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Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 April 27

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April 27

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The consonant E

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How frequently does this appear in English?? I'm sure most words that feature it feature it before a u, including the name Eunice and the continent Europe. Can you think of more words that feature it?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:14, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In neither of those words is the "E" acting as a consonant by itself. The digraph "eu" is being pronounced like the word "you", but as with all digraphs, neither letter in isolation carries the phonological information. Think about other digraphs like "ng" in "song" or the "ch" in "check" for example, where neither the "c" nor the "h" in isolation carries any part of the meaning of the digraph "ch"., which can only be understood together. This is different from other common letter clusters that can be understood individually, such as the "pl" at the start of "plate" or "plush" or "pluto". In that case, each letter represents a distinct phonological sound that just happen together. In words like "Europe", the Voiced palatal approximant ("yod" or "y") sound is not assigned to the "E". Rather the "eu" cluster is treated as the sound cluster /jʌ/ (yuh) or it's other form /ju/ (you) which is so common in English that it is conceived natively as a single sound. Other English sounds that have this "one single sound which is really a sound cluster" include the common english "J" sound /dʒ/ and most of the vowel sounds, which are diphthongs. --Jayron32 18:31, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at Etymology Online, most of those "eu" words appear to come from Greek roots. Words with just the "u" but pronounced the same as the "eu" items (like the word "you") appear to come from Latin via French. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:45, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That is because our long u sound is an alteration of the French U; the sound that arose from Old English long u is the ou digraph as in the word out. Georgia guy (talk) 20:32, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's how English is, yep. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:35, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Georgia_guy -- historically it's not a "consonantal e" in any meaningful sense, but a falling-sonority diphthong (the usual type) which flipped to become a rising-sonority diphthong... AnonMoos (talk) 20:55, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Term for Extra Middle Names

