Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 August 26

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August 26

"Reclaim Hong Kong, revolution of our era"

The title is a translation of a HK protest slogan found in the English-speaking press (example). I saw an article somewhere (can't find it, sorry) according to which the original Cantonese for "reclaim Hong Kong" has some ambiguity and could be understood as a claim for independence or larger autonomy. Is that correct?

As an aside, the article 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests does not mention that slogan (maybe it should). Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 12:30, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

This article? "The protesters are now calling their movement a revolution to "Reclaim Hong Kong," a Chinese expression that can also mean "Free Hong Kong," depending on context." Or this? "...part of the slogan is echoed by the expression "bury one's parent". Consequently, when the protesters ...are also simultaneously and paranomastically exclaiming that they are against the death of Hong Kong". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.67.193.176 (talk) 21:03, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Old English to old French

I know the Latin root for south was "meridianam" or "auster", depending on the context, but the modern romance languages have "sur", "sud" or "sul", though "sud" is more common.

I had always assumed that there was a vulgar latin word "sud" that was at the origin of all these cognates, but no, it came from English into French, and then from French it was borrowed by all the other romance languages, even languages as far from France as Romanian and Portuguese!!!

That was amazing, but here is my question: I want to understand more about old French borrowing from Old English, presumably it was during the Angevin empire or later in the hundred years' war? Any good pointers on the extent / list of words borrowed from English to French in that period would be appreciated. --Lgriot (talk) 14:31, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Auster was literally the south wind (sometimes with extended meaning of "south" as a direction), but the adjective form australis was probably more common in the geographic meaning. Meridies meant "noon", and also sometimes "south", since in the Northern Hemisphere, the sun is at its southernmost at noon. Meridianam is the feminine accusative singular inflected form of an adjective derived from meridies.

The Wiktionary entry https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sud supports the Old English origin idea. Maybe it's because this word shows the Anglo-Frisian disappearance of nasals before fricatives (as also in "tooth", "five", "goose" etc.), but in this particular word, a lot more Germanic languages than English and Frisian seem to have dropped the nasal: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/sunþrą ... -- AnonMoos (talk) 16:17, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

This is tough to research, since so many lists (like List of French words of English origin) contain almost exclusively modern words. Even lists like Mots français d’origine anglaise that contain pre-modern words borrowed from English like bifteck (steak), rosbif (roast beef), bouledogue (bulldog) and paquebot (packet boat) don't go back as far as Old English. But try these search strings in google: "ancien anglais" site:https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/ and "anglo-normand" site:https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/ and a few more come up: nord (north) and norrois (Norse), ouest (west), étai (forestay), loquet (latch), mouette (seagull) (from Old English word for mauve), bateau (boat), and strangely, gourmet (from Old English word for boy). 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:40, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks 70.67, that is a really good tip. Any linguists/historians know about the period more precisely? Is it the twelth's century? the first half of the 15th century? Somewhere in the middle? Throughout the whole period of the English kings holding lands in France? --Lgriot (talk) 14:12, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Pleasure! ancien anglais (English article) is 5-6th to 12th centuries, and anglo-normand (English article) was from 11th to early 15th century. Wish I knew of a French dictionary that gives exact dates like the OED does. Larousse gives some, but not this far back. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:56, 27 August 2019 (UTC)