Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2022 March 22

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March 22

A Swedish surname

The articles Swedish phonology and Swedish orthography don't help me much to work out how to pronounce Oscar Reutersvärd's surname. Perhaps this just means that I'm rather thick. (Being rather thick might also explain why I can't quite grasp "there are much older examples, e.g. Hogarth's Satire on False Perspective, in addition to more recent well known example of the Penrose triangle and some others".) But anyway, how does one pronounce "Reutersvärd"?

(Anyone who actually knows and is fluent in IPA might beneficially add the pronunciation of the whole name, "Oscar" included, to the article. Which I recommend not only for its impossible figures but also for the somewhat disturbing photo "Oscar Reutersvärd with two of his friends".) -- Hoary (talk) 03:41, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

It's pronounced as though it were spelt röjtersvärd, which I can't write in IPA. DuncanHill (talk) 04:01, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, DuncanHill. Then perhaps it's something like røːjtersvɛːrd ? (One thing I do learn from the phonology article is that Swedish /r/ seems to vary at least as much as English /r/.) -- Hoary (talk) 08:19, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Aha, wikt:värd says /vɛːɖ/. -- Hoary (talk) 08:25, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Is there a source for how the ⟨eu⟩ should be pronounced? It is not a recognized monophthong or diphthong in Swedish orthography. In the loanword neutral, the combination corresponds to /eːɵ/. According to the online Svensk ordbok the pronunciation of ⟨eu⟩ in greuelpropaganda is /ɔj/.  --Lambiam 09:34, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

The -värd (or -svärd?) bit should rather be [væːɖ] as the /r/ phoneme triggers both lowering of the preceding /ɛː/ and retroflexion of the following /d/. The Reuter- part is more puzzling as ⟨eu⟩ is indeed not normally found in Swedish words. It might originally come from German (just like greuelpropaganda). I think there are many examples for Swedish noble families having German surnames. --147.142.218.189 (talk) 09:39, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

P.S. sv:Suzanne Reuter gives the pronunciation as [ˈrœjtər]. --147.142.218.189 (talk) 09:51, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, all. [rœjtərsvæːɖ], perhaps? -- Hoary (talk) 13:36, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, Reuter alone also exists as a surname, probably from some German variant, although 'eu' would rather be pronounced like [ɔʏ̯] in Standard German. As I could make out, the German surname might originally have meant cavalryman/ rider or land-clearer. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:04, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

I would expect the s to be more like ʂ, because of the r before it. DuncanHill (talk) 14:27, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

I guess that might depend on it being pronounced with a stop between r and s or not. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:19, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

I.e. in compound words such as burspråk (bay window) and mursten (tile brick), I think it might be pronounced more like [r's], although that depends on how carefully the speaker enunciates. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:52, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Reuter+svärd instead of reuters+värd? Listen to burspråk and mursten on the SO. DuncanHill (talk) 20:58, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

The source mentioned earlier by DuncanHill ("uttal: röjtersvärd") points indeed to [œj]; compare möjlig /²mœjlɪ(ɡ)/ and slöjd /slœjd/.  --Lambiam 14:44, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

There is a Reuterswärd family society, perhaps contact could be made with them. DuncanHill (talk) 20:58, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Good morning (my time), all! Thank you for your continuing efforts. A couple of things that I do learn from the relevant articles (Swedish phonology, etc) are that, unsurprisingly, pronunciation varies quite a bit with area (as well as with age and perhaps social class, etc), and that there is no single, unambiguous Standard Swedish. Thus a narrow transcription (even if comprehensible) may well be misleading, but identifying the phonemes to which the phones are best abstracted for a broad transcription sounds like a job for a Swedish-proficient phonologist. -- Hoary (talk) 22:48, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm amused to read that Swedish wasn't even the official language of Sweden until 2009. Keeping their options open, I see.  Card Zero  (talk) 02:40, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

This YouTube video has Oscar's sons discussing his work. If anyone has the time to listen to it (24 minutes), they might mention their surname. Alansplodge (talk) 14:58, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Also here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAa4dpUEt4A&ab_channel=Tehnolo%C5%A1ko-metalur%C5%A1kifakultetUB --79.36.50.78 (talk) 11:53, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

So the second video seems to confirm the pronunciation [ˈrœjtəʂvæːɖ]. --2A02:8071:8C2:AF00:1D68:56B3:DDF7:AC7E (talk) 10:39, 26 March 2022 (UTC)