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Many years ago (probably in the 60s), I was working on a database for the government and they used a term for extra middle names, like John Jacon Jingleheimer Schmidt. I would put John in "first name", Jacob in "middle name" and "Jingleheimer" in the "xxxx name" array. I remember looking it up in my dictionary and it was in fact a term for "extra middle names." Now, I can't find anything other than pages that complain about the world forcing them to only honor three names on government forms. Is there still a term that is accepted? 97.82.165.112 (talk) 19:14, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've looked without result for this. It's of interest to me because, when I changed my own name legally a few years ago, I chose to replace my middle name with two new ones. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:52, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Some synonyms: extra, additional, adjunct, other, supplemental, supplementary, secondary, further, auxiliary, second, subsequent. Might help. Jmar67 (talk) 22:39, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Are "middle names" even a thing? One can have one or more forenames, and in some cultures, for example the Cornish, it is not at all unusual for a person to be known by a second or subsequent forename, not the first. So, for example, "Frank Martin Trepolpen" would be known as Martin, and think you had mistaken him for another if you addressed him as "Frank". DuncanHill (talk) 22:47, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Likewise, German passports give a series of "first" names (Vornamen) and indicate the name by which the person is called (Rufname), not necessarily the first one listed. And many Germans interpret an English middle name as part of the last name, which in the U.S. at least is not common. Jmar67 (talk) 22:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Unhyphenated double surnames are less rare in Britain, from Lloyd George to Lloyd Webber. --Tamfang (talk) 01:39, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, middle names are a thing, in most Western countries. The default is that the given name is the name by which the person is known; the middle name(s) are part of the legal identity; and the surname is the name under which the person is listed. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:19, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There are many cases in my family where a son or daughter was named for the corresponding-gender parent, and then they ended up calling the child by the middle name to avoid confusion! <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 03:06, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say that in America the practice of "going by" one's middle name rather than one's first name is ... certainly not the most common practice, but not so rare that I'd call it "unusual". My grandma went by her middle name just because she didn't particularly like her first name. My brother-in-law uses his first name professionally but his middle name among friends and family. There are endless variations. --Trovatore (talk) 19:19, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The British monarchy has endless examples of monarchs taking one of their middle names (and there was usually quite a few to choose from) as their regnal name. The current queen is an exception, but George VI was Albert Frederick Arthur George; Edward VII was Albert Edward; Queen Victoria was Alexandrina Victoria; and so on. There has long been speculation that when Charles, Prince of Wales (christened Charles Philip Arthur George) becomes king, he'll choose to be known as George VII rather than Charles III. But who knows, he could be Philip I, or Arthur I. Or Denzil I. Or Nigel I. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:33, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think he should definitely choose to be known as King Arthur. But is there a watery tart to lob a sword at him? Otherwise what basis has the system of government? --Trovatore (talk) 22:37, 29 April 2020 (UTC) [reply]
You may recall that Arthur acceded by pulling a sword out of a stone (or anvil). The Lady of the Lake event was a later episode. All true Cornishmen know that the lake in question is Dozmary Pool. Alansplodge (talk) 12:25, 30 April 2020 (UTC) [reply]
Well, you know, there are different versions of the legends. I expect yours may be as told in Le morte d'Artur? Mine hews closer to the account in Mønti Pythøn ik den Hølie Gräilen. --Trovatore (talk) 01:52, 1 May 2020 (UTC) [reply]
Dozmary's Baby? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:54, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is he allowed to choose to be Dweezil I, Eagle-Eye I or Moon Unit I? JIP | Talk 19:34, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:JIP, I believe so. Mind you, the views of the prime minister of the day would be made known, with a strength proportionate to the degree of the monarch's proposed diversion from the norm. Such a regnal name as one of the Zappaesque ones you cite would certainly bring the monarchy into public ridicule, and that's a legitimate concern of the government. But at the end of the day, if the king persisted, I know of no constitutional reason why he could not have his way. Heaven forbid. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:31, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I see the existence of varying numbers of forenames as the norm, and the concept of "middle name" one forced on society by simplistic computer databases and government forms. I guess that at least one positive that's happened in my lifetime is that the term "Christian name{s)" has almost disappeared, at least in my world. HiLo48 (talk) 23:35, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, as in what one was "christened" with, even for non-Christians nowadays, I suppose. You're right, it's pretty well fallen out of use. One funny thing is that it's mentioned in 2001: A Space Odyssey, and I think by the actual year 2001 it was already pretty much obsolete. <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 03:06, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
They still used it in England, when I visited in 1987 (and I gather that it had little or nothing to do with a person's spiritual views). I had really not encountered it in America, so it took me a bit by surprise. --Trovatore (talk) 03:09, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That might explain why it turns up in 2001, which was partly scripted by the Britisher Arthur C. Clarke. <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 03:21, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The movie was also filmed in the UK, and Kubrick at the time had also been living in the UK. Though born in America, Kubrick had been based in England for quite a while, living in London and working mostly out of Shepperton Studios. Pretty much everything he did from Lolita through Barry Lyndon was filmed there, excepting B-roll and second-unit work done in other locations by his second unit team. --Jayron32 12:30, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
According to our article Middle name, the term "middle name" has been in use in America since 1835, so its definitely not a consequence of computer databasing. Iapetus (talk) 12:47, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is what I'm finding. Instead of finding the term for names that fall between the first and last names, I am finding arguments that there's no "middle" name. Sure, there is a first and last. Sure, there are names that fall between those. But, there's no way some people will accept that names between the first and last are in the middle between the two. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 11:32, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There will always be those who dislike common usage. <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 12:59, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In the UK, "middle name" is used officially. This form from the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, an organisation of the Government of the United Kingdom, says: "Driver details - Surname: First name: Middle name(s)". Alansplodge (talk) 14:23, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The thing is, this is a messy field of categorization, and we're trying to force a simple system that may meet the largest number of cases which does not fit for a still large number of cases that don't fit. The standard English categorization is for [first name] [middle name] [last name], with the caveat that any of those categories can also take multiple words; I have known people with un-hyphenated first names, un-hyphenated middle names, and un-hyphenated last names, and there are some people who just don't have any middle names, and in some cultural backgrounds, with no last names either (Indonesian). And cultures (Hungarian, Chinese, etc.) where the normal order is reversed (family name is first, personal name is second). And cultures with optional last names that are official, but not in common use (matronymics in Spanish-speaking cultures). Thus, when faced with a name like "Peter James David", without any context or explanation, is his first name "Peter James" and his last name "David"? Is his first name Peter, his middle name James, and his last name David? His first name "Peter" and his last name "James David"? I can come up with real examples of every usage. If I see written: "Peter James David" on a form, and it's my job as a data entry employee, to enter that name into my three fields, how do I do that? Knowing that if I screw it up, I may end up making the same person into two different people, or something like that. --Jayron32 16:01, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Off topic aside to Jayron: I've always been amused and fascinated by names such as "Peter James David" where any of the three could be in any position and would still seem perfectly normal. "Peter David James", "James Peter David", "David James Peter", etc are all names you would not really be surprised to find. My favorite example is the actor Jason David Frank who played the character of Tommy Oliver in Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. He doesn't even get a "real" last name in fiction. --Khajidha (talk) 17:28, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • A bunch of US Presidents also fit this bill, particularly these days when names that were once exclusively surnames are now routinely used as given names: Chester Alan Arthur, Benjamin Harrison, William Henry Harrison, Abraham Lincoln, James Madison and Franklin Pierce. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:32, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vanishingly close to 100% of the given names (first or middle) of "Washington" postdate George Washington, and likely ultimately derive from his name. Prior to George Washington giving it prominence, the name was mostly known as a rather small, insignificant town, Washington, Tyne and Wear. --Jayron32 16:32, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a small, insignificant town" - I wonder what yardstick you're using, Jayron. I was expecting to read about a village of maybe 3,500 people, not a substantial town of 67,000. Many cities have lower population than that. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:00, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I do not disagree, but it doesn't remotely help get to the answer. Many years ago, I looked up a word in the dictionary. The defition was the names used between a person's first and last names. But, I can't find that word now. Arguing about the usage of middle names doesn't help find the word. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 17:23, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Continued discussion about the subject might trigger a memory of that phantom term. <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 17:49, 28 April 2020
97.82.165.112 -- if you want to coin a word for this using Greek roots, you could try "polymesonymous", but if there's an existing word to describe having many middle names, it would appear to be rather obscure... AnonMoos (talk) 19:03, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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