Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 August 15
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August 15 edit
When did an "icon" become "iconic". edit
When I was at school in the 1960s and 1970s, I'm fairly certain that an icon only referred to an Orthodox religious image - you may correct me if I'm wrong. Is its wider use as a best example of something connected to the little computer screen symbols, and if so, which came first? Alansplodge (talk) 14:31, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- This is from the Greek, which means simply "likeness". Of course, in the Orthodox Church it has a specialised meaning. 2A00:23C4:7997:6F00:BC9D:5A89:EEB8:D485 (talk) 15:29, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- The OED has a citation for the sense of 'A person or thing regarded as a representative symbol, esp. of a culture or movement; a person, institution, etc., considered worthy of admiration or respect' from 1952, which long predates the computer sense (first citation 1982). The 1952 citation is about F Scott Fitzgerald's The Diamond as Big as the Ritz. For the metaphorical use of 'iconic', the earliest citation is from 1976, referring to 'Robert Smithson's iconic "Spiral Jetty"'. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:43, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- When I checked the OED before posting I found references going back to 1572. 2A00:23C4:7997:6F00:BC9D:5A89:EEB8:D485 (talk) 15:50, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- 'The OED’s first citation in writing for “iconic” is from Thomas Blount’s dictionary Glossographia (1656): “Iconic, belonging to an Image, also lively pictured' [1] (so not really the modern sense of the word). Alansplodge (talk) 16:24, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- When I checked the OED before posting I found references going back to 1572. 2A00:23C4:7997:6F00:BC9D:5A89:EEB8:D485 (talk) 15:50, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- The computer and traffic-sign sense of the word "icon" was probably influenced by the writings of Charles Sanders Peirce, whether directly or indirectly. According to the "II. Icon, index, symbol" section of that article, Peirce was using the word "icon" in his special meaning as early as 1867, though ordinary people in Western societies didn't commonly confront sets of visual "icon" signs (contrived by graphic designers) in their daily lives until well into the 20th century... AnonMoos (talk) 16:18, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- Some "icons", in the modern sense, existed long ago. There's the Rod of Asclepius/caduceus, for example, or many symbols from heraldry (some of them on the sinister side [2]). SinisterLefty (talk) 01:45, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, but in earlier decades we might have said "emblem" or "symbol". The word "iconic" is bandied about very frequently these days; 1976 seems to have been the start of it. Alansplodge (talk) 12:01, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Some "icons", in the modern sense, existed long ago. There's the Rod of Asclepius/caduceus, for example, or many symbols from heraldry (some of them on the sinister side [2]). SinisterLefty (talk) 01:45, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
![[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo#/media/File:Alfa_Romeo_logo.png){kind=link}
- SinisterLefty -- Consciously-designed sets of symbols which are visually meaningful, but not simply artistic drawings, occurred later. Isotype dates from 1925. According to our Traffic sign article, "In 1909, nine European governments agreed on the use of four pictorial symbols, indicating 'bump', 'curve', 'intersection', and 'grade-level railroad crossing'", while "intensive work on international road signs" started in 1926... AnonMoos (talk) 01:12, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks everyone. Curiously, I read The Diamond as Big as the Ritz at secondary school, but had forgotten all about it. Alansplodge (talk) 16:27, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- I don't have access to oed.com right now, but I'm under the impression that a very important meaning of icon (or legend) is "person who gets at least a few hits at Google". Now that the meaning has been so devalued, I can only get excited about legendary icons (example) and iconic legends (example). -- Hoary (talk) 03:33, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
- In their draft additions of June 2001, the OED has the definition: "A person or thing regarded as a representative symbol, esp. of a culture or movement; a person, institution, etc., considered worthy of admiration or respect. Frequently with modifying word." with cites from 1952 to 2000. Dbfirs 07:07, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- ... sorry, just noticed that this is mentioned above. Dbfirs 07:09, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- Don't apologise; it's interesting that this definition wasn't included until 2001. Alansplodge (talk) 14:35, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- ... sorry, just noticed that this is mentioned above. Dbfirs 07:09, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
- In their draft additions of June 2001, the OED has the definition: "A person or thing regarded as a representative symbol, esp. of a culture or movement; a person, institution, etc., considered worthy of admiration or respect. Frequently with modifying word." with cites from 1952 to 2000. Dbfirs 07:07, 18 August 2019 (UTC)