Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 December 17

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December 17

Neutral speaking

Hello all of you, :), you know I want to know something. I am slowly improving my English skills, it will take time, but mostly in the speech because I don't live among people who speak English and my question is, the professor told me I can speak in a "neutral accent", like pronouncing every word by pronouncing letter by letter. Is that odd? at least understandable?, Among the many health issues that affect me, one within my spectrum is speech issues. In Spanish I must be calm when speaking or otherwise I get tongue-tied, and same happens in English, that's why I can't speak rapidly in any accent, especially American. Hope I could get across what I mean to you. Thank you have an extraordinary end of year! :) -- Iván. --CoryGlee (talk) 19:02, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Accent and speed are two different things. Your teacher's mention of a 'neutral accent', in my opinion, means that your vocabulary and pronunciation could focus on a 'middle ground' between standard English, international English and the many dialects of English. As for speed, speaking slowly and articulating clearly at first gives you time to think about what you want to say and how to say it — if you don't know how to pronounce a word, it's better to say it anyway, as it's written: an educated listener will understand you and a helpful listener will correct you. Then slowly you will become confident in your own knowledge of the language. Rome wasn't built in a day. Wakari07 (talk) 21:25, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

No native English speaker will ever "pronounce every word by pronouncing letter by letter." In fact English spelling can be so variable that it's not possible to even predict easily the sounds individual letters will represent in a word. Unlike Spanish or Italian, where letters in words are pronounced almost 100% the same as they are written every time. If you are still learning English it would be a mistake to try and speak quickly. It's much more important for you to speak "deliberately", so that you can make yourself understood. But never "letter by letter." 86.187.164.164 (talk) 21:52, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

To add to that, British or English Standard English will often drop letters that other dialects will pronounce. E.g. in Scottish English, "February" is pronounced as spelt ("Feb roo ary"), but in Standard English English it is "Feb you ary". Most of England also tends to drop the "r" at the end of words (whereas Scotland, parts of England, and much of America pronounces it). It also seems to be increasingly common in English English to drop (or at least mute) the letter "t" in the middle or end of words. Iapetus (talk) 11:10, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you both for your kind responses!, I'll keep up to my best! :) --CoryGlee (talk) 22:29, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

It's grim down North

Does everyone think of North being "up", or do people who live in countries in the Southern Hemisphere think of South as being "up"? 86.187.164.164 (talk) 21:44, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Up is where your head is when you're standing. The orientation of a map is only convention. Wakari07 (talk) 22:46, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Down here in Oz, North is generally up, and South is down. But country people often talk of going "up to the city" regardless of where their town is in relation to the metropolis. Someone who lives half way between Sydney and Brisbane would go "up" to both places. We always go down to the mall, the shops, the beach or the river, never up. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:49, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

In Adelaide, we always go "up the Murray" or "up the river" when going there. I don't know if this is just my family. We just go "to the city" or "to town"; I've never heard a direction used. TrogWoolley (talk) 11:55, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Ah, but you're already in Adelaide. Go out to Mt Gambier or Kingston or Coober Pedy and you would find something different, I suspect. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:17, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

So yes, the orientation of a map is only convention. But is this convention equally common across all the countries of the world? When people all over the world imagine the earth spinning in space, annually traversing around the sun, is the North pole always at the top? Presumably that mental image dominates because of the domination of Western culture, set down during the voyages of discovery from Europe in the 15th century onwards? 86.187.162.236 (talk) 22:59, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Going "up" to a big city is pretty common and old. As with the first line of a song about Tipperary, "Up to mighty London came an Irishman one day..." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:19, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

But sometimes people go up the country. HiLo48 (talk) 01:27, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Have you met Stuart McArthur? He's Australian too.—eric 01:35, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Do you go down to the high street? (if Australia has high streets) —Tamfang (talk) 01:25, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Australia not only has High Streets, it has a [High Street Road]! It's an undulating road. I'm sure some people go down to it. HiLo48 (talk) 02:07, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

My county has at least three Foo Street Roads, which extend Foo Streets that lie within an incorporated city. At least one of them is independently numbered, leading to confusion. —Tamfang (talk) 03:35, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

The north=up convention is also relatively new. Germany is traditionally oriented along the Rhine river, so Upper Germany, and the Upper Rhine, are in the South. Cheers ⌘ _hugarheimur 23:43, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

And also, "Oberbayern" (Upper Bavaria) is south of Lower Bavaria; refers to elevation, not geographic convention. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 00:51, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

And Upper Canada vs. Lower Canada. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:14, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

And Lower Egypt is the Nile Delta. —Tamfang (talk) 03:35, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

I used to contribute to a snow sports discussion forum here in Australia. All our snowfields are south of Sydney. I don't live there. I live even further south. I never got used to the posters from Sydney persistently declaring they were heading "down to the snow". HiLo48 (talk) 01:22, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

In Tamil, the words for "up" and "west" (மேல்) and for "down" and "east" (கீழ்) are identical. This makes sense in Tamil Nadu, where the areas of higher elevation are to the west and the sea is to the east. --Jbuchholz (talk) 10:30, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

In South Africa when speaking one would generally say that from Kimberley, Northern Cape you are going down to Cape Town, up to Pretoria, over to Durban and over to Port Nolloth. Thanks. Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 10:40, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

See also South-up map orientation. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:51, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Also Beatus map and T and O map which had east at the top (I suppose the origin of "orientation"). Alansplodge (talk) 20:26, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I would guess that orientation is older than maps. In Sanskrit iirc, 'right' can mean 'south'. —Tamfang (talk) 01:23, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

By ancient convention, one goes "up" to either Oxford or Cambridge and when you are there you go "down" to anywhere else; hence the famous spoonerism by Dr William Spooner: "Having tasted two worms, you will leave by the next town drain" ("having wasted two terms, you will leave by the next down train").

And in London, we go "up West" to the glitzy West End and "down East" to the less salubrious East End, regardless of one's starting point. Alansplodge (talk) 17:46, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

"Deep down in Louisiana close to New Orleans... 93.136.115.7 (talk) 01:40, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

"...Way back up in the woods among the evergreens..." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:02, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

• I would be remiss not to mention the concept of Down East, which said Wikipedia article confines the usage to Maine and The Maritimes, but which is also used in other parts of the Eastern Seaboard, for example Down East (North Carolina). --Jayron32 17:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt. But in English, are 'up' and 'upper' generally thought of the same way, perhaps not. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:13, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

  I lived in Canberra for a few decades. There's a suburb there named Downer. Locals often called it "Upper Downer", and some even elevated it to "Upper Downer Heights". :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:10, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Have a look at South-up map orientation. Mathglot (talk) 12:32, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Upper Egypt is upper because it's at a higher elevation. Similar with placenames in other regions situated on the north slopes of a mountain (range), such as neighborhoods of München. 93.136.115.7 (talk) 01:37, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I believe in contrast to the prior post, Upper Egypt was where the Nile flowed from and Lower Egypt where the Nile flowed to. Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 12:33, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. As with e.g. Republic of Upper Volta. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:40, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

• In Vietnamese, to go North is to go "out" (ra), while to go South is to go "in" (vào). This seems to be a legacy of the northern region being called "Outer Expanse" while the southern region being called "Inner Expanse". DHN (talk) 18:09, 23 December 2019 (UTC)