal translation of an East Asian surname outside of any meaningful context is too simplistic to be of value. If the etymology of the name lends itself to some deeper understanding of say geographical distribution or historical significance then it might be worth including, but providing a possible translation of what the characters used to write a surname might mean in some other context is at best trivia, and contributes to misconceptions as to how surnames are perceived as lexemes. Folly Mox (talk) 04:02, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I have now deleted the literal translation of "Miraha" from its surname page. If you think I shouldn't have done that, you could revert it. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:48, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! I agree with that removal. Folly Mox (talk) 06:57, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Resolved

Well, personally, I'd say it's unnecessary to add a translation for articles about the name bearers, but it might have some interest in the articles about the names, themselves. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:38, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Hear, hear! The etymology of a name illustrates a feature of the culture's customs as of when the name was coined. —Tamfang (talk) 05:08, 21 April 2023 (UTC